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Messages - drJack

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16
General Discussion / Guild quest (contest?)
« on: January 28, 2011, 09:23:47 am »
A) The plan
Essential and direct.
I think that in a MMORPG the storylines are related not only to NPC but also to PC.
Just to be simple: YOU, players, are part (and maybe protagonist) of Planeshift stories.

So, I’d like to know you a little more. And I’m here to ask some info about your groups.
To be speficic: I want to know about your guilds.

B) The form
I’d like to analyze some features of your guilds. To do so I will use fictional concepts applied to videogames. Here the info I need.
(The * are the mandatory info if you want to gain the prize, see n. 3)

---------------------------------------- This is a line! The begin.
Guild site: [Link, if you have any]
* Guild Mission: [What’s the main goal of the guild, why you created it? Max 2 sentences]
* Guild Style: [Simple, the main activity and manners of your guild. Roguish? Warrior-like, mages, professional gossippers, jack of all trades, crafters, talkers, mercenaries, explorers, mappers? It’s full of possibility. Please add a short description. Max 3 sentences. Be care, that’s the more important info.]
Guild Values (max 3): [Do you have any shared values? If so may I ask you the name of the value ex. Justice and a short (one sentence) explaination ex. bring the guilty to prison (that is different from Justice: help innocent to avoid crimes)]
* Date of creation: [if you don’t remember exactly I’d like to know more or less when.]
Guild main story event (minimum 3 - max 5): [the event has to be described in one, max two sentences, if you remember you may also add the event date]
* Guild location: [This is mandatory only if you have a guild home. I'd like coordinates. A screenshot (little please) can be appreciated too.]
Members: 1) [How they can join - are they selected in any way?] 2) [Hierarchy and roles in the guild with a short description ex. Lieutenant: the one who make cakes at the guild parties!] 3) [Important members (old and young) and why, max 3] 4) [How many members? If you don’t know exactly I’d like to know more or less how many.]
* What you like the most of your guild: [Max 2 sentences]
Guild motto!: [That’s very optional, but if you want to add a motto, please do it. It’s fun.]
---------------------------------------- This is another line! (uh yeah). The end.

How to fill the form: copy the form between the lines, delete the [tag description] and add yours.
Now, since I’m asking you something I’d like to give you something back.

C) The (little) prize
I’m calling it “prize” but it’s too a big word.
I’m going to create one (and only one) quest, related to one (and only one) guild.
I will personally  decide the winner guild based on
1 (most important point) - congruent motivation (so a guild created with a clear goal will be more than a standard guild)
2 - activities (the most active guild, and the one that has the most structured activity)
3 - Important events (the guild that lived more events GM created, and also player created)
4 - Members (the more the better, I will check also the originality of the important characters)
5 (less important point) - Longevity (enduring matters)

The quest will be “related” to the winner guild. It won’t be an official guild quest. This means:
- The quest style will be the same of the guild style. Ex. If will win a Guild of professional gossippers the quest will be about spreading gossips.
- I can add some story element of the guild in the quest. Ex. I can mention something of the guild, such as an important member or event. (but only if we agree, so if you think that’s a bad point just tell me)
- The starting NPC will be near the guild location.

This quest will be open to all:
- Everyone can make it at any time.
- The quest has a story indipendent from the guild, so the quest will remain forever! Also after the eventual closure of the guild.
-> I’m choosing so since the guild can close, but its story will remain, and be a part (little, or maybe big) of Planeshift history.

How? You will see ;).

D) Timeline
This so called “challenge” will finish the 15th of February h: 23:59, current year.
The quest will be written after two or three weeks. (Then maybe it has to be tested, so it can be a little more.)

I think that this “challenge” can be easy and enjoyable, but it’s not really serious: it’s almost unofficial. If you think that it will create major conflict between you players just tell me. I can delete it.

So, here we’re. If anyone is interested I’d like to listen. (Fill the form, but share also your opinion if you’ve something in mind you think I should add.)

17
General Discussion / Re: Magic Ways
« on: August 13, 2010, 10:45:41 am »
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Well, once you get to blue way, try to make the reward a water glyph or not many people will care
I'll remember that.

I saw many question, but to some of them I (think I) can't answer here.

I can say only that I'm working on the Crystal Way now.

