PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => PvP,PK and Thieving => Topic started by: PkEddie on May 11, 2003, 07:16:32 pm
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I already know what the admins plan to do as far as PKing and Arenas but I just wanted to know what everyone thinks, do you want PKing? just answer yes or no and whatever comment you want.
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I don\'t pk\'ing, I hate pk\'ing, if pk\'ing were a person, I\'d kill him. When I play an MMORPG, I don\'t think of greed, I want to enjoy the game with other people. With pk\'ing people hate each other even more just because of a few coins that they lost. I rather fight with a team of people against a big dragon. If there should happen to be pk\'ing which I hope there isn\'t, they should keep it in one little arena and that\'s it.
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Speaking of fighting big dragons, I think as the dragon/whatever big creature there is population decreases, the creature should become stronger, making it harder and harder to kill.
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Originally posted by Kuiper7986
I don\'t pk\'ing, I hate pk\'ing, if pk\'ing were a person, I\'d kill him.
u kinda contridicting urself their... ur pkin him.... ;)
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Not unless pk ment person killing.. In the sense of pking I think in game, that would be irl.. Cant say I wouldnt blame Kuiper tho :P
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(in a Homer Simpson voice) Why You little........!
(starts choking bonez) :)
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Hm, here, try this stick here, you broke the last one beating this dead horse, have another few whacks....
If I wanted PKing I\'d play another game. They\'ve already said, no PK. No PK. Read the text. No PK. So why keep going on about it?
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cause there seem to be a lot of people who do want pk, they won\'t let it go.
And when those have accepted it, a new bunch comes along wondering why this game hasn\'t got the pk they so love.
Then they make a thread about it and then the whole horde decides to make their own thread about it. This\'ll fade until the next load of pk\'ers comes along who don\'t understand.
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i think the devs already sait there\'ll be limited PK ...that is in \"arenas\" or better said in certain areas ...i\'m more against PK, but the \"arena\" idea is very exceptable and is a compromise between both the contradictory positions - the PK and anti-PK
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The problem with compromises is that it often never pleases everyone entirely. I\'ve seen the limited PvP thing implemented. It usually annoyed the non PK\'ers to hear someone in the arena howling for either a rez or a spar partner or that so-and-so is a cheater, and the PK crowd pisses and moans that the entire game isn\'t PvP because \"an arena is lame\".
You can\'t please everyone - the dev\'s should try to please themselves in this regard.
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I agree with Mehallie, you can\'t please, everyone when you are making a game, so the devs will do the game that they want.
I think the DO take attention to the propositions in this forums, but in the end they are the boss.
I too don\'t really want pking , but i agree for a limited one, in some areas clearly defined.
@Kuiper7986 : i Love your sign ;)
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I didn\'t want to enter the PK discussion, but well ^^
No computer intelligence can overtop a human one. No AI has all the genius a human brain has, no processer is powerful enough to predict a human spirit.
Thus you will never find a stronger opponent than a player. All dragons can be killed. All teritories can be explored. The only way to find a real adversary is to struggle against other players.
And THAT is the reason why it important to build a livable SOCIETY, and THAT is the reason why competition between players must be enforced, and THAT is why players will soon realise that teaming up is the best way to archieve something, and THAT is the reason why an absolute forbidding of PvP would be ridiculous. And THAT is why the guild wars / arenas / whatever is proposed by the devs are a necessity.
All our societies are based on competition. And all societies not based on competition failed (look at comunists). Why would it be different on a game where players play for their own pleasure ?
Saying \"we must build a society where teaming up will be enforced\" is absurd if there is no goal at teaming up. Everyone would just play on their own, or only with the same friends. Interaction means competition. But competition doesn\'t mean hate. You can become friend of your opponents.
Conflict (I mean RP conflict : religion war, racism (like elves and dworves), greed of power, competition between guilds, arguments...) is the main way to make the world alive. And on medieval times, conflict was often solved with weapons and blood.
I don\'t totally agree with the guild war that the devs promoted, but since there is no better idea, I cannot but be convinced that it is the best choice until the final game is released. And also that discussing it will only irritate players AND devs.
To sum up : everything to enforce conflict, and to widen the ways to solve them (arenas, but also chess, cards or whatever) cannot but be sources of RP, and everyone would find a \"cathegory\" he would fit.
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Well, I actually can not understand this whole discussion. If the devs did not want to implement PKing because of some principles they have (which would be beyond me... but it\'s their game), OK, accepted.
But it seems to be based at the argument that PKing would be destroying the athmosphere of the game. And that is what is a paradox to me - how can something that is real destroy the athmosphere of something that wants to be an alternate reality?
