Author Topic: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS  (Read 2221 times)

Tlok

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2011, 09:16:57 am »
I'm a new player too (4-6 weeks?) and like the idea of providing some focused feedback. I'm a software developer in real life, and I know I have a hard time seeing my creations through the eyes of a new customer, so feedback from someone who is both new and an articulate observer is very valuable to me. I make this post in the hope that my observations will be helpful to you.

I also want to be clear that I'm probably not the ideal PlaneShift user, but think I rank fairly high on the list - not ideal because Role Play, while enjoyable and comfortable, is not my primary focus in playing a game. I favor games that include it, but combat, crafting, and exploration rank higher on my required features list.

But I am a long time role player - I've played and DMed RPGs for more than 20 years (current group playing semi weekly since 1996), and have even done a little amateur stage and film acting. I'm a professional software developer. I strongly believe in Open Source software, and one draw of PS was the hope that one day I might contribute. I have a strong imagination and have no problem working with something that isn't visually perfect or has glitches - my mind is perfectly able to fill in the details or shift to a different task.

So if you're still reading, I guess I'll do until the perfect players come along ;) - so here's my "new player" take on the game.

It's hard to get into, and has a lot of things that break immersion for me. Here are the big ones -

1) Lack of transparency - if I grew up in the world, I'd have an intuitive sense of "how things worked" - I'd know from stories and probably even experience roughly how much damage a club does, how race and profession affect average stats and skills, and what level of skill is required to accomplish a certain task. The fact that I have to rely on trial and error in this game, as opposed to looking up (or better yet, mouse over) is frustrating and disruptive. If I can get the information nearly effortlessly then my mind can ignore it and it was simply part of my character recalling something known but perhaps not familiar. If I have to go try to look it up, or set up experiments to test, then I am clearly interacting with a computer and not living in the world. This goes for all kinds of rules type information, from how character creation choices affect stats (you show the stats later, why force me to create and destroy a dozen lives to test how the alternatives affect them?) to skill ranks needed to perform certain tasks. And even combat - show (somewhere) what numbers make up the damage taken/done. Something like a combat log or information popup you can enable or disable that shows what my attack roll, strength, weapon type, skill, monster DR, etc. contributions are. I don't want them on all the time, just long enough to transfer the knowledge my character has to me.

2) No mental map - when I go to a new place, I immediately start building a mental map of where I am. Feedback from my senses combine to impress upon my memory paths, spacial relationship, and important features. Peripheral vision, ambient sound and smell, and signals from my inner ear are all blocked by the computer interface I experience Ylikum through, but are necessary for that map. I totally agree a map should not show areas I have not yet been, nor the position of moving enemies (or friends, though I wouldn't mind that for convenience, especially if they were in shouting distance), but it should show where I have been, and show notable features (buildings, NPCs, resources) as they were when I last saw them. When I have to tab out of PS and look at screen shots I've taken, or search the web for a map, it really breaks role play. You can't give the full interface of sound, smell, inner ear, etc., but you could give a map that my imagination would use as a proxy for the mental map my character would certainly build.

3) NPC stonewalling - The world is full of NPCs ... who won't talk to me. That's just frustrating. I'm fine with not handing out quests until I have a chance of doing them, but the NPC should at least tell me what he requires as a prerequisite and what he will give me ("I can help you gain status among the smiths, but Harnquist must train you to work with metals first"). I currently have to run around and talk to all the NPCs, do a quest, and run around to all of them again to see what opened up. This is an acceptable algorithm for a small set of NPCs, but it doesn't scale.

4)Unreasonable delays - so my character concept calls for someone self sufficient enough to make basic repairs. No problem, I'll train a few ranks in repair weapons and repair armor. I save some Tria, buy some kits, and start to practice. 247 seconds?! For one attempt?! Guess what - I tabbed out and checked my email, and got caught up in a discussion about something totally modern. I don't expect to build a sword in one click and 1 second delay, but this was worth a single PP and I couldn't play the game for 4 minutes (and it didn't even work, Lol!). I know you can't grow a fig in a day, but you've made plenty of other compromises to "reality" for the sake of play-ability, this is a prime candidate.

5) Forced social interaction - Maybe you really do want only extroverts and would like to exclude shy people. After all, extroverts are more likely to initiate role play. But in case that is unintentional, you should be aware that forcing people to walk up to strangers and ask for help is a barrier. In fact, even publicly admitting that I find it hard is hard, and I'm defensively shifting it to the 3rd person. OK, I admit, this one is painful to me personally, and I've deleted and re-written this one repeatedly. I've bared my soul in the interest of honest feedback for a project I really hope works, please don't come back with the trite and obvious "but it's a social game, you really should just meet people". It would be an easy thing to have NPCs provide the information you need, and leave "ask other players" as an encouraged but optional choice, not a requirement (where is iron ore?)

