PlaneShift
Gameplay => In-Game Roleplay Events => Topic started by: Damola on February 15, 2015, 02:36:25 am
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Hello!
Just as an announcement for anyone who took part in the event but didn´t notice what I wrote to gossip – and also as an more in-depth explaination on why I handle it this way:
ICly Damola did not take part in the event and thus wasn´t blown off by a GM from the bridge and thus also didn´t die.
Why?
Cause for Damola´s character it would be totally inconsistent to go onto such a bridge and let a strong way blow her into death. She is very cautious and she actually still fears DR ICly quite much. There is no way that she would risk her life so easily without any apparent need to hasten that much.
What happened?
I read the warning about the wind, but as player didn´t recognize that the wind would be that strong that it would threaten Damola´s life. I was about to play Damola as cautious, watching whether the defensive wind spell may have worked, stepped back a bit, but before I could finish writing that a GM already blew Damola off into DR. Actually she fell down with me having written half of the reaction.
I didn´t feel like having had enough time to RP my reaction to the wind thing. I´d expected some kind escalation of the warning like "A strong wind comes up and the bridge staggers dangeriously" or something like that together with some realistic time to RP any response to it before Damola being blown of with no chance to react it. For me it as a digital "You are dead". Thats not much fun to RP. And unlike that last time that happened to a char of mine in a pen and paper RP Damola didn´t accuse a God where something like this actually can be realistic.
I tried playing as if Damola really died there this way the GM have blown her off, but it just didn´t work for me, so I am doing what worked before, I am taking Damola out of this RP completely. ICly she wasn´t there, she didn´t die in a way that would be totally inconsistent to her cautious character. Sure she is much into helping others, but without need she wouldn´t risk her life that easily.
This is not up for discussion for me. I will play her this way, whether you respect it or not.
What would probably have worked for me would be:
1) The wind blow would have been totally unexpectable and Damola wouldn´t have had any chance to react to it. Which it was for me OOCly as a player, cause I didn´t notice that the wind was that strong before Damola was blown off without any chance to react anymore, but not ICly as there has been some warning at least even when on short notice. In real life I would have felt the strongness of the wind and sure I would have respected that, but here we just read text, I didn´t grasp the severity of it as a player. What would have helped me to do would have been some escalation of the warnings like "A strong wind arises and the bridges staggers dangeriously" together with enough time to RP my response to it. Sure Damola would have stepped back then.
2) Damola didn´t die on having been blown off. Actually I got the impression on being blown off Damola fell down from quite a distance from the side of the abyss. I had the impression Damola wasn´t that much into thin air already. And that she may would have fallen down but not all of the distance and would have survived it. But as thats just my perception, she may have been off that far already.
So what would have worked for me would be to carefully being able to choose the amount of risk Damola would take. I didn´t feel that I had this option like in other RP events where Damola stayed in the background instead of attacking a strong NPC. I considered to discuss solution 1 with GMs, but I didn´t feel like there would have been a enough time to reach an outcome that would have worked. Solution 2 only came into my mind after I quitted playing PS already.
Again, I am not willing to discuss this. For me as player this experience has been very frustrating and it feels like a punishment for playing out courage with Damola. Yet, while Damola can be courageful, especially when helping others, she also is not that naive to let wind blow her off that easily. So the way I didn´t notice, I didn´t receive the severity of this wind thing as a player while still having a chance to react to it put her in a place where I didn´t know how to play her anymore, even after I tried one idea. So I am doing what recovers her consistency, I take her out of this.
I did take Damola out of RP ICly before, but rarely – in a situation where I thought I wasn´t give a chance to react in a way that would be consistent to her (although back then I might have had such a chance). And there I even still RP´d it in a way, but in a way that didn´t leave the other party a way to react either – it was before I learned that this is important for RP as a player.
If you think me taking Damola out of this event like this is lame or something like that, feel free not to RP with Damola. Its how I play her. I may stay away from events for a while, as taking out Damola out of RP I initially enjoyed like this is quite frustrating for me as a player. But having to play Damola inconsistently with the core of her character for a longer time would be even more so.
That all said: I liked the general idea of the event and I am grateful for GM´s organizing events like that. So do not let my reaction spoil your fun with the event. Just please respect that Damola wasn´t there. (If you don´t respect it I will still play her that way.)
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Noted...
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We have a tradition of letting the victim/recipient of an action determine if it was successful or not, and if so, to what extent. In doing this, we trust that the recipient will show good judgement and make a fair call. This practice provides the recipient with a chance for a saving throw and helps to reduce the effects of godmodding. The same could be done with a dice /roll if that is deemed a more favorable method of determining the outcome - though players should know in advance if you are likely to ask for a /roll or not.
While this practice is not flawless and players do not always make calls that look reasonable, it does help to reduce the need for pulling out.
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If you were registered for the event, I hope you arranged for a GM to remove it from your Event Completed log and had any reward for participation taken back. It sounds like this is part of the point of this thread although not explicitly stated. I suppose there is a good chance there was no GM reward for this event, although it has been some months since I attended one so I do not know how these things go.
If your character is that timid, what on earth were you doing on what I can only imagine is a temporary, likely rickety, bridge? Were there several others that had already crossed safely or were you in the vanguard? Did others get blown off the bridge or were you targeted?
Things happen, and they are not always pleasant. You should now realize that sudden death is always a possibility in an event and should choose carefully before joining in. If Damola is unwilling to pay the price create an alt that is more blase about dying. Nobody forces any particular character to participate.
All that said, it is really none of my business as I am not one of the players that would even notice this happened to you or how you chose to respond to it if you had not put it up for public discussion. Take my words as they are meant, good faith advice with no prejudice intended.
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Hello!
Just as an announcement for anyone who took part in the event but didn´t notice what I wrote to gossip – and also as an more in-depth explaination on why I handle it this way:
ICly Damola did not take part in the event and thus wasn´t blown off by a GM from the bridge and thus also didn´t die.