I know, there are these idiots who run aroud slaughtering people, with a perfect commnity of players who actually play for the sake of playing, there would no restrictions be needed - just like in real life.
But as long as they can not be banned from the game effectively, why not just let them decide for themselves?
Make it possible to decide wether you want to do PKing (and get killed, too, of course) or if you dont (and are invulnerable to player attacks). Of course, you should only be able to set it once a week or something, and with a whole day of waiting untill it is actually changed. Like this, noone will complain (except the die hard newbie slaughterers... but who needs them anyways?), because he can play the way he wants.
Then set some \'peace zones\', where noone can kill a player, like major cities, and make this setting available to guilds, too - and everything will be fine.
It is just as easy.
/c
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paxx (Developer ? Member) ? More on PKing
\"Ok, I?ll clear this last thing up?and this is it, because now I feel stupid going on with this, it is truly pointless to continue until the game is in beta.
50% of the land in the game means 50% of all the land in the game will probably be open to guilds having at each other in some way or another if they are at war, or at least hostile to each other.
This may or not be implemented as written depending on how things in beta goes.
Beta will not happen till many other things are resolved, like combat and equipment?so perhaps ask again in 14 months.
We will not have any consequences for a legal PK and no consequences for illegal PK (there won?t be any) some guilds may even choose to be at war with everyone, thus allowing all war type guilds to be killed by them or to kill them?but that will have to be tested and tried, I am sure it will not be as simple as that.
I have not said Arenas will be the only place guilds can kill each other, the arenas will have different settings and some will be a free for all grand melee, others where you can group will have group on group abilities?others only those of different races or different guilds can attack each other?the possibilities boggle the mind.
As for 90% of the other possible ways to implement PvP it will not be done. No one will be able to pick a player at random and kill them, except in arenas meant for that?the world will have more order then that.
As for your concept that finding someone is hard?it is not a factor because it won?t happen, but in other games with PvP servers?it is done on a regular basis.
If you want PvP there are plenty of other choices, we simply do not want to deal with the grief and the many balancing factors that come with PvP. This is a game about community, not about getting jollies killing people because they pissed you off, you will be able to ignore them.
As for enhancing the game?PvP can enhance many games but this is one that will not feature it. There are many things I feel would enhance many games, but you can?t have all the bells and whistles in a game or you just have a lot of bells and whistles and not a game.
I do not see an issue with this stance, it is simply not going to be there. I personally would love to play a GTA MMORPG, but this is not it nor will it be.\"
And the final word...
acraig (Administrator) ? More on PKing
\"All I can say is give us a chance to come up with a definite system first.\"
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I have to say, PKing is fun sometimes.
BUT
if you have open pk capabilities, you invite griefers to come into play.
does anyone see the problem with this? I play on DT, the pk server of asherons call, I don\'t know how many, if any of you play AC, but there is a definite problem with griefers on that server, you log on as a fresh lvl one n00b, and the second that you leave portal space, you find yourself BACK in portal space, you\'ve just had your first PK death. In five minutes, when you return to pk status, you are dead again, because a griefer has followed you from the starting outpost, and it continues forever. of course, that is an exaggeration, because very few have the patience to put up with it. most log after a few moments. I was only able to manage getting to lvl 15 because I play late at night, and early in the morning, when there are few players on that world. even with the late night hours, and my low lvl, I\'ve managed to accumulate roughly 60 deaths, it\'s a pain. My daytime hours are spent on leafcull where I can be safe from lvl 126 characters hunting me down like a rabbit.
like I said, I enjoy pk myself, but if you make any game open pk, it would make it completely out of reach for any casual, gamer, and would drive most new gamers away. I vote for that old standy, the pk server...
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ok, i beleive that there should be no PKing, if you want PKing, go check out You-Know-what...
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Umm, yah, so here I am, sitting here, and wondering. It\'d be pretty cool to have a no PK environment. I could mine all day, make myself some weapons. Sell my weapons. Make some coin. And do this... Day in, day out. Without a care in the world. No one is going to kill me so what do I care. Making better and better weapons untill one day, I decide... What happened to my life or I decide there\'s no point in this.
In any game, if i have had that oppertunity I took it. I still do. I love to mine, or to be a lumberjack, or anything. I think its great. But I am all for the ability to attack another player on a global scale. I play a game for a sence of alernate reality. Being able to mine or be a lumberjack is awsome. Something I can\'t do everyday of my life. But I need conflict. Something that a AI monster who is in a constant spot \"constantly\" can give me. I need the ability to make alliances for protection against others and the ability to take action against other players.