6) Weapon/armor repair - Maybe other skills are grindy, but these two really stand out for me - you are forced to fight rats endlessly, first with clubs, then with daggers, and finally with what you want for your character concept because you have to use simple weapons and damage and repair them before you work on more complex weapons, but then you are not able to do any damage with the complex weapon because you haven't trained so you repeat the cycle, still on stupid rats, seemingly forever. And the kits are hugely expensive for a new character, and do almost nothing, or have a high rate of failure. If you let a low repair skill repair any weapon but repair only a little damage, and use a part of the kit proportional to the points repaired then new players could pick a weapon that suited their character concept and work on getting better with that and repairing that. Even if they progress  slowly, they are advancing the character they want, not one they are forced into by the rules mechanic.

Thanks for listening and thanks for putting together a really interesting game. I realize what a tremendous amount of work this is, all for love not money. My comments here are given with the hope that they will help you expand your audience, not to belittle your accomplishment in any way.

Sincerely
Tlok

shrapnel

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2011, 03:27:08 pm »
I'm a new player too (4-6 weeks?) and like the idea of providing some focused feedback. I'm a software developer in real life, and I know I have a hard time seeing my creations through the eyes of a new customer, so feedback from someone who is both new and an articulate observer is very valuable to me. I make this post in the hope that my observations will be helpful to you.

To me, knowing how the basics of how the mechanics should work in general also has the benefit of a better understanding of what can and can't be done, barring design choices that may have excluded the possibility, or disallows them due to major rewrites of functions and/or scripts.

1) Lack of transparency
2) No mental map

I agree here myself. However I don't know if certain changes will ever happen due to the philosophies behind the design choices.

3) NPC stonewalling
4)Unreasonable delays
5) Forced social interaction
6) Weapon/armor repair

The stonewalling does get annoying. Perhaps the responses from when a player manually enters a conversation can be triggered instead of the dreaded "NPC has no quest information." at the least. Those are still in place.

The forced social interaction can be a problem. I have no problem with those who want to RP 100% of the time, or even a fraction of the time. What has annoyed me with other RPGs is the OOC chat that has no relation to the game. Perhaps increase the chat channels, give some limited range and allow OOC talk there, and limit others to IC only. But that's neither here nor there on the forced interaction. I think the ideas suggested here and on the migration of EZPC into ZeroPing may help a little too.

Now the last one can be a bit annoying. I can have repair skills, but yet not be able to repair an item because it's beyond my skill... I have no Idea when I will be able to, how close I may be, etc. That can be discouraging. This hurts the in game economy too. Also, perhaps where skill books are used, a better organization would help, especially since nobody can really study their knowledge books off-line.

Related is the time involved. We have an in-game clock that runs faster than in RL by necessity, yet repairs are in RL time, and can feel like forever. Perhaps research into some lessened times for such things as repairs. Like Tlok, I'm not saying make everything 1 second to do, but assess the current time-to-repair algorithms in light of not boring new users away, or destroying immersion with their length.

Sarva

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2011, 10:22:44 am »
Repair times are based on how much damage you are fixing.  Fixing a weapon that is in 1/300 condition will take a lot longer than fixing an item that is in 285/300 condition. I think the Min repair time is 20 seconds if you are fixing a small amount of damage. The higher your skill the shorter the repair times can be, with the exception that the min repair time is 20 seconds.

Note that Gossip is the universal OOC chat channel while main is the restricted distance IC channel. You can also create your own channel if you want a more limited group than Gossip channel or you can form a group if you just want to have a chat with a few friends.

thalaric

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2011, 07:25:56 pm »
Improving the first hour of gameplay is extremely important. Our reports show that the majority of new players quit after 10-20 minutes. the tutorial has been created to have a smoother experience, but seems we are not yet there. Is the rat killing time the main issue together with difficulty to get tria? What other elements can make the first 20 minutes better?