Just a small clarification for everyone to read: whenever a GM event happens all that happens in that event has to be considered IC, included any consequences.
It is not tolerated in any way for a player to decide what happened or not during a GM event, any consequences of a GM or a Dev event (which include quests) are for the GMs to decide whether this happened or not. This rule will not be subject of discussions.
This means that in case a character negate what happened during an event is lying (willingly or not - e.g. IC memory loss are acceptable), however IC investigations able to detect the lie will reveal it and it may lead to further IC consequences (e.g. in case character lied to a Guard or a city Officer may experience an IC punishment like a short imprisonment, a fine to pay, etc.). No need to say all these consequences are to be considered IC consequences and are in no way a player's punishment.
The player's way to affect the event's outcome is to RP (and I assure you every GM event outcome is scripted to account for the player's actions and interactions, and more than once the player's RP affected how an event ended up for good and for bad).
The GM have the power to rectify any IC event happened during their events and if a player feel like something should be rectified (this include other player's abuse if they happened during an event) they can talk to the GM team and ask for an amend.
We have a tradition of letting the victim/recipient of an action determine if it was successful or not, and if so, to what extent.
Just to be clear enough: this tradition is good and must be used for player to player interactions and RPs, however it apply in no way to any In Character interaction with a GM (or Dev).
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Not that I have seen the logs or attended the event, but I do know this policy alarms me. For one reason, I think that GMs and Devs could always learn something from the RP community, and are not perfect. Yet capable of pushing the boundaries, as we all do from time to time, into godmodding, and players help remind each other constantly where the godmod edge is. If we have role play standards it is likely we would assume they would be consistent in all events, that we have the ability to make some choices in the story line. If we have a different standard for GM events, take heed, you may be shooting yourself in the foot for such a policy, as role players will be leery that they are walking into traps that don' t make any sense to their characters. As Planeshift role players, in a continuous community, we cultivate, grow, shape, transform, mutate and live with our characters every day. It is a shame to allow no room for even a discussion, where not only the player, but the staff and the future players and staff, all have an opportunity to learn and grow as a community. Placing a gag order on players needing aftercare or resolve from a storyline that felt godmodded or abusive is worrisome. We want to trust the GM's and Devs and work together. I urge you to reconsider this policy and allow for bend and sway. Like a bridge, what doesn't bend, brakes. We all want a fortified bridge, so we can all get to the other side of the story feeling good about telling the story together.
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This is a small summarise of the facts :
(23:51:13) Aletche shouts: Take care darling there is a strong wind coming from the cayon
(23:51:47) Noberenoe shouts: Please be careful! Be careful of the wind!
(23:51:58) Oele looks to the direction Arane pointed to and grimaces. "Can't see... Strong winds can be dangerous."
(23:52:46) Noberenoe shouts: Try to get the winds to part away from the bridge!
(23:53:18) Noberenoe watches Damola and and Gova go out on the bridge, worried as it rocks to and fro.
(23:53:33) Damola gets blown into the canyon by a strong breeze
To me Damola, you beeing blowed away doesn't look like something which happened all of a sudden. There were warnings all over.
Once two players were blown off, everyone started to cast AW, BrW and BlW spells to stabilize the whole bridge and it worked.
I understand your concern but you have to realise that you guys were building a bridge over a giant abyss. And that the only way to give the feeling of danger to everyone was to make the wind do what it did. You could fall and die for real. And it happened.
I am sorry that it didn't fitted exactly with what you imagine of your char but we can't go case by case. I hope you will find a way to use this event into your char story line, maybe as something that happened in Damola's life and eventually marked it somehow.
We do are open to feedbacks thought, of course. That's why you have this option to "review the gm event" too. Thank you for posting your thoughts about it :)
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Not that I have seen the logs or attended the event, but I do know this policy alarms me. For one reason, I think that GMs and Devs could always learn something from the RP community, and are not perfect. Yet capable of pushing the boundaries, as we all do from time to time, into godmodding, and players help remind each other constantly where the godmod edge is. If we have role play standards it is likely we would assume they would be consistent in all events, that we have the ability to make some choices in the story line. If we have a different standard for GM events, take heed, you may be shooting yourself in the foot for such a policy, as role players will be leery that they are walking into traps that don' t make any sense to their characters. As Planeshift role players, in a continuous community, we cultivate, grow, shape, transform, mutate and live with our characters every day. It is a shame to allow no room for even a discussion, where not only the player, but the staff and the future players and staff, all have an opportunity to learn and grow as a community. Placing a gag order on players needing aftercare or resolve from a storyline that felt godmodded or abusive is worrisome. We want to trust the GM's and Devs and work together. I urge you to reconsider this policy and allow for bend and sway. Like a bridge, what doesn't bend, brakes. We all want a fortified bridge, so we can all get to the other side of the story feeling good about telling the story together.
First off: godmodding for a GM when he's narrating an event has no meaning; why? because the GMs cannot godmode by definition: if they say something happens it happens, full stop. They take decision based on many factors you may or may not know and they also play the rest of the world except for the players character.
Second: when the GMs are on duty (and this include playing events) they are not on equal terms with players. They are the arbiters and the narrators and this authority has been officially given them by the devs and the project leader.
That said I'm not saying the GMs (or the Devs) are never wrong, they can't have faults or they don't need to learn anything but rather the opposite: we actively encourage the players to communicate with us speaking about problems, bugs new ideas and features.
We believe we can all (players, devs, gms) learn something from each other and if any problem arise we invite you to speak with us through the official channels (e.g. #planeshift-gmtalk).
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Upon reviewing the last 2 posts in this thread here are my thoughts:
I do understand and appreciate what GM's and Devs do. I also believe that they can godmod and that as you said Eonwind, "they play the rest of the world except for the players character." Precisely my point when reviewing Zunnas log (Thank you for posting that Zunna and also for your openness to discuss this here) In this particular situation, the GM could be the bridge or be the wind, but cannot be Damola.
