Author Topic: mind control  (Read 440 times)

Bonifarzia

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mind control
« on: December 21, 2013, 10:41:51 am »
This does not really belong to the wish list or complaints, so let us put this here.

After having missed another meet the devs, a buddy told me about things that were discussed there, including a new spell that will allow to take control of other characters. (I don't know the official name, so let us call it mind control.) Cool, I thought, could be fun to run around as an ulber. - No, answered my buddy, that won't work on NPCs, only on player characters. - What?! That cannot be. It could cause lots of trouble. - Probably, yes.

So much for that conversation. Still I am curious about this...

EDIT: Resolved  :woot:

We will NEVER add a spell/mechanics that gives players ANY control over another player in any way.


Here is a list of potential hazard that could be done with such a spell. Can some of these points be confirmed or invalidated?
  • Taking control of neutral/friendly players - would make all following points much worse.
  • Use in PvP zones - most likely possible, but an exception may be necessary.
  • Movement - the least you could do with a character you control is move it around, sounds fair. Near cliffs or lava, that is an instant kill, though.
  • Use of consumables - potential to instantly destroy valuable potions and reliably kill the character due to "indigestion".
  • Ability to trade or drop items or money in any way - for obvious reasons.
  • Unlocking or un-guarding things.
  • Combat and magic - which targets could be attacked by the character you take control of? His enemies, yours, both?
  • Glyph research - a hypothetical point, but a quick way to drop health and mana to ~ 0.
  • Use the player character like your groffel/yulbar - sounds quite pointless, but I cant think of another solution not prone to abuse ;)


Sorry for my concerns and thanks for your feedback.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 06:21:13 am by Bonifarzia »

bilbous

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Re: mind control
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2013, 12:19:35 pm »
I do believe that use of mind control is punishable by perma-death but why Thorian Gronk is still alive is anyone's guess. Looks like settings might need being updated,

Rigwyn

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Re: mind control
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2013, 03:29:23 pm »

I'm curious about how this would be represented by the mechanics. The concept of "controlling the mind" is VERY broad.

Quote
I do believe that use of mind control is punishable by perma-death but why Thorian Gronk is still alive is anyone's guess. Looks like settings might need being updated,

Like dark way, azure way is kind of nasty :)

Volki

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Re: mind control
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2013, 10:01:17 pm »
Like /___follow? Or /___stay? Or /___attack!

Why not NPCs, though? You could have a mob-fighting ring.

Like dark way, azure way is kind of nasty :)

Very few people understand this. If your char is an AW master, I assume he/she is a major jerk.
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Candy

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Re: mind control
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2013, 10:54:15 pm »
Allowing such a spell for use on other players is just asking for greifers to come out of the woodwork.
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Rigwyn

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Re: mind control
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2013, 11:03:15 pm »
Allowing such a spell for use on other players is just asking for greifers to come out of the woodwork.

I thought the same at first, Candy, but then I had to ask, are we talking about role playing or mechanics? The thread is about the mechanics, but as far as the role playing side goes, I agree, it might be a little tricky to figure out how to deal with a god modder who thinks he can just read people's minds or make people do stuff.


Venalan

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Re: mind control
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 12:42:21 am »
We will NEVER add a spell/mechanics that gives players ANY control over another player in any way.

However, there are plans to make+release a charm spell that works on some of the NPC creatures.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 12:44:51 am by Venalan »
..

Bonifarzia

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Re: mind control
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2013, 01:59:16 am »

Ah, that is good news and a clear statement, Venalan, thanks.

Seems something was misunderstood badly. I am glad there is no need for this topic, so I will probably clear the first post to avoid further confusion.

novacadian

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Re: mind control
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2013, 02:51:00 am »
Venorel breaths a sigh of relief.

Lumi

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Re: mind control
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2013, 04:12:07 am »
Very few people understand this. If your char is an AW master, I assume he/she is a major jerk.

I disagree with you here. Azure and Dark are different because they are intruse, that's right but the Magic is only "nasty" if you make it "nasty".

Controling mobs sound like a Brown Way Spell tho to me, exept if we are talking of humanoid ones ?
<*> The Way of the Hammer <*>

Volki

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Re: mind control
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2013, 05:19:26 am »
There aren't many AW users (Relaxing Sleep doesn't count). There are some who practice to defend themselves from other azure mages. There are those who wish to be masters. And then there are the masters, a few of whom do it to help society. Then there are the others who abuse it. Even the "good" mages inevitably abuse it.

I don't see Dark Way being nearly as intrusive as Azure Way. They are nasty in their own rights, but I consider the capabilities of AW to be nastier.

Now that Brown Way has been mentioned, I believe I heard about a new spell that was related to mind control, or something similar. I immediately thought AW, but turned out to be BrW. So it probably has something to do with animals.
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Eonwind

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Re: mind control
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2013, 05:37:07 pm »
Just a few words on mind-control/ways and such:
- Mind control capabilities will not and will never allow anyone to control someone else character (especially like a puppet), the new spell will clearly state no humanoid can be affected by this spell, more powerful charme spells will come but they will not allow to charm humanoids.
- Azure Way flavor is about: charming, air, wind, mind empowering and mind hampering (eventually mind-controlling for animal creatures)
- Blue Way is about: water, shape-change (major), and curing (like curing from disease, ...)
- Brown Way is about: earth, minor shape-change into earth bound forms, summoning earth bound creature/forces

I hope this very brief post can clarify a bit the differences about the 3 ways I mentioned, especially about shape changing and mind-controlling. These are not comprehensive of any case or spell can be considered official rules-guidelines for any of you interested in the subject.