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Just to let you know there is an informally allied group of Crystal Mages (above level 4) called the Cyystal Custos who are actively working with each other to further the skills available in Crystal Way.
If you have any suggestion about what you think it is good to implement in the Crystal Way Quests I'll be glad to listen.
Histories of Crystal Orders of players (past and present), rules of your guilds and everything like that. Also something that happened in some event you (and your collegues too) remember and like.

18
General Discussion / Re: Magic Ways
« on: July 31, 2010, 08:04:44 am »
Thank you for all opinions. Sorry but I can't talk about any rules issues like glyph, spells and mechanics. But I assure you I am listening to what you say, and if I can do something I'll do it.
One other thing, I think that something could change when all the Way quest will be implemented. So I'm sure we'll need these feedback after the implementation of the Way quests.

Work in progress:
From the next week I'll work on Crystal Way.


19
General Discussion / Re: Magic Ways
« on: July 24, 2010, 04:36:53 am »
@ Geoni:
Yes, I work in settings. I tried to say the less possible, to do not make any spoils.
But it really could be useful to know how many players are in every way.
Yes... twice red is a fault :p.

@ Ligh:
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You missed the (already) most wanted
Changed :p.

Thanks for all the answer and for the votes.

20
General Discussion / Magic Ways
« on: July 22, 2010, 12:24:43 pm »
Hey, it's me again. Asking for player opinions :).

We're creating some sets of quests for the magic Ways, and cause of organization, we planned to complete them one at a time.
The structure of every Way quest is already defined (and the Azure Way quests are almost completed.)
Now we're editing all the rest, so we can test them very soon.

I'm here to ask your preference, to know what is the Way with more players in, so to implement the one with more players to try the quests.

So... what is your favoutire color?
As I said Azure is almost finished, so the choice remains to the other ways:
Red, Blue, Brown, Crystal or Dark.

21
General Discussion / Re: Planeshift War
« on: June 10, 2010, 06:16:40 am »
Disclaimer: if you're bored of theory of war skip the first lines. At the end of this reply I added a pratical example of what you can do.

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... That is a way the war could begin.
The begin is complex, but easier than the middle :).
How you handle the center of this  "event" is more difficult.

What we want as a challenge? Let's try to be specific. (and if we want we can simulate all like suggested from UTM)
- Killing between players. Ok.
- Limit: use only of a limited number of potion?
- Limit: only in some place?
- What about commerce? War depends also on production.
- What about informations? Are there allowed spy and double gamers? What they can do? Maybe we can create some "secret base" if the spy found them and the attackers conquer it the defenders will lose something.
- What about time? Will we apply a defined time limit?
- Magical Research? Can we apply it in some manner?
- And resources? Mineral, and what else? The team who take more will have more possibility to win usually.

And the end is a little of medium complexity.
How do you know if someone win?
It will be only one or more matches, who remains alive win? Or maybe we need a surrender declaration? Or we need a external judge? Or is there a flag? Or you have to arrive in a place to win?

But reading through your minds! the lines I think to see that you want some movement. But I see many other request from you. Some ask for RP, some ask for new players and some other ask for stories. There are many ways to create movement, and some of them are simpler than wars (who need also almost a little intervention of NPC), there are tournaments, celebrations, inside stories of the guild.

But I know... all of this is theoretical. And someone could be bored by it. So...

A PRATICAL EXAMPLE, of something applicaple now

To create a war training simulation is really easy. (and you do not need any NPC stories... I assume NPC intervention is a big issue, tell me if I'm wrong)
Phase 1: recruitment.
----START----
Phase 2: daily (or weekly, as you prefer) objective (ex. creating x material, enter in enemy base, etc).
Phase 3: confront.
----END----
Phase 4: points. (and ranking?)
Phase 5 * optional: some sub objective more casual, like spy stories.

And could be all driven by the players.

22
General Discussion / Re: Planeshift War
« on: June 08, 2010, 01:55:11 pm »
Some opinions for the ones who want to create a war.
I've to say that I love wars (only in game and fiction obviously) because they are complex and they sustain conflict (the base of every good story).
BUT, as I said, it is really complex. And if you do not take care of every details a war could really get out of hand.