(23:53:33) Damola gets blown into the canyon by a strong breeze
Lets examine this one line, served by the GM in the story. There are two points I would like to make. First, that it is not giving Damola a chance to react to the wind and so it does feel very much like the GM is playing the character and it thwarts any opportunity for Damola to add her part to the story, as to how her character would react, This could have been worded more carefully to be inclusive of giving Damolas character an opportunity to react before being blown away, making for a much richer story line and an exciting end, once she was whisked away into DR, (if that is what happened) then she is no longer with the current activity and feels like she was dissed an opportunity to role play. Had the GM spoke of the instability of the bridge, e.g. the bridges begins to sway and creak uncontrollably, a loud crack is heard just below Damola's feet, a strong gust of wind shifts the bridge to tilt...etc. This builds the anticipation of the story as well as gives Damola a chance to flip out and try and save herself and her character, so that if inevitably she dies she still gets that chance to try.
Also I do realize that GM's have a job to play, as arbiters, mediators...but when you say narrators, I would prefer navigators. We are all narrators in PS and that is what I mean by working together, we all tell the stories together, that is why we play, to narrate stories.
Albeit I agree that Damola should have talked directly with the GM for resolve before posting publicly, but now that the cat is out of the bag or blown off the bridge, we can look to this as opportunity to figure out ways to resolve how we work together to tell stories. By posting that the GM's word is final, is a harsh response that could turn RP'ers away from working with GM's and Dev's and personally I don't want to go backwards into the past but move forward, that is why I chose to speak here. See, in the another thread you spoke about guilds getting help from GM's to plant epic RP bombs to keep things lively, I would be more leery to do so if a)The GM would not work along side me with my guild b) If guildies did not get a chance to respond in an epic event before being sent to the DR because a GM is above me and there word is final. I think of when me and my brothers would be role playing in our room, caught up in some adventure and my mother would come in to check on us and we would all shut up and wait for her to leave, "Mom go away we are playing.", because she was above us and not with us, on our level, digging into the story.
I really don't mean to be argumentative, this is meant in good faith. I look forward to the future of working collectively with the team, I hope to be considered a part of it somehow. I care very much about PS, and all of the community, let my actions speak louder then my words here. Lets keep communicating and lets keep telling stories together. Peace.
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Rule #1, the DM is always right.
Rule #2, players freely choose who they will play with.
With regards to Rule #1, the post that Zunna posted and Eonwind's comment confirms my suspicions about how the gm team views role play. Using gm powers without even offering a saving throw or forcing the event to happen a certain way is to be expected of the current gm team. Fine.
I will humbly invoke Rule #2 and exclude myself from any gm events. I'm sorry, but this sort of behaviour is below my level of role play. You can use Rule #1 to claim that this is not god modding if you like, but players should think about whether or not they find this acceptable and decide for themselves.
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wise words (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAHR7_VZdRw)
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First, very happy to see this post so we can all discuss.
Seems to me that these issues can be dealt with, with a bit of flexibility.
130 seconds for the breeze to turn into a wind strong enough to kill characters is apparently not enough. The suggestion for building anticipation by having the bridge sway dangerously, the wind to begin to roar or whistle ominously, all of this is great. Had this been done, it would have made the event that much better. And then, with that kind of build up, with the bridge creaking and swaying, any fool who puts their foot on the first meter of that bridge can...expect the unexpected.
I think that's all. I love that Zunna posted the logs, much appreciated Zunna. I do think it is too much for GMs to be able to address or interact with every player by rolling dice, metaphorically speaking. It still is possible to set the stage more immersively than was done this time, with a bit more time. 2 minutes may seem a while to some people, but it's really short if you are formulating your response.
I think I understand the player feeling quite bad about this, and it also makes sense to point out that there is inherent danger building a bridge over an abyss, and cautious ones shouldn't be putting feet on the bridge at all, much less with that wild card Gova :)
Last thing - please if the team has time, even a few minutes before the event, please post a one liner in the forums saying that an event is starting and the title of it - I would love to know when these things happen (people tell me there is a calendar or something like this, but I've never seen it and it's not linked to from the IG Roleplay Events forum thread, and it would be nice if it was).
Totally off-topic - can we link back to the Download PS site from the forums, in an obvious place?
Ciao people. Gossip was great tonight, by the way, cheers gossips (so was the pub, never seen so many beers on one table before) :love: :love: :love:
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Game Masters are not always able to force all participants to behave as planned.
I remember a specific event where a couple offered a banquet with very exotic meals which were possibly meant to be disgusting (imagine a "TV jungle camp"...). But everyone (beginning with Lolitra) tried their best to emphasize the great taste, despite the shocking looks of the meals. In this case, I believe, it would have been wrong if GMs tried to make players complain about the banquet as planned...
Well, it was an exceptional experience, and it was entertaining in a completely different way. Most probably hard to compare with the situation in the event this thread is about.
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Upon reviewing the last 2 posts in this thread here are my thoughts:
I do understand and appreciate what GM's and Devs do. I also believe that they can godmod and that as you said Eonwind, "they play the rest of the world except for the players character." Precisely my point when reviewing Zunnas log (Thank you for posting that Zunna and also for your openness to discuss this here) In this particular situation, the GM could be the bridge or be the wind, but cannot be Damola.
(23:53:33) Damola gets blown into the canyon by a strong breeze
Lets examine this one line, served by the GM in the story. There are two points [...] so that if inevitably she dies she still gets that chance to try.
