Your thoughts on death and the death realm.

[Giraut Mawhrin]

an addendum to my post about stats cutting, it wasnt about cutting per se but mals and bonuses for staying extended periods within the DR i.e you may loose some physical strength but gain far more mental strength than possible outside the DR.

I have two problems with your idea. The first is technical, the second is "ethical".

From a technical standpoint, real-life playing time and relative in-game playing time don't relate well at all in Planeshift, probably because of some bugginess in code. The best example is the Dakkru curse, which can last forever if you sit it out politely in-game, or disappear in 2 minutes if you log out and back in. If anything is to be based on that mechanism, it'll almost certainly fail to be fair and GMs will get an unending stream of complaints. I suppose it's fixable though.

From an "ethical" standpoint, I think it's important to realize that the true cost of any skill/weapon/item/glyph to the player (not to their character) is the real-life time they spend acquiring it, be it through questing, mining or anything else. Real-life time is time of your REAL life you devote to playing that you'll never get back. It is a truly valuable commodity for players, and it's the real reason why people bitch and moan when mining or training gets more difficult. I reckon real-life time is a very high price to translate into a game character's abilities (that incidentally are supposed to be wiped out sooner or later, or so we've been promised ). It's a bad idea to ask people to transfer raw time from their real lives into their character's virtual life, so to speak. Players who have powerful characters did spend a lot of time building it up, but they *did* something during that time (quests, craft...), they didn't wait like lemons in a certain sector for their stats to go up or down.

If you want to give players the possibility of (knowingly) lowering some of their stats to benefit other stats, fine, but do it through quests, or other mechanisms that involve the players' intelligence, knowledge or skills. At least they'll spend the time intelligently.

So those that visit the DR and immediately follow the path to the exit (current or as per Giraut's proposal) would notice no difference while those that choose to stay would gain enhanced levels of INT/CHA/WIL in excess of anything possible in Living World while loosing STR/END/AGI these changes would also slowly revert on exiting the DR  unless an amout of time (to be ascertained) in DR had been exceeded.

It wouldn't work. You'd end up with a bunch of people constantly idling in DR to prepare for some event or other outside, or even people with a main character doing normal things outside, and one or two alts in DR parked near the portal, "recharging", ready to go with super-duper skills when the need arises, again packing DR full of zombies. Bad idea IMHO.

[Mordraugion]

Your first point Technical  I dont mean real life time I mean actual time spent logged in and active, participating in the expanded DR and its quests not idling unintelligently.
You can't compare a theoretical un-coded idea with the hastily implemented Curse, which as you mentioned was only done to cut down on the use of the DR as a spawnpoint shortcut.

I'm not sure where your ethical concerns come from would you be concerned if a player chose to do a quest knowing it would give enhanced stat A at a cost of reduced stat B? Life is about choices as is PlaneShift if I choose to play a dark evil character should I be surprised if the nice ones dont like me? 
I'd expect a player who has spent time and effort maxing out a char in STR/END/AGI to use said intelligence to not hang around the DR. It's an actual considered choice to remain after all.

[khoridor]

[...] You'd end up with a bunch of people constantly idling in DR to prepare for some event or other outside, or even people with a main character doing normal things outside, and one or two alts in DR parked near the portal, "recharging", ready to go with super-duper skills when the need arises, again packing DR full of zombies. Bad idea IMHO.

Good point, but there are parades to that as well.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Glad to hear some good ideas and not the same back and forth arguments.

I hope to get the bug that lets folks hack the curse taken care of asap.

[Illysia]

Hmm... Giraut Mawhrin got me thinking and I don't think this idea has been suggested before, although the Devs might has something like this in mind and I just don't know of it. I admit now though that it would have to be implemented way in the future. The idea is that of a native realm and everything stats wise being affected in relation the character's native realm. Since in the future the DR with be as fleshed out as Yliakum, some characters should be able to start there as their native realm and others would start in Yliakum as their native realm. Maybe have everyone start with Yliakum as the native realm and then have a one time quest to switch it to the DR.

The basic premise is that whatever stat building was done in the native realm would be the basis for their stats in any real. Any stat building done in the other realm would last only as long as they stayed in that realm. So if you truly needed to build stats for something in the other realm you could do it. However, you'd do it with the knowledge that as soon as you go back to your native realm you stats would revert back to whatever it was before you went to the alternate realm. However any stat building you did in the native realm you stand regardless of which realm you were in. Maybe it would be an effect of being under the influence of alternate crystals and your native realm was determined by which crystal you were attached to.

Admittedly, this would not do anything about the people just passing through but it could add a dimension to game play and make sure no one goes hopping around for special boost from another realm. Although special boosts in your native realm would be nice as long as the people in the other realm had equivalent boost even if not the exact same.