Here some ideas.
First, I agree with Illysia: Good vs Bad is an old fantasy cliché, there are many people that are tired of it.

Yeah, I'm the bad guy, I want to kill you all.
Uhm, why bad guy?
Because I'm EVIL!
Ohh.

I prefer to be a little more creative.
A real war is pretty tied to the setting and to the elements of the society, if you do not look to them the war could be, not natural. Some history examples.

Flower's war (middle america - Aztechs).
It started because of famine, then it became a ritual war of the Aztech.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_war
I do not like very much this type of war because it was full of rules, and the soldiers respected these rules...Example, they always fight during daytime.
Damn... I think that wars are a place where people fight with all resources, like surprise attack and all the rest.

Medieval wars (europe).
A little more interesting. But short ranged. Too power in few hands. Many times it was personal interest of some noble.

Reinassance (europe).
The best for me (for a fantasy setting), many more interest are on board. Guild interest in creating monopoly of some resources, bankers who want rulers to spend their gold, city who want freedom from the rulers, rich families who fight each other, poor people who start rebellions. And much more. Anyone have to take in mind all of these interest. And these wars usually developped on multiple levels. Economic, sieges, open air battles, court intrigues, assassination, also the public opinion started to matters.

Someone used the example of the WWII, well, I think is a little too far away for a fantasy setting. Nationalism, mass media and industrial revolution took a too big part in the world wars. I think that they're not expendable examples for a fantasy war.

Elements that create wars (Be careful, there's a difference between real causes and formal pretext):
Food and famine.
Resources.
Successions.
Trade routes.
Expansion.
Indipendence.
Religion and way of thinking (but is more a pretext or an instrument than real causes).

And remember to answer the question: why a key characters of the plotline want the element? (Ex. why the king want to expand? Or why the banker want so much gold? To show himself? To save a lady in distress? To give a legacy to all of his fifteen sons? For Vengeance?)
To be really accurate, also every player could need to create a motivation for his character if he want to partecipate. But well, that is not always necessary. The important thing is that the key characters (players and/or NPC) have a believable motivation.

Often the wars born from some kind of improvise scarcity.

23
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There should be many lower-level quests that offer dark side/light side choices but with small faction changes. This would give developing characters the chance to go good or go bad, but maybe wouldn't be so great as to make those choices irrevocable

Moral choice... if we change it a bit we maybe can create some moral challenge. A moral choice is easy enough, but I think that moral challenge needs a special type of prize. It is not always applicable, but I'll try to think about it.

Bragan:
I see that you like when a NPC interact realistically to your words, a nice point I think. You also say that a good story could make you forgot a bad challenge :p. We'll try to make them both good.

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I think that for quests that require player-crafted items (like the sabre quest), quest rewards might be given based on the quality of the item.
Here you say again you want some honest answer from the NPC, you're not the first you asked for it. I'll take in mind this.
You also pointed out a new challenge.
Item creation challenge: where a player need to create an object for the NPC.

Nivm:
Thanks for the links, and for all your opinions. I really appreciate your enthusiasm in giving your feedback.

24
Thanks for the links, Rigwyn.

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I guess the challenge would be the conflict and what needs to be done to resolve it, but not the story itself ?

They're two different things. Some player prefer one, some other prefer the other. I would like to improve both.

Story have elements like characters, motivation, congruency, chronology etc.
Challenge have other elements like difficulty, GUI, Way to solve etc.

Conflict is one of the elements that ties the two.

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Then it's always jarring when the NPC congratulates you for speedy delivery when you took eight times as long as their normal service does.
One of the new thing you said is that the NPC will recognize honestly the player effort. And giving compliments to everyone could be like giving to no one.
I'll try to do something about this.
And, Nivm, I understand your points. There's no problem, I (think to :p) understand what you're saying. And I will try to improve the elements you defined.

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I find it kinda funny how DrJack says the developers divide things. I don't see any reason to segment the work, especially in planning where one person can finish it quickly.
Well, this is really above this topic :).
Ok to talk here and there about some engine issues or other part of the challenge system, but the question under your statement is about mangement of people :p.
I know that if we want we can dig in this topic and go deep (challenge is tied with everything if we want to analyze it), but I prefer to focalize on the types of challenge already implemeted (or easily implementable :p).