Siteya the GMs were not playing Damola's character, they were enforcing the consequences of Damola's actions upon her by playing the environment, this sentence if reworded as such keep the same meaning but highlights what I'm saying:
A strong breeze blows Damola into the canyon
As you can see the GM was playing the wind, not Damola. As for your second point Damola had the chance, like every other player attending to foresee the risk of crossing the bridge. Were they too few, enough, the time was too short? Answers are all subjective, an it's right they are as we (as humans) have the right to think differently, but that's where the role of arbiters step in, to draw a line it's a necessity.
I think it's very important to highlight a fact that may have been overlooked due to the online nature of PS but they've always been the foundation or Roleplay Games; there always need to be at least 2 "side" for a role play game to exist:
1. one or more player taking up a role (obvious)
2. the world where the player’s character has his role.
Point 2 is a key element and can be taken up by different subjects: the server can take it up in case of quests, NPCs, settings elements etc. but when a human take up this role (e.g. for tabletop roleplay games) they can be called in a different way but are fundamentally GMs, their function is to take up every game element except the players characters themselves, this include NPCs, weather, monsters, the wind... in short whatever the PC face. If you think about the consequences it's clear the two roles cannot be on equal terms as the PC actions can affect the world around but their margin of success and failures has to be determined by someone else (so the GM) otherwise the player would only tell a story to himself (which is great but means being a writer more than a RPer). So no RP can exist if both point 1 and 2 are present, therefore both the GMs and the PCs are on equal term in telling a story together, however they cannot be when it comes to decide about the success of a character action.
Of course as persons we all are (players, GMs, Devs) on equal terms especially when it comes to the respect due to each others. We encourage you all to tell us if you think some GM or Dev IC action was wrong or why it was taken through the official channel and possibly after an event is over, the GMs can make mistakes but they have the responsibilities to take decisions and make calls to keep the thing going on.
Game Masters are not always able to force all participants to behave as planned.
The GM are not there to force the participant to behave as planned but to move on the plot based on the participants' actions. However it's sometimes difficult to account for every participant action and give them the needed relevance due to the number of peoples involved of the fact they come up with something completely unexpected (which is a good thing but sometimes may find the team unprepared or require them to come up with an idea on the spot).
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Siteya the GMs were not playing Damola's character, they were enforcing the consequences of Damola's actions upon her by playing the environment
Oh, BS. That's a fancy way of saying that they took away her chance to react to the situation and just decided for her what would happen to her character.
A strong breeze blows Damola into the canyon
- Poor form. You should blow and let the player know that its hard enough to knock her on her ass and between the ropes. Either let her react and evaluate her response, or give her a chance to /roll for a saving throw. If she does fail at her attempt to meet the challenge, then at least give her a chance to role play her death or scream on the way down or whatever. I assure you, the struggle and screaming and kicking would be a lot more entertaining than seeing some gm silently kill the character.
If the player feels it absolutely necessary that they survive, then cooperate with them and give them an out. What are you going to lose by doing so, a little pride? In the end, the player survives and is happy, you continue with your event - perhaps with the condition that they leave the RP or remain in some state that removes them from action. Best of all, there are no complaints about how it handled the next day.
As you can see the GM was playing the wind, not Damola.
No, here the GM just took over the entire role play and made it happen the way they wanted it to happen. We are not stupid.
As for your second point Damola had the chance, like every other player attending to foresee the risk of crossing the bridge. Were they too few, enough, the time was too short?
The reverse of this would be much better. Let the player take the risk, let the bridge shake and flail in the wind, then give the player a chance to react and try to survive. Your way will condition the player into being risk adverse at such events. They will avoid challenges knowing that some gm will kill them.
One final word on this. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. Adding flashy effects, blingy rewards and doing tricks that players cannot do themselves is like the lipstick in this metaphor. If the underlying story and role play is bad, the lipstick won't help, rather it will make it look worse. Please, focus more on the story and on the quality of role play before resorting to gm tricks. Such tricks are nice on a good role play, but look silly on a bad one.
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If you let people choose whether they live or die, the majority will live at all costs. Would it be better if Dakkru appeared and punished such cowardly behaviour? That is always possible as by deciding to live you are stealing her tithe. Perhaps there should be godly curses/boons of uncertain duration that can be bestowed by the GMs in such events. What is the point of having gods if they do not abuse their powers capriciously?
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There are those that think/treat PS as a table-top rpg and those of us that use the mechanics of this 3d game to enjoy it.
I think the god-modding is done by the tt rpg's who have no real experience in the mechanics of PS.
The GM's have been good about balancing battle/dangerous rp with events that are more just rp such as the gambling in Oja.
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OK everyone, please step back and take a deep breath.
First, please stop with the personal insults. those are never helpful.
Second, please consider that GMs and Devs are first and foremost people. That means differences in beliefs, RP style and many other things. Let's please remove the strong dev/gm vs player overtone because that tries to force us all into the same mould and we do not all agree on everything. And that's ok.
Furthermore In my experience working with the other devs and gms I have found that most all are willing to compromise, learn, and improve.
Let's please temper our responses with consideration for the other people participating in this thread.
It seems to me that the summary of this entire thread could go something like this :
Damola : I felt uncomfortable with the way that RP went. Could we in future use a combat resolution system to avoid misunderstandings? There was a player thread a while back that talked about a system of cooperating in combat RPs when the players have different styles. Maybe something like that?
GM : sure, I'll consider that.
I believe this shows consideration by both parties. Am I missing anything of relevance?
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GMs should have full control of outside forces in an RP. If an outside force causes a player character's death, then that's just how it is. This is a game, after all, not story writing.
But there was this one GM who went about making characters fart while they were having their own little conversations. No plot, just immature pranking. Annoying and not at all funny.
So, GMs can't godmod because they are GMs. They can however powerplay (take control of a player's character). It's up to the GM to be aware when an action would be powerplaying. In Damola's case, it is not. She remained in a dangerous environment, and it was that environment which killed her. No godmodding involved since no other character directly caused her death. Not powerplaying because Damola's character wasn't forced to any action of her own will.