The tutorial takes longer than 20 minutes. For me the NPC text could have been 40% faster and maybe a bit less detailed. As a new player of course there's rough edges but I see the potential in this game. If I had to pick on just one problem for me, as a warrior based player, I would say: Weapon/Armor Repair. These types of games get you hooked with forward momentum. You grind in whatever form most interests you and you get more and more resources. Mining can be fun, Making stuff can be fun, combat can be fun etc. etc. The fact that you can never repair more than 75% means that all weapons and armour are depreciating assets, even if you have the skill. Why does your repair kit cost 100 tria and get used up? Did the hammer and awl break? Buying things and having them deteriorate at a speed faster than you can replace them is neither fun nor realistic. In my opinion this system has to be drastically reworked so a new character does not have to struggle to become self-sustaining. No one told me not to train Axe because I wouldn't be able to have one.

There is a lot of truth here: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=38763.msg446959#msg446959

(P.S. sorry if this post sounds overly critical, I'm only sharing because I care :)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 07:42:18 pm by thalaric »

bilbous

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2011, 08:31:28 pm »
The 75% repair from the skill description is not completely accurate. I have heard that with enough skill perfect repairs are possible but I am not sure at what level you get there. Still once you reach around rank 35 you can repair almost anything losing only a couple of points of max quality per repair. Repairing something 1/300 takes about 3 steps and quality drops may be somewhat higher than just 2 points.

There are lots of weapons that can be looted some magical and others not. The max quality of a looted weapon is 50/50 whether it is magical or not. You just need to find the right opponents.

I'm not sure why you cannot have an axe perhaps there is a strength requirement your character doesn't meet but the smallest axe cannot require too much strength. Perhaps you just haven't found the right merchant.

thalaric

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2011, 09:25:09 pm »
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I can't have an axe because they deteriorate before I can make 1000 gold killing rats, which is how much it costs to buy a new axe. It's not sustainable for a new fighter character.

thalaric

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2011, 09:39:12 pm »
By the way this thread is about bootstrapping brand new characters. I've never seen a rat drop any weapon let alone a magic one.

novacadian

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2011, 10:36:32 pm »
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I can't have an axe because they deteriorate before I can make 1000 gold killing rats, which is how much it costs to buy a new axe. It's not sustainable for a new fighter character.

Unless there is an RP reason that keeps you from doing so, my advise would be to find a guild you feel comfortable with and join them. The generosity of the community is beyond all bounds in my opinion. There is no reason to do it all on your own unless you want to.

In real life if you beat hundreds upon hundreds of bone bearing mammals eventually your axe would need replacement, There are only so many sharpenings on a blade. Only recently did my character leave her first 300q sabres on the altar stone in Gugrontid. They were about 180q at the time of donation. I cannot even estimate how many rogues were killed by those two blades; let alone everything leading to and including Tufusangs . My hope is someone is out there, still, killing rats with those two wonderful gifts of Chessire. 

- Nova

derula

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2011, 10:47:53 pm »
The tutorial takes longer than 20 minutes. For me the NPC text could have been 40% faster and maybe a bit less detailed.

I think the tutorial is that way because it's supposed to draw interest in roleplaying, and point out that people should roleplay. Than again it mostly promotes game mechanics and can be skipped. I think a large problem of PS is that it's completely torn by different interests. It depends a lot on the community, so all sides need to be heard. All developers have different goals, too. It's a nice example of too many cooks spoiling the broth. Too long development time. Too vaguely defined goals.

Do I think that this kind of development will lead anywhere? Well yes, they will end up with something. It would look similar to what we're currently seeing, only contradicting itself a little more. I do not think PS can be turned into a well-running project that will lead to a complete, consistent, and fun game, if they keep the current overall development "strategy".

Do I think it could be rescued? That's tough to say. A lot of current process would need to be sacrificed.

There'd need to be set goals for the game, goals that will be followed as a group. Goals that are thought through very well. (In contrast, right now the goals more seem to be "Oh, it should allow for roleplay. And there should also be mechanics. And fun, it should be fun for the player." Those are more kindergarden kind of goals)

There'd need to be set rules. I've argued that before, and I won't step back. If you want to have a roleplay based server, it needs to have and enforce roleplay rules. Not just "Please choose a name that is good". Here is an example (German) how rules to a game actually focusing on roleplay should look like. For example, each character must have a multi-page backstory on creation and must be approved by a volunteering player. There also need to be clear rules for GMs. There needs to be a clear way for GMs to decide, which action to take when. Even if stepping down from the roleplay premise, I still think the half-baked existing rules don't suffice.