Thanks also for the new answers, Candy and Kinghtspark9.
Sorry for my late reply, but this week I had some connection problems.

Please, remember that this is only a topic of a prospect member (me) who want to familiarize with the quest challenges and to hear it from the players.

25
There are two type of multiplayer quest:
The multi player - (optional): ex. you need to kill a monster or to gather items. It is easier to do it in group.
The multi player - (necessary): ex the multi-lever quest. -> You need to pull a number of levers distant from each other and you need to do it at the same time.

But, as Rigwyn says, these are game design issues, not only a quest line issue.
You also mentioned the possibility to make NPC interact with the setting (dynamic NPC). An engine issue. (I divide them, so if anyone want to work on this or study them will be facilitated.)

Nivm you pointed out a possible flaw. Make players feel "not in control" is bad (it is different from "surprises" that are good elements). I agree. I'll try to think something out through the quest lines.
The NPC who trust too much the player is a story (congruency) issue. No problem for them. Easy to correct.
Then you mix the "time quest" with the "No way back." and "A step done is done." They are different issues but I think to understand what you said.

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Reading all the above input, and seeing how people may have some specific dislikes, remind me of something I encountered many times through the game. Dialogs roughly go like this: - Would you help me with something? - Yes! (---You've got a quest---) - Ok, here is my problem...
I agree. First a player need to know what to do, then he/she/kra could decide. Otherwise the player had no real choice.

For the ones who are following this post I think you could like some more explainations.
Quest are composed by many elements tied together:
- Challenge.
- Story.
- Reward.
This post was designed to focalize on challenges (story and reward only when they are tied with challenge). Obviously the suggestion about stories and reward are welcome, but I'll try to remain on subject.

Oh... and I identified another type of challenge.
- Item interacting challenge: where the player have to use some item in the setting to obtain something. Ex. the cooking quests in ojaveda.

26
Wow, how many informations. I appreciate very much your attitudes, everyone.

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During the quest, the story around Lucky develops, you hear some things about him, and the plot is fun. Another example are some quests with Zak, where you get to know a bit more about his background.
Ok. You mean complex plotlines.

I'll try to condense all the other answers.
- Too repetitive challenges are boring. Travel challenge is nice only the first times, but a quest full of travilling could bother some players. Especially for long travels.
The same is for hunting. Continue to kill rats is boring. But going in interesting places (ex. Stone labytinth) or killing special monster (ex. to get Glyph rewards) could be ok.
- Riddles. Seems many like them, especially if they are tied with other quests or setting elements. Another suggestion was: to give clues through conversation or other inside quest elements. Flaw: 1) they could have more than one answer, and this could create frustration if not implemented. 2) there is the possibility of spoilers.
- Setting quest. Flaw: they could be too easy.

Fetch quest: are a mix of Travel (principal and necessary) and Hunt or Gather (optional)

I'll take not of some engine issues:
1)
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Hunt challenges and Research challenges are the same, basically because you don't have to hunt or make the object yourself. For example, I gave a NPC the ulber heart he wanted, said heart I bought from some random fighter. Nothing wrong with that, but the challenges would improve if some quest demanded that the deed be actually performed.

2)
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In the Gothic series, for example, some NPCs follow you, some actually guide you; and they are not helpless if danger occurs.
The good thing in escort quests are that you can know better the NPC and that he can relate to the invonroment. For now, we can only use it like any other fetch-pet (travel) quest. Thanks Khoridor, you made good reports.

About time limit quest:
I've read no quest with this challenge until now.

I also take note that the most reported request is: deploy choices with consequences internal in quests like these ones.
- decide which NPC you give the object (or the information) of the quest.
- decide how to finish a quest (ex. combat or conversation)
Any other suggestion?

Quote
If you don't know where it is, the exploration amounts to randomly wandering around until you find what you're looking for. These sorts aren't really "quests"; they are "menial jobs"...it would be nice if they were called that.
About this. Well, this is also a way to make players socialize, they have to ask around. What do you think about this? (Nivm, but also any other who'd like to express their opinion)

Did I understand something wrong?
Any other opinion or clarification until now?

27
Thanks for asking drJAck!
Thanks to you for the answers, this topic is full of thankigs  :innocent:.
I was busy with reply to the others when you posted, but here I'm.