I propose that if Damola survived the blast of wind, she would have to be godmodding by definition, in this case being unaffected by negative consequences (unkillable).
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Re-evaluating... Since I wasn't there, I assumed that the situation had gone like this: creaky bridge, wind picks up, Damola runs onto bridge, wind blasts, Damola falls and dies. It would have been better if instead of immediately killing Damola, she should have been allowed to react to being blown by the wind. She could have grabbed onto the bridge, used magic to somehow save herself, or done a /roll to see if she survived.
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Re-evaluating... Since I wasn't there, I assumed that the situation had gone like this: creaky bridge, wind picks up, Damola runs onto bridge, wind blasts, Damola falls and dies. It would have been better if instead of immediately killing Damola, she should have been allowed to react to being blown by the wind. She could have grabbed onto the bridge, used magic to somehow save herself, or done a /roll to see if she survived.
This is exactly the point. Give the player a chance to play their role and attempt to work through the conflict. Don't just cut them off and decide what will happen ( killing or shoving the player is forced action. ) Anyone who understands role play well will not need this point explained to them.
Something to consider would be to look into putting a group together to research how to run events in a way that meets the gm team's goals while staying in line with expected role play principals. There are resources out there (check youtube) on DMing that could be adapted to work with Planeshift's environment. At minimum, those on the gm team should seriously discuss this internally and come up with a plan. Likewise, such work should be recorded so that the next new gm will have some sort of training material to learn from.
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I want to clarify that my views of the current gm team are influenced in part by some of the things we have seen from some gms of the past. I do realize that its unfair to paint the current team with the same brush and for that, I apologize. The current team should be viewed as the current team, and each member should be seen as an individual with their own individual views and ways of doing things.
My posts have been somewhat reactionary and perhaps overly protective of the role playing community. My tone was also rather sharp and abrasive at some points. I'll try next time to word things so that they are not as offensive.
Some have asked why I did not take this matter up with the gm team directly. I used public discourse via the forums because I did not believe that an isolated discussion with the gm team would be taken seriously. Going forward, should I see something that I feel really needs to be pointed out and that requires more than a casual mention on the forum, I'll take it up with them first and see what happens.
While what I said was perhaps sticking my nose in the gm team's business, that portion of their business overlaps with our experience as players. While I have contributed a quest and a story or two, I am still a player and still affected by such things.
For those who enjoy gm events, please do not let my comments sully your experience. Your own experience is the best indicator of how well the event was run. For those who are gms, please don't view my comments as the voice of prospects or settings or whatever as its just my voice as a player alone.
Lastly, it was not my intention to bash Zunna, but I do realize that what I said had that effect, so for that too, I apologize.
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I want to clarify that my views of the current gm team are influenced in part by some of the things we have seen from some gms of the past. I do realize that its unfair to paint the current team with the same brush and for that, I apologize. The current team should be viewed as the current team, and each member should be seen as an individual with their own individual views and ways of doing things.
Exactly. And a good move from you.
My posts have been somewhat reactionary and perhaps overly protective of the role playing community. My tone was also rather sharp and abrasive at some points. I'll try next time to word things so that they are not as offensive.
And then this... What makes you think anybody needs your protection? And from whom? From this terrible GM team? Who never do anything for players, but plenty against them? Come on, Rigwyn, you can do better than this!
Some have asked why I did not take this matter up with the gm team directly. I used public discourse via the forums because I did not believe that an isolated discussion with the gm team would be taken seriously. Going forward, should I see something that I feel really needs to be pointed out and that requires more than a casual mention on the forum, I'll take it up with them first and see what happens.
Why not speak about it during a Dev meeting, with players and GMs present? And then, if necessary, follow up in the forums?
When it comes to being "taken seriously", I am yet to meet Game Admins that listen more closely to their players. In my past life as a MUD player, I had some truly unpleasant experiences with the equivalent of Game Masters. This makes me appreciate our team even more.
Our GMs make mistakes, sure, because they are human (and maybe Damola's death was such a mistake). But they listen, and act accordingly.
Lastly, it was not my intention to bash Zunna, but I do realize that what I said had that effect, so for that too, I apologize.
A good move, again, and a good end of your post. Hopefully everybody will cool down now, things get so easily heated up during a discussion. In the end, we all have the same goal: To make PlaneShift as enjoyable as possible.
Gonger.
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The GM team intends to organize events that are fun for all the players that attend the event. In the Klyros Down event there were some actions taken by the GM's that we thought were a good addition to the event and meant to emphasize the situation the players were in at that moment.
Unfortunately these actions were not perceived as fun. Damola was one of the players affected by these actions and the criticism she has on these actions, like any other feedback given to us, will be taken into account and we will learn from.
The GM Team
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This discussion got suddenly smothered.
There were no personal insults. It got heated.
It's an important discussion to have, how we in PS roleplay events, as players and GMs.
The fact that Rigwyn is apologizing and shutting up is very weird to me. This makes me not want to join events, it's a bad environment when people like Rigwyn and Siteya cannot give their very experienced views on the events and how they are run and feel comfortable doing so. These forums are so civilized for internet stuff, I don't think any of us should be so completely defensive that we cannot take the heat.
Seriously, this place is very very very civilized.
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I think the biggest issue we have here is whether GMs should try to balance player participation or should the fastest typists be allowed to dominate. Very often it has seemed to me that the usual suspects drive the action whichever way they want. Slow typists, which often includes people using a non-native tongue, are often relegated to the status of also-ran. The GMs have their scripts to follow and have to try to react to whatever the players try to throw at them. Other people just tag along to be in the entourage and gain whatever scraps are thrown their way.
Personally I stopped trying to participate some time ago because the elites could not find any way to share the glory. It belongs to them and everyone else has to be shouted down.