And lastly, there would need to be a lot more content. This might sound a little generic. What I mean is not only missing graphics or bugs that should be fixed, but also that there needs to be a reasonable setup that can be used, especially if the RP focus is supposed to stay. Take my example I linked above. The game is set on an island which is pretty much not part of the outside world. There is no info given about the island itself (apart from rumors that might be known outside). This is similar in PlaneShift: no information about the game world. Which is good. However, the website contains background story about the whole, huge continent surrounding that island. Countries, towns and landscapes are named and described, history for races is much more detailed; every job available in the game is described in detail, etc. There are no spoilers about the game's content; these are all background information needed to create a well-founded character. If PS is serious about roleplay, they should follow that path.

It would be easier to just step down and say "PS allows for roleplay, but is mainly a game where you can max your stats without a real reward, and then kill innocent animals until you're a millionaire while now and then somebody gets pissed of that you're not roleplaying," because this state is clearly the only one they can and want to enforce.

Edit: I think I got side-tracked a little.

novacadian

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2011, 11:46:29 pm »
Guess my view is that it is not a black and white issue. One can have fun rp on a hunting trip with a group. My character has also rped shooting (or trying to) apples off the heads of the accommodating Bloodstone Brethren at a WAA Event.  We used 1d6 rolls. The world is becoming decentralized. It is an aspect of the Info Age. In my opinion all styles of playing, so long as it is all IC, can be accommodated here. The Chat Windows mechanics and protocols could even accommodate a group of players that only wanted to adhere to a strict rule set. All others can even be ignored.

- Nova

shrapnel

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2011, 01:44:08 am »
I think a large problem of PS is that it's completely torn by different interests. It depends a lot on the community, so all sides need to be heard. All developers have different goals, too. It's a nice example of too many cooks spoiling the broth. Too long development time. Too vaguely defined goals.

Do I think that this kind of development will lead anywhere? Well yes, they will end up with something. It would look similar to what we're currently seeing, only contradicting itself a little more. I do not think PS can be turned into a well-running project that will lead to a complete, consistent, and fun game, if they keep the current overall development "strategy".

Do I think it could be rescued? That's tough to say. A lot of current process would need to be sacrificed.

There'd need to be set goals for the game, goals that will be followed as a group. Goals that are thought through very well. (In contrast, right now the goals more seem to be "Oh, it should allow for role-play. And there should also be mechanics. And fun, it should be fun for the player." Those are more kindergarten kind of goals)

Edit: I think I got side-tracked a little.

You probably have gotten a little side-tracked there. But this does lead me to some questions, and a continuance of the hijack of the thread.

What design documentation exists for PS?
  • Pitch/Proposal?
  • High Concept?
  • Concept?
  • Specifications?
  • Design?
  • Story?
  • Art?
  • Storyboards?
  • Technical?
  • UML diagrams?
  • Test plans?
  • Project Plans?
  • External events?
  • Risks?
  • Script?
  • Audio?
Which ones are open to all to examine? Which ones are available for potential help to examine? Are they all available once accepted for helping? Are these design documents being enforced? Do they need reviewed and updated?

I don't think it is too late to revive the game, but it may take some drastic rework in some areas of thought, mechanics, and code.

thalaric

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2011, 07:00:06 am »
Unless there is an RP reason that keeps you from doing so, my advise would be to find a guild you feel comfortable with and join them. The generosity of the community is beyond all bounds in my opinion. There is no reason to do it all on your own unless you want to.

I love the role-playing and community aspect of the game (that's why a MMORPG instead of a CRPG after all). But the truth is, nobody wants to walk around pan-handling for items and information. Even when you decide to ask for help, that absolutely does not mean you'll get it. I took the wrong gate to Ojaveda and got lost somewhere on the Bronze Road. I asked two PCs in a polite, in character, manner which direction led back to Hydlaa. The first initially responded to my greeting, but went back to mining and ignored my question. The other ignored my greeting entirely but threw some used leather armor at me, I guess as a gift. An hour of wandering around later it was maps on google (I assume bootleg, since PS won't provide any of their own) that led me back home.

By contrast, the most rewarding RP I get in other MMORPGs is hooking up with similarly levelled characters, questing and adventuring, contributing in a worthwhile and roughly equal fashion. This is the RP aspect that should be being pushed, rather than ignoring inequalities inherent in the game. Denying game information and making being a newbie inordinately hard in order to force newbies to be dependant on comparative gods that are strolling around is not a fun system, even if they are in a good mood and might actually grant help.

In real life if you beat hundreds upon hundreds of bone bearing mammals eventually your axe would need replacement, There are only so many sharpenings on a blade.