Lets say I have my favorite mining spot. I go to it and find a little newbie in it. I tell him nicely, this is my \"private\" spot, and you should leave. If he doesnt listen, I am forced to take action. I can injure him substancially but not kill him, giving the warning he deserves. Or (in a non player killing environment), talk him to death...
I know being able to be killed by other players can cause grief. And I know the ability to put in to place a system that controls the ability to kill other players is grief also. But the fact is, if your putting yourself through the pain, joys, and pleasures of making a MMORPG that is enjoyable for everyone, the grief of implementing a player killing system should be insignificant to the amount of grief of making the game as an entirity...
I as a player, would really like to see this game reach its full potential, with or without the ability to kill another player. I personally feel (PERSONALLY) that player killing, used in the right way on a massive scale, could provide a indepth feeling that few games have acheived...
My opinion, you dont goto like it, you just goto read it and look at it both ways. Go to \"More on Pk\'ing\" post if u wana read my basic system that i propose could make Pking somewhat \"real\", its on the last page.
Put your pride aside, and don\'t be so quick to judge...
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the point is pvp will be in arenas etc... not open pkin....
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Bugabear,
On your thoughts that pking on a mass scale if done the right way can provide a lot of depth in a game.
I agree.
However, it will not be done in this game. The decision was not made with little thought or on the fly. It was made after months of discussion. The assumption that you seem to be making, that we (the devs) do not have the foresight or intelligence to see what Pking adds and what it takes from a game, and not decide what better fields the vision of the game, is almost insulting. The only reason it is not, is because I am assuming that it is not your intent.
To debate the pro?s and cons of even limited PK, say once a week, Vs. how it can be used and abused has already been debated by the dev?s. There is nothing in your ?system? that is new to the debate.
When making a game, there is usually a Visionary lead, in this case Talad. That lead has a vision of what the game will be, in our case there is a lot of flexibility, in fulfilling that vision. But at no time has that vision included players attacking other players simply to do so.
Let us apply this example to real life. Now imagine that everyone came back from the dead in a couple of minutes. Now imagine that everyone attacked and mugged who they wanted when they wanted, the only distinction is somehow we where limited to one person a week. And you are saying that only if a guard sees you he can arrest you. Or even if that was not an issue, people just plain disliked you. 2 things would occur, either it would be almost exactly like the French revolution?with no end cause the ones in power don?t die. Or the faction penalty is so high that after a couple of PKs you can not function socially except in a guild, and then the guild should suffer as well for harboring you. So in short time you really can?t enjoy anything because you are not able to function socially and those who can will kill you for satisfaction and social praise.
This will not happen in the game. I have not seen a game world, where people do not test the limits of everything in some way. In most of these cases morality it the first thing to die.
This game will enforce morality on that aspect with an iron fist. So much so that it simply would not enter your characters mind.
Now I may be giving a low morality level to the people who will play our game, but people are attracted to games by what they can do in them.
Now a game that takes everyone?s moral codes and builds on them, would be a very nice game. But it won?t be PS.
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Ok I have thought of a PKing system I can support.
*shock* :-)
Basically Paxx\'s and everyone else\'s point against PKing is that people naturally PK as much as possible because it is nasty and because an MMORPG world (especially a free one) is essentially a consequence-free environment.
However, I do hear and understand and sympathize with the people saying \"what if I\'m really really pissed off at someone who is annoying me?\"
The question is, how can we know whether someone is really PKing because they are outraged or whether they are just griefing others?
The answer is very simple. We let PKers self-select. Let\'s charge them real money for a kill.
We\'ll set up a Paypal account for PS. You pay the Planeshift team $10 and write a note with your account name. When we receive the money, we\'ll set a flag in the game to let you PK one person.
How pissed off are you? How many murders can you afford? :-)
- Venge
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so vengeance... you\'re stacking the game in favor of players who have money, supposing a player comes in with paypal and gives you a stack of cash higher than my right eye(I\'m six and a half foot tall!!!) would he be eligible to make planeshifts his own personal pk playground, a griefer with no limits, cause he can pay for it? if that\'s true, I\'m outta here. I\'m a broke mofo, and proud to be that way,
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Originally posted by tygerwilde
so vengeance... you\'re stacking the game in favor of players who have money, supposing a player comes in with paypal and gives you a stack of cash higher than my right eye(I\'m six and a half foot tall!!!) would he be eligible to make planeshifts his own personal pk playground, a griefer with no limits, cause he can pay for it? if that\'s true, I\'m outta here. I\'m a broke mofo, and proud to be that way,
I think (and I hope) that he was ironic (spelling?). :)
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While it is ironic, it is not a bad idea. Another similar avenue could be that your top 5 skills are reduced by 3?this will mean that you are willing to lessen your character to kill this pain in the butt.