Perhaps I am too harsh, but I wouldn't be a GM here if you paid me (of course, nobody asked me to). It seems far more frustrating than rewarding. That they keep on trying to entertain us is eminently commendable.
This has been the view from a rock half-buried in the muck.
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I think the biggest issue we have here is whether GMs should try to balance player participation or should the fastest typists be allowed to dominate. Very often it has seemed to me that the usual suspects drive the action whichever way they want. Slow typists, which often includes people using a non-native tongue, are often relegated to the status of also-ran. The GMs have their scripts to follow and have to try to react to whatever the players try to throw at them. Other people just tag along to be in the entourage and gain whatever scraps are thrown their way.
Personally I stopped trying to participate some time ago because the elites could not find any way to share the glory. It belongs to them and everyone else has to be shouted down.
Some of the earlier events were definitely like this, and being a very fast typist (even as a non-native speaker), I take some of this blame on me. But after some complaints and discussions, players seem to be more disciplined, and also more experienced. For my part, I use the time I gain through my fast typing to run the Event Group, and to think twice - or thrice! - about what I am going to type. Quality is more important then quantity, and slow typists have the same right to RP the events as anybody else.
Perhaps I am too harsh, but I wouldn't be a GM here if you paid me (of course, nobody asked me to). It seems far more frustrating than rewarding. That they keep on trying to entertain us is eminently commendable.
This has been the view from a rock half-buried in the muck.
Agreed (about the commendation, not about the muck ;D).
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Just make Rigwyn the GM who supervises roleplay.
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I didn´t look in the forum for the last days as I was serious about not wanting to discuss it.
Zunna made me aware today, as I talked to her about this situation with via whisper in an attempt to clear up things, that the GM team decided that Damola was there ICly.
That will have no effect on the way I play Damola. She wasn´t there. Thats her reality and I am naturally authoritative of it as I am the one playing her. She just wasn´t there, so she doesn´t have any memories cause she wasn´t there, not cause she forgot cause of some trauma.
As thats against the way GMs decided to handle this, I think it is best when Damola will not take part in future GM events for now. That way its possible to avoid unnecessary conflicts about this.
It just doesn´t work for me to play Damola in a way I as a player have not agreed to. For me RP is about being able to influence the story instead of playing Damola as a victim of it.
Eonwind I do not concur with your point of view. And I won´t accept any IC punishments for Damola just cause I decided that she has not been there. I did this to protect myself as a player and in order to continue to have fun playing PS. Having to play Damola in such a situation *against my will* for me personally would take all fun out of playing PS.
I just openly display my own limits and vulnerabilities. I do not mean any offence to anyone. This is just how I personally receive this and what I personally make out of this.
Damola has this in OOC description:
Player enjoys lighthearted, joyful and recreational roleplay and is selective in what roleplay to engage with. If Damola´s lighthearted and sometimes probably even untouchable behaviour does not fit your way to play roles, feel free to play with someone else. For me it is still a *game*.
If Damola´s actions hurt you OOCly, feel free to send me a tell. I am willing to consider an OOC or IC solution to it. I like this game to be joyful for everyone.
I now that GMs can´t read all OOC descriptions, but as I didn´t see this coming as a player, I also had no reason to talk to GMs beforehand.
I do have some IC mechanism for Damola to behave this way consistently ICly – she can tell a very touching story about this. But I didn´t found a way to apply this mechanism in the event at that time, so I decided to take her out of it. Upto now I have not seen any other suggestion that would work for me. And its past as well already.
I am sorry that I didn´t receive the warnings as that serious quickly enough as the GMs intended them to be seen. Again, I do not mean any offence to anyone. I am just trying to find a way how I can continue to have fun with PS.
This is my truth.
I think I will again avoid the forum for some time, as I want to avoid wasting energy into unhelpful ping pong of arguments.
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One more clarification:
Damola died before. Not often, but she did. ICly. She even fell into death. But this was in a situation and story that didn´t completely destroy her consistency as a char for me and that didn´t make her unplayable for me. I was able to play her in a way that recovered her ICly without destroying her core traits as a character as being lighthearted, playful and serene, while still being cautious and protective of herself where this makes sense and where she actually knows her way as a char, she has been roofclimbing often in her childhood and didn´t fall into death there either.
Heck, I tried playing her with it, but it didn´t work out for me. At least one player accepted that I took Damola out of it at that time.
Actually realistically spoken, what would happen in a char is blown into a death during the event like this or killed by an NPC: How realistic would it be for the char to ever appear again in the event? I know lots of players just run through DR as quickly as possible and then continue with the event without playing *any* of the consequences of dieing. "Oh I just died, it doesn´t matter, lets go on." I know in game mechanics PS does not have a perma death, but does that take all the consequences of dieing away when RPing? I know chars die OOCly all day, and ICly as well and don´t take it for anything serious. But honestly *how* realistic is that, how realistic would it be for a char to fall into death and continue with an event actually as if nothing happened? How would that be different from my taking Damola out of the event? Realistic for me would be that if the char died, the char would be traumatized, would have to deal with the trauma and there would not be much of a chance for the char to ever appear during the runtime of the event again. More for some chars, like Damola, less for others, but really, even for the toughest guys, do you think its realistic to go through DR, then say "lalala, I just have blown into death and died or torn into pieces and died, but I don´t give it a damn" and continue as if *nothing* happened? How is that any different from taking a char out of an IC experience, different from deciding that char did not experience it, did not live *through* it? To fight against a giant dwarf for example, be killed and appear with the event just 10 minutes later again as if nothing happened? How much sense would that make ICly?
I tell you my personal answer to this: *none*.