Actually it takes years to wear through an axe with a wetstone or grinder, while in the game it takes about an hour. I really don't want to belabor this point though because it's not important. Everyone knows it's just a game and not everything is analogous to real life. The more important issue is how it affects gameplay. It simply is not fun on a fundamental level. Why not have stats, skills and spells atrophy everytime you use one, would that be fun? If you read around the forums you'll see everyone is saying the same thing; the repair weapons system as implemented is seriously flawed, especially on lower levels. In fact, it's so obvious that I can't tell if it's just ignorance of the situation, from changes that were introduced after everyone was levelled up, or if there's an aspect of wilful elitism going on here. Such as, "I had to go through it, so should you", or "well, real players don't enjoy combat for advancement so it doesn't matter".

I hope that is not an existing attitude because the effort deserves better. I mean the effort to create a fun, free community owned MMORPG.

Aiwendil

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2011, 07:55:05 am »
You probably have gotten a little side-tracked there. But this does lead me to some questions, and a continuance of the hijack of the thread.
No need to worry...this thread was hijacked as soon as Talad asked how to improve the first hour of gameplay. My initial post was never about new players at all.

I also hugely disagree with
Quote from: Aiwendil
Not enough "action". A lot people want a game like "Diablo". Of course they leave PS again if they couldn't kill something withing the first 5 minutes. A lot people don't care about complicated crafting systems, they want to be able to make a new sword with one click without having to deal with unreadable crafting books and several steps to get to their goal. While I think nothing should be done about this in game as PS has a different target audience I think it's the fault of the official webpage to lure those people in game in the first place.

I'm not sorry for being lured here. It is wrong to think that when a person is interested in hack 'n slashing, he is incapable of being just as interested in community type playing and complexity. I think it's nice that people with different motives are interested in PS and I think it serves to make the game even more diverse and complex, as long as everyone sticks to the rules.
The problem is not you. Good to see you enjoy the game. The problem are the people who didn't know what to expect and so didn't enjoy it.

@Derula: Come on, don't make yourself unhappy. ;) Play for some days, enjoy meeting some old friends and then get as far away as possible again.

What design documentation exists for PS?
...
Which ones are open to all to examine? Which ones are available for potential help to examine? Are they all available once accepted for helping? Are these design documents being enforced? Do they need reviewed and updated?
ROFL...thanks, that one made my day.


Tlok

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2011, 08:39:13 am »
Note that Gossip is the universal OOC chat channel while main is the restricted distance IC channel. You can also create your own channel if you want a more limited group than Gossip channel or you can form a group if you just want to have a chat with a few friends.
That's good, I don't recall seeing that in the tutorial, but that's definitly an aid for assimilating new players - training wheels for RP.

Repair times are based on how much damage you are fixing.  Fixing a weapon that is in 1/300 condition will take a lot longer than fixing an item that is in 285/300 condition. I think the Min repair time is 20 seconds if you are fixing a small amount of damage. The higher your skill the shorter the repair times can be, with the exception that the min repair time is 20 seconds.
The problem isn't the min time, and it isn't the time at max skill, it's the max time at min skill. Mechanincs that work at the top of the scale might fail miserably at the low end, which I maintain is the problem here. In fact, the whole repair mechanic, not just the times, is very unfriendly to new characters, and is a critical part of a new player's experience for a large segment of new players (melees).

I love the role-playing and community aspect of the game (that's why a MMORPG instead of a CRPG after all). But the truth is, nobody wants to walk around pan-handling for items and information.
I whole heartedly agree with pretty much every word of Thalaric's post - well said and dead on. But this line in particular. Even if everyone was stellar, which they certainly are not, what fun is there in getting somebody else to play the game for me? Give me enough clues and resources in game to figure it out on my own, and lighten up on the disclosure restrictions until those in-game resources are fully up to the task.

In real life if you beat hundreds upon hundreds of bone bearing mammals eventually your axe would need replacement, There are only so many sharpenings on a blade.
If by "hunders and hundreds of bone bearing mammals" you mean a dozen or two rats, then maybe the current settings are realistic. Otherwise, not so much so.

And I have a sad anecdote about a player I tried to recruit to the game, but I think it's slightly more relevant to this post so I'll leave it as a reply there
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=38763.msg446959#msg446959

novacadian

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Re: A probably biased view on starting a char in PS
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2011, 11:06:41 am »
Perhaps what needs adjustment is not how long it takes to learn repair but how quickly weapons wear down. This has certainly become an issue, for my character, since taking up the bow.

- Nova