Though anyone willing to donate 20 grand?I am not sure I am opposed to him having the ability to PK 2000 times.
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well, just let me know if you implement the p2pk idea man, I would appreciate the time to abandon ship
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u contridict the whole game with ur pay to kill theory.. \"game will aways be free\" etc... just keep pkin in an arena or safe place so everyone is happy. i wanna pk but i dont wanna have to pay a \"free\" game to do it
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I think PKing makes every game even better than it already was. PvM is alright, but PvP, WOW!!! I think a system where each person had to agree to going hostile would be better though, that would be the ultimate PvP system. That would make it fair for people who DONT like Pking, and fair for us who absolutely LOVE it!!!! :)
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Thats a horrible idea. And what about the person who died because of that person paying $10? Yes, thats extremely fair (NOT). A game without pking isn\'t much of a game at all. PvM isn\'t a challenge at all, but PvP IS.
I mean, sure, first time you\'re exploring the world, it might be nice to just do it alone. Go figure out what there is, find out what monsters there are, and just run around carefree. But when you get more experienced at the game... Monsters aren\'t going to cut it.
Sure, you can beat a couple monsters. You can slay a few dragons. Woop-de-doo. The REAL challenge is being able to outwhit another person somewhere out there in the world. Now THAT\'S an amazing feeling.
Again. PvP where *BOTH* players accept to go hostile would be the best. That would make everybody happy.
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i know in mulitple games there are seperate worlds each world has a different town religion etc. at the town hall you select whether you want to be a combatant or a civilian. a civilian cannot be attacked but a combatant can. only players from another world can attack a combatant and if they choose to go between worlds their are many people waiting to fight them so only stronger will go threw. There is also an arena with a minimum level requirement to go in. I think that the town hall would be a good thing so you can select if u wanna be able to attack or if you just wanna fight monsters or smith mine etc.
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No way Bonez - the town hall is for the tourist
paying for a kill is stupid - look at OJ
let the players enforce for themselves - just give them the abitlity to do so
some players should be keepers of the peace - if a PK happens in their town - then it\'s the hanging tree
admins should enforce good morals - but stay out of sight
if you want to risk your life wander into regions where the Kings patrol does not go!
let\'s make real men (or women) of those adventurers!!
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Originally posted by Vengeance
Ok I have thought of a PKing system I can support.
*shock* :-)
Basically Paxx\'s and everyone else\'s point against PKing is that people naturally PK as much as possible because it is nasty and because an MMORPG world (especially a free one) is essentially a consequence-free environment.
However, I do hear and understand and sympathize with the people saying \"what if I\'m really really pissed off at someone who is annoying me?\"
The question is, how can we know whether someone is really PKing because they are outraged or whether they are just griefing others?
The answer is very simple. We let PKers self-select. Let\'s charge them real money for a kill.
We\'ll set up a Paypal account for PS. You pay the Planeshift team $10 and write a note with your account name. When we receive the money, we\'ll set a flag in the game to let you PK one person.
How pissed off are you? How many murders can you afford? :-)
- Venge
What if you make a kill cost a quadrizillion dollars?
\"I\'ll kill you!!! As soon as I can afford it!\"
\"If I win the lottery, you\'re a dead man!\" X(
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samoth, if that\'s all the enforcing there is, planeshifts will become nothing more than a griefers playground, and you know it would, I already posted how I think open pk should be enforced, give em some SERIOUS consequences
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Pk\'ing is cool cause you can PK the PK\'ers. But the again if there was no Pk\'ing, then you wouldn\'t have to worry about Pk\'ing. But Pk\'ing does add a bit of parinoia to the game which i like. I don\'t know wat i think. DOH!