So I do think that any "You are dead" decision of a GM basically takes a char out of the event completely for its entire runtime of it if played realistically and thus destroy the fun of the player taking part in the event who wants to see how the event goes on and experience it with the other players together. Its basically a "You are out, go away." if realistically played. Sure, I had Damola run through DR as well, I know my way, thanks, and appear in the event again, but basically that alone didn´t make any sense whatsoever if Damola would have experienced the consequences of a death realistically. If I played her realistically with what happened, Damola would not have appeared in the event again *at all*. How is ignoring the consequences of a "you are dead" decision of a GM during an event and appearing ten minutes later in the event again as if nothing happened any different from what I am asking for here?
If its the story, if its how I received the story versus the consistency and playability of my main char as I see it, Damola didn´t experience the story. In my oppinion thats no different than how many players play or more accurately do not play the death of their chars during events so far. So I even do not think I am doing anything special here. Actually I think its even more honest and respectful of the GM decision to let a char die. Instead of just ignoring it altogether I make it obvious that it didn´t work for me and am willing to take Damola out of the event completely.
That said, I do think that the story doesn´t need it that it has been exactly Damola falling into death for it to exist and make sense as a story. It could have been some other citizen of Yliakum who has not been played by a char and the story would still be consistent and make sense. Heck, this could even give a consistent continuation event that way, for example about rescuing that non player backed char from DR or helping that char to recover from the experience. On the other hand up to now I didn´t receive any suggestion on how to play Damola consistently with what happened and even not a single response about the two suggestions I had.
And also: I do think its unlikely that my decision about Damola will cause any serious inconsistency issues with future story lines. Unless you plan to create a future event around the fact that Damola was blown into death in this one, I think its quite easy to avoid any conflicts around the different ways I and GM team decided to handle this. If I am not forced to play Damola ICly with having experienced this death thats inconsistent for her, it does not matter for me at all whether GM team decided she has been there while I decided she has not been there. I can live with the difference in viewpoints. I just will play Damola in a way that she hasn´t been at the event at all. So far I didn´t read anything that convinced me to handle this differently.
So my current decision for this is: To stick with my decision, let it go and rest for now and deal with any issues of my decision only if any issues ever arise out of it, which again, I do think, is unlikely.
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Why we are arguing from so irrelevant think?i mean is this really so important?afterall it was just one more dead,so it should not spoil ICness of char.afterall,pretty much everyone makes unusual thinks.
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On Bilbous' note:
The gms should balance the typists either way, whether they're fast or not. It's common courtesy to allow everyone a turn.
And if the GMs just scoot by letting the fast typers blaze away, then it's favoritism, not running an event. In player ran RPs, it ought to be much the same: Let EVERYONE have a cycle, or turn, and then you can type your reaction fittingly.
(Plus I need to get to 10 posts so I can PM! xD)
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I think in a conflict its good when each side comes up with a solution suggestion taking the need of the other parties into account. Thus I share what the challenge solving capabilities of my brain have some up with:
Zunna posted this (incomplete!) log excerpt:
This is a small summarise of the facts :
(23:51:13) Aletche shouts: Take care darling there is a strong wind coming from the cayon
(23:51:47) Noberenoe shouts: Please be careful! Be careful of the wind!
(23:51:58) Oele looks to the direction Arane pointed to and grimaces. "Can't see... Strong winds can be dangerous."
(23:52:46) Noberenoe shouts: Try to get the winds to part away from the bridge!
(23:53:18) Noberenoe watches Damola and and Gova go out on the bridge, worried as it rocks to and fro.
(23:53:33) Damola gets blown into the canyon by a strong breeze
First let me add these to demonstrate that Damola was in the process of evaluating her actions:
(23:51:19) Damola ponders "We need some magic to fix this in place, I bet."
(23:51:53) Damola ponds "But I think it can work."
(23:51:58) Damola says: *ponders
I have the following suggestion to demonstrate what work for me while I think still be able to serve the need of the GM team to demonstrate the dangerousness of the situation:
(23:51:13) Aletche shouts: Take care darling there is a strong wind coming from the cayon
(23:51:19) Damola ponders "We need some magic to fix this in place, I bet."
(23:51:47) Noberenoe shouts: Please be careful! Be careful of the wind!
(23:51:53) Damola ponds "But I think it can work."
(23:51:58) Damola says: *ponders
(23:51:58) Oele looks to the direction Arane pointed to and grimaces. "Can't see... Strong winds can be dangerous."
(23:52:46) Noberenoe shouts: Try to get the winds to part away from the bridge!
(23:53:18) Noberenoe watches Damola and and Gova go out on the bridge, worried as it rocks to and fro. [Damola probably cannot see that Noberenoe looks worried and maybe also not hear the shouts due to the winds.]
Damola looks uneasy and frightened, trying to balance in the upcoming strong wind, and steps back towards Gova cautiously as various chars start to cast AW, BrW and BlW spells to stabilize the bridge [hey allow them to react to the situation as well, please! that they reacted after a GM teleported Damola and a certain cute cub into death just demenstrates that they also didn´t have the time to react to the warnings]
(23:53:33) Damola gets blown to the edge of the threestern trunk she is standing on
[Actually if that is not playing Damola by a GM, I don´t know what is. Damola is the subject here, so let me rephrase this:]
(23:53:33) A strong wind blows Damola to the edge of the threestern trunk she is standing on
[Here it is actually the wind doing things *with* Damola]
Damola barely catches the wood with her hands as her feet loose their ground, looking frightened, but determined, then musters all of her strength to put her arms around the trunk and move herself a bit closer to Gova.
The wind blows even stronger and blows Damola off the threestern trunk.
Damola yells frightened and falls down out of view [no one except player has seen Damola dieing, right?]
[Insert chars shouting after Damola frightendly and shockedly]
[Out of view] Damola falls against the firm rock at the side of the abyss with her front side and manages to get a hold of a protrusion of the rock
[Out of view] With her last strength and endurance Damola manages to climb up the rock as the winds still blow strongly [I think with strength and endurance both 250 this can work]
Damola´s hand appears at the edge of the rock
From here my suggestion would be that Gova or someone else sees the hand and helps her to get up. Totally exhausted Damola would see that the others continue to build upon the bridge she started while stabilizing it with their spells, happily letting them do the work as she cannot help anymore due to being exhausted and shocked from her experience.