Other things too could be affected by this system like not being able to build lasting faction points in the other realm as it would go away as soon as you got back to home turf, and it would be a way for people to justify staying in one realm or another. It could even expand to fit other realms that would be introduced later. Mind you though, even I think this would be a bear to code.

[Psignosis]

My 2 cents worth...

The Death Realm should be evil for followers of the Dark way.

It should allow Player vs Player killing. While you cant effectively die, you will have to start again if somebody catches you. This is quite annoying and will make it harder to escape. It will also act as a very strong deterrent to not end up there in the first place.

Those who choose the Dark path should be allowed to make the Death Realm there home. Such creatures have few friends and live isolated lives, hiding in the darkness and scavenging on whatever comes there way. The Realm should be very large, a labyrinth of mazes with lots of places where you can hide from other people. There should also be lots of trainers and shops so you have little need to go to the surface. You could effectively live out your days in the Darkness and never surface unless you needed to.

Dark Way spells should be more effective in the Dark region as White/Crystal Way should be weaker. The Death Realm should not be a place for those following any of the  righteous paths.

A characters eating habits should change as they become more evolved in the Dark path. Common food should become poisonous to an evil creature as they inevidably only feast on the the corpses of those fallen. It is quite possible that a student of the darkness may never regenerate health unless having eaten of his victims in the dark realm. While walking about on the surface may seem like a good idea for a while, never regenerating health could pose a problem for one evolved in the Dark path forcing them to return back to their realm should they need a fresh supply of corpses. Inevidably, regeneration may need a spell draining the health from someone already living.

The Dark path should never be advertised... it should only ever be found by those who have ever stumbled upon it by chance.

I imagine a labyrinth of dark walls (in other words, no open spaces or predictable walkways)... lots of corners making things unpredictable and hard to see. People can hide and instantly jump out to start attacking you at any moment. Its the realm of fear where all most people want to do is escape as quickly as possible.

You could require that the fallen reposses a new body in order to rejoin into the land of the living again. They may need to sacrifice a corpse to enter back into the real world or kill a creature (npc? player?) in the death realm to acquire one. For the pacifists among them, there could exist a quest that takes ages to complete. This would then ensure their return back to the living without having to fight. People would be running around the realm like scavengers trying to get back their once held life again. This would also imply that certain people wouldnt have the skill to make it back and would need to train simply to make it out of the Death Realm with their soul.

There should be an economy built on corpses from the living. Characters can establish Dark Guilds and head to the surface in order to acquire corpses from the slain. These corpses could be offered to their guild, used to improve a characters power or as an offering to the almighty to strengthen the Dark ways. The higher the level of corpse, the more potent its effects can be. Should the white/crystal way have a favourite animal (unicorn?) then bringing back the corpse of a pure animal could serve as a great achievement (or a devil if your a scholar of crystal way).

Naturally, those serving the path of good, have the right to defend the innocent from the evil and to stop them from coming to the surface to take peoples corpses.

Anyway... dont know if any of these ideas spark food for thought...

[Rigwyn]

I'm under the impression that the death realm is not necessarily an evil place however it also appears that dakkru is somewhat sadistic. ( One of the dr books describes her breaking some's arm and smirking .. Forgot which book )

I like the idea of adding support for necromantic arts but as discussed elsewhere there's a bit of a problem with obtaining corpses given the way death works.
I also like the idea of one's mental stats being dominant in the death realm and vice versa...

For this to make sense though, I think a few questions would need to be answered:

1. Is the mind a product of the physical brain or does it exist separately in a mental plane? ( Is the brain merely a flesh-radio )
 - Would the mind and mental stats perform better in the death realm or perhaps in a plane where the body is not present ?

2. Is the body that you house in the death realm the same physical body that you possess in the plane of the living ?
 - If so then it might not make sense to have separate physical stats as they would pertain to the body (or perhaps to how well the mind controls the body)
 - if the body one posses in the death realm is different - or perhaps is an illusion then perhaps separate stats would make some sense.


Just my two cents.

[khoridor]

My favorite thread. I read it again in full, and decided to add a couple of things to the pool of ideas:



1) Being very fond of seeing some form of decay, I've been thinking of one that hasn't been mentioned so far; one that would maybe not apply to all the DR, but to most maps, or at least to one large explorable map: Through time, a character loses agility and speed. After long enough a time, having spent minutes moving veeeery slowly, one freezes totally, and is only able to speak, quickly not even able to shout. Complete petrification is on the way. 

With a good balance, complete petrification is not possible for a player's character, unless that player tries really hard or everybody hate him so much that noone would ever help. The map however contains some "NPCs statues", giving evidence that people can get lost forever in the DR.

Ways to avoid this form of decay include:
- An amulet, or a spell, given to Dakkru followers with a high faction rank (e.g. 80)
- A crystal way (3rd or 4th rank) spell that restores a tiny bit of stats (enough to get through alone at decent skill level, with