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NO! to wild and random pk\'ing X(
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hehe, like I said in another thread, it could be taken care of simply... with punishment by perma death.
if a player attacks another player without reason, they get flagged by attack by guards, if the guards get the kill on him rather than a player, the character is taken to the gallows and is deleted...
rather nasty way of doing things, but hey, can you imagine anyone wanting to random pk if they knew that they were going to lose the character for it
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I\'m against random pk as well, but pking in guildwars and arena\'s is extremely fun... I\'ve said so before, and I say so again... Oh and I like your idea, tyger, with hanging violators :D :P
EDIT: forgot a word :P
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*chaws on some grass, watching a swinging corpse, ignoring the foul stench, hitches up his jeans a bit, straightens his star*
\'tain\'t nothin like a hangin to teach them lawbreakers some respect
*tips his white ten-gallon hat, and rides off into the sunset*
:p
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Aww... Tyger, you\'ve spent way to much time with those rednecks! :P
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not really, just seen too many of those campy westerns hollywood produced that were nothing like the real thing
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tygerwilde - I agree with you - if there is going to perma-death for a player we should definitely make a spectacle out of it. The player involved should be allowed to scream all the way to the gallows. A governor chosen from the players should be allowed to issue a stay of execution.
The game should require a verifiable e-mail address, so that the grievers do not return.
I imagine a world where greavers are held in check by the majority, Wild West style.
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to some extent you\'re right, yet I\'m not saying this to exclude them from the game, but teach them a lesson, when they lose a character they\'ve put a lot of hours into, they\'ll think again before killing another player unnecessarily.
oh, and your email idea wouldn\'t work at all, hehe, I\'ve got fifteen accounts myself
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player killing... i dont see why not.
Im for anything that makes the game more interesting.
One interesting thing that i would suggest:
Some ideas for making it easier:
I saw in another game, that if you die below a certain levle you lose no points and no junk, you cannot be stolen from.
Also an automated Police system to make life hard on people with bad Pk records. -- have to be tested. for what is a BAD pk record-- but if a person has a lot of complaints against him... from different people then he gets an angel of death to make life hard on him.. or banashed to HELL for a while.
Also my idea for theiving, is that theives can only take the items off the \"top\" of the pouch that way if people want to protect themselves they put their important stuff on the bottom and use storage for rest.
Just some thoughts
also... is the society going to allow for wars?
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What if you wanna kill someone you should put a bounty on his head so one can go bounty hunting. And there should be a minimum amount to that bounty so you won\'t afford to kill many players. And also the person who has a bounty on his head could pay a fee to have it removed. Also could implement some kind of karma(that shows how good you are) multiplier, so you would pay less to have the bounty removed if you were a \"good guy\" and more if you weren\'t.
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Pking is ok as long as it is down in certain areas. If someone would come along a just kill it would suck. So the arena idea is a good comprimise.
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bah keep having trouble deciding what to post this should be last time i edit this...to make pking to where its not common (if youve played helbreath youll understand what i say) make it to where theres extreme consequences such as making it to where the person can be attacked by anyone, temporarily dropping their stats by say 50% so they cant be confident that no one can kill them, and make it something like a 10 minute period of time
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OK here\'s my idea. PvP, as in duelling, could be done anywhere, but both people would agree to the duel. You wouldn\'t lose anything, and you could maybe make a bet on who will win. As for pking, there would be a \"battlefield\". What would add a tactical element to travelling through the game would be if this warzone was in the middle of the map, but there were ways around it. So it could be between the two major cities, and if you wanted to travel there you could either take the risk, walk round or pay a fee to travel thorugh safely, like get a bus or buy a temporary invincibility amulet to pass through. There could be arenas in the cities for people wanting to vent their anger, or for guild wars or large battles, as well as the battlefield.
I know this isn\'t strictly related, but while I\'m talking about arenas, what about a gladiator kind of thing where you pay a fee to fight against some really tough monsters in the arena and if you win you get a prize? Or how about tournaments between players?
Edit: Spelling
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Well, i currently play an other MMOPRG that has free accounts, and both PvP and non-PvP servers.
On PvP-Servers you can be killed everywhere but in certain areas like temples, and in the intro-tutorial.
Basic problem: any MMORPG, and especially a free MMORPG, will attract people (usually young people) who only find fun in the game if they can ruin someone elses day, or think the game is just quake with more items.
On PvP servers, these guys will happily kill you for any reason including \"beeing there\". If they are finally too wellknown or get banned, they just start another free account, power-level for one or two days, and continue.
On Non-PVP servers, these guys will annoy players. Block ways, block respawns, camping, luring monsters, steal, insult, etc. Unfortunately, in my other MMORPG the only way to handle such things is PvP.
So, you basically have the choice between a world of psychopatical mass-murderers and a world of idiots and thieves.
I wish you much luck in finding a good solution for this dilemma :)
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Player killing to me is a good idea but not if its all out random attack if someone wants to kill you there should be a notice or something for a duel and you can decline if there isnt gonna be this option people from extreme levels would kill a newbies for no reason there are alot of meen people out there lol
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read Some clearing up. (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=4022&boardid=21&styleid=3) if you haven\'t already.