That said, I´d propose a similar solution for that certain little cub. Cause, how realistic is this: A certain little cub explores the edge of the abyss, yet *nobody* catches her, carrying her to a safe place and she gets blown into death by the wind? Come on, there have been enough chars around to grab the cub and bring her to a safe place. Its as unrealistic as it can get. It utterly and totally does not make *any* sense at all. For me it is another demonstration that players only started to realize the dangerousness of the situation. But as her player didn´t speak up yet as far as I know I leave it up to the player of the cub to do so and offer a plot that would work for the player.
For me this would be a solution I could play Damola with and put her back ICly into the event again. Damola gets her lesson for being too eager to help with only partly and a bit late realizing the dangerousness of the situation. But also she wouldn´t end up in a state where I think she becomes unplayable for me.
The above scenario also takes into account giving other players enough time to react, for example the spell casters. As with Eonwind´s
Just a small [small?] clarification for everyone to read: whenever a GM event happens all that happens in that event has to be considered IC, included any consequences.
It is not tolerated in any way for a player to decide what happened or not during a GM event, any consequences of a GM or a Dev event (which include quests) are for the GMs to decide whether this happened or not. This rule will not be subject of discussions.
I do not see much chance for having such an alternate variant accepted. So I still stick with my decision that Damola haven´t been there, unless someone from the GM team notifies me that something along what I outlined above could work for the GM team.
Also with that I do not see much chance into ever again taking part on a GM organized event with any of my chars anymore.
Eonwind, when you are serious about what you wrote about, you would need to find a way to force me playing Damola in a way I didn´t agree to, or put her into prison (for no obvious reason), or disable my account or something like that, as I will play Damola as I outlined. Anyway you would choose would create even more inconsistencies like Damola disappearing as a char without any reason.
I now made an alternative offer that could work for me. But for me Damola didn´t die during the event like this. Thats a part I am not willing to discuss.
So in the end you either enforce what you wrote above, and likely loose a player, or you look at what could work for everyone. And thats not a threat, thats a logical consequence, cause: Without fun there is no point for me playing PS.
So consider for yourself whether you let me play Damola in a way that works for me or not.
I close with thinking it might have been good to do it like other players who die during an event: Just run through DR back to the end and ignore it altogether otherwise. Even if that does not make any sense ICly either.
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Damola does make a good point about returning to an event after running through the DR. Departing the DR has traditionally been set as an onerous task that takes far more time than it actually does. Perhaps a delay could be developed such that characters registered for the current event could not pass back into Yliakum until 'today's' event has concluded. You certainly wouldn't want it to last beyond that in the case of ongoing events, but this would not be such a bad thing.
It might require a new DB flag -- perished in current GM event -- and a check in the exit portal code for that flag state that sends the character back to the DR entrance hall instead of Yliakum. Of course you would need code that cleared the tag at the end of the days proceedings.
This would allow for two-pronged events where, say, death cult members in Yliakum could send characters to the DR and their partners in the DR could work on them, try to recruit them or feed them false information or whatever, while they are a captive audience.
Damola: there is a problem with your latest suggestion and that is that it would take a platoon of GMs to give each player that kind of personal attention. If you find it is hard to respond to the actions of 2-4 GMs think how much harder it is for them to respond to up to a dozen or more players. You cannot expect the same level of detail or complexity from GM led event that you can from your usual role play.
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I close with thinking it might have been good to do it like other players who die during an event: Just run through DR back to the end and ignore it altogether otherwise. Even if that does not make any sense ICly either.
Which is exactly what you did... after being killed you came back at the bridge... So where is your point exactly ?
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Okay, I stop investing anymore more real life energy into this.
I appreciate that it is not up to me to decide what everyone who was in the event remembers in order to keep Damola playable for me. Asking for that would be similar to the "You are dead" command Damola received from a GM. It would add a violation of freedom in how to play a char onto an existing one and is not helpful. Everyone naturally remembers what he or she remembers. If that is that Damola has fallen into death that way, it is his or her memory.
I will just claim the same freedom for Damola back. No GM at all will have any power over what Damola remembers or how her future behavior regarding it is supposed. No GM at all will have any power as to whether she gives any explaination or not or whether this explaination does make sense or not.
So just don´t expect any consistent response, if one at all, out of her regarding that event, I will continue to play Damola lighthearted, joyful and serene without spending any further moment on any consistent story on why this is the case. I won´t play her traumatized in any way, without any further explaination as to why this is the case. She may just close her eyes, concentrate on something deep inside of her, will be immediately in a serene mood and probably not say a word at all when being asked about the event. Heck, this even can have an IC explaination, but I don´t care at the moment. Whether she remembers anything from it or not, and why, I don´t care at the moment. I just won´t sacrifice any of her special traits for the story. I just won´t give anything at all the power to take away my fun with playing PS. And I stop giving this any more of my energy (to think of a consistent or plausible story).
If thats not what you expect, you are free not to approach her about the event. I totally don´t care about any reactions to her future behavior regarding the event.
Unless I gained trust again in the expansiveness necessary to play Damola or her sister in a way that is consistent to her during a GM event, I won´t take part in any future GM events.
So this is settled for me now. I won´t argue with anyone´s memories any longer or with any GM decision regarding what has been IC or not while still protecting Damola´s consistency and playability as a char. I thought that taking Damola out of the event ICly or altering the past would be the only way to keep her playable and consistent for me, to continue enjoying playing PS, but I now found that if I do not care at all about any explaination whatsover regarding her future behavior regarding the event I am free to play her the way I want as well.
Whatever happened, whether she really died or not, nothing of this has the power to touch what for me is Damola. Accept it or not. I don´t care.