Deepness of the story, compelling needs, humor and secrets  are very important elements for me.They're more story elements than quest challenges, but don't worry, I'll be delighted to take care of them ;).
And the options you talked about (that are parts of quest challenges) are one of the principal ways to play the role of your character.

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Particularly liked the series of Mirra quests- those were really varied and felt like she had a real story that she was following... I wish the rewards might be a sample of each dish....
Mirra's quests give you a nice way to manipulate the ambient. A nice thought. It could be used more.

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The traveling ones are good for learning the maps and the npcs but daunting when you're new.
That's a point for the travelling ones. At least until you became more experienced.

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Don't like the killing slashing ones. Starting out having to kill rats was not where I thought my character was going but there seemed no other way to train weapons. Wouldn't it be cool if in the arena there was a room with straw dummies for the very very early practicing? I still wish there were more ways to progress without killing...
That's a more rules issue. I'll try to find a solution, but I'm not sure I can do something. interesting point although.

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The best the very best ones for me are the ones where the npcs have involving stories that force your character into some kind of moral choice...
Ehhh, moral choices. I love them :). I'll try to make them deeper, we'll see.

@ weltall:
Thanks for the explaination.

28
Personally I'd like to see more quests that encourage more player interaction. For example the quest requires the player to get something that only a player character can provide.
Yup, they are the social challenge. I avoided to insert them on the list, because I think that the choice become obvious with this ;).  We're implementing them.

the kind of quests I enjoyed the most are the ones that are somewhat out-the-line, e.g. the one in which you serve that little clacker *winks*
then as to what I'm personally missing: quests aren't depending enough on each other imho. most are just of the first 2 types you named which makes it rather boring after all.
I'd really like to see more quests that don't actually require that you have completed another one, but instead require some kind of knowledge you achieved during other quests.
That's a very interesting point, I'll work on it immediatly. And thanks also for the deep answer :).
And more quest options would be nice like: you can run this package across all of creation back to the person yourself and end the quest at some time in the future, or you can pay me and finish it now.
Ehehe. I agree with you, giving player choice is always a good thing, but branching too deep is difficult. About this, the first rule, for me, is: "If you have to create a choice in a storyline, create two (or more) awesome stories. If one is awesome, and the other is only good, that's an error."

I prefer the killing ones  :devil:
Yeah. Killing time :p.

Do I get an opinion on the matter?
Sure. Get it, it matters  :thumbup:.

Personally I like the quests with some story behind them.
Uhm. If you have time I'd like to know more about this. I feel there's a deep message on this. Every quest has a story, so I think you want to say "some kind" of story. I understand that you prefer "hints" over than "obvious direction". And maybe you want to say also something else.

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you don't have to run too much, except when you want to earn extra credit
Wow, that's tied with the optional branching in the quest. A good point. And easy to implement.

@ weltall and Zakrei:
It seems to me that you both would like to change (or add an option) to the menus of the quest. It's a more general topic, and the GUI is pretty away from my competence, for now :p. But thanks, I'll try to think on how to handle this from the inside of the quest.

Thanks for all!  \\o//

29
Hello all. I'm a prospect member of the Setting team, and I'd really like to have your feedback.

Planeshift is full of quests. Every quest (or almost everyone of them) has one or more challenges inside.
I'd like to know the challenge you like the most: the ones that you want more.
And I'd like also your feed-back about the other types of challenge you like less. So, someone could improve them.

Here we are. A list of the challenges I found:
Travel challenge: where a player need to go to another NPC and talk him (or give him something).
Hunt challenge: where a player need to give to a NPC some item found on a monster.
Research challenge: where a player need to give to a NPC some item found on the ground or to buy it on a merchant.
Riddle challenge: where a player need to give an answer to a riddle.
Setting challenge: where a player need to give an answer to a setting/history related question.

I'd like to know your opinion about these types of quest, especially your favourite (and, if you have time, also: why you like it), and, for the one who want to give more:
- Do you think there's something we can do to improve the challenges in the quests?
- If you think there's any other kind of challenge, tell me, and I'll add them.
- If you want, I'd like also to know what are your favourite quests (until now).

I'll be grateful for every information, suggestion, or feedback.

Your opinion matters.

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