Volki

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Re: mind control
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2013, 05:29:35 am »
(Azure Way flavor? lol)

Eonwind, do you have anything to say about the Azure users who roleplay that they can essentially mind-meld? Basically, they go into one person's mind, which can be whatever the meld-ee wishes it to be, and then the meld-er can interact with whatever he/she/it finds. It looks like a dream sequence. I've always assumed that if someone were to jump into another person's mind, it wouldn't be anything like a dream sequence, since I'm pretty sure people don't think like that. I always imagined it being much more subtle, like floating thoughts, impulses, or flashing images and concepts. (Unless they were really dreaming or on hallucinogens, which would be the only time it makes sense.)

Players are also doing this at low levels. I prefer it being left to masters, otherwise everyone can do it, and I honestly don't think anyone should think they can until they've had years of experience ICly. Actually, the entire concept bothers me. People throw psychology/biology out the window and turn it all into magical mumbo jumbo.

I roleplay that my character has the ability to influence animals, and some she would "meld" with (to control and listen to the animal), like her rivnak, but using AW on a person is something she considers dangerous and inappropriate, only to be used in dire circumstances. Even though she is over rank 100 in Azure, I do not consider that a high enough level to use that kind of magic, especially because it seems like something that would require the finesse and experience of a high master. My character has been using AW for years (or cycles), and yet there are many who have just started out and are already "capable" of doing advanced magic like I just described. It's like the entire concept of the thing is lost on them.

And at what rank would one have to be for mind-control? Is there going to be a spell? And what realm will it be?
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Eonwind

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Re: mind control
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2013, 07:34:21 am »
(Azure Way flavor? lol)

Eonwind, do you have anything to say about the Azure users who roleplay that they can essentially mind-meld? Basically, they go into one person's mind, which can be whatever the meld-ee wishes it to be, and then the meld-er can interact with whatever he/she/it finds. It looks like a dream sequence. I've always assumed that if someone were to jump into another person's mind, it wouldn't be anything like a dream sequence, since I'm pretty sure people don't think like that. I always imagined it being much more subtle, like floating thoughts, impulses, or flashing images and concepts. (Unless they were really dreaming or on hallucinogens, which would be the only time it makes sense.)

I don't want to force my view on roleplayers, of course, and as always as long as the people involved agree on the subject it's fine, however my personal opinion is mind-melding or "mind-reading/interacting" can be possible and is compatible with the Azure Way [official] gameplay. I also played it this way myself more than once.
Of course do not expect we actually release such a spells officially :) because "official" spell have to be somehow supported by game mechanics and this effect is pure roleplayed. I also agree interacting with someone else mind and memories is somewhat like trying to catch flashing images and sounds, deformed images (e.g. I may remember a person like if were a giant if I was scared by him), this kind of roleplay is especially interesting because while it doesn't negate the mage powers it allows the mage to receive a few hints about the plot without being a "Mary-sue" (hope you get the idea) and allow the "victim" to give out some hint from his/her own perspective. In my opinion if it's played that opens more roleplaying opportunities instead of ruining a plot.

Players are also doing this at low levels. I prefer it being left to masters, otherwise everyone can do it, and I honestly don't think anyone should think they can until they've had years of experience ICly. Actually, the entire concept bothers me. People throw psychology/biology out the window and turn it all into magical mumbo jumbo.

I roleplay that my character has the ability to influence animals, and some she would "meld" with (to control and listen to the animal), like her rivnak, but using AW on a person is something she considers dangerous and inappropriate, only to be used in dire circumstances. Even though she is over rank 100 in Azure, I do not consider that a high enough level to use that kind of magic, especially because it seems like something that would require the finesse and experience of a high master. My character has been using AW for years (or cycles), and yet there are many who have just started out and are already "capable" of doing advanced magic like I just described. It's like the entire concept of the thing is lost on them.

And at what rank would one have to be for mind-control? Is there going to be a spell? And what realm will it be?

The new spell will allow to control the mind of simple animals (rats, clackers, ...) starting from realm 2. The control over the animal will be almost absolute and the will of the mage will be sent, of course, with a mental link. More spells will come allowing to control more advanced life forms (but not humanoids) in the future. The realm is somewhat low for the first spell because we don't want only the master to be able to access one of the hallmark of the Azure Way, of course only the masters will be able to control more powerful beasts.

About humanoids the matter is totally different: even AW master will not be able to control them like a puppet albeit limited control over them can be attained; a good example is the Mind Paralysation spell, which is able to block (if the spell is not resisted) for a limited amount of time the mental faculties of every creatures, including humanoids. As you may already know it's something only masters can do. Harming someone else mind (by getting inside their mind to harm them) is a bit easier, and possible since realm 3 (example: Psychic Blow).
Of course you can roleplay other effects too, these are only rough guidelines.

About mind-reading well the closest example is the Nature Intuition spell (in realm 3) this can be a rough guideline of what a realm 3 spell can do about mind-reading. Of course realm 3 is master level but still if every single fet can be done only by masters there's no fun left for all the others :)
Logically Adepts and Masters are capable of making a finer use of the same spell or access more powerful spells. Another thing to consider is: while even lower level magician can be able to do a certain feat their spells can be more easily resisted by their victim, of course Master have an advantage over this too.
A rough example: while an apprentice could be able to catch the surface thought of a weak mind a master could be able to dig deeper and examine the deeper recesses and hidden emotions of a stronger mind.

Volki

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Re: mind control
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2013, 07:43:36 am »
Wow, thanks for the response. That answered even more than I was curious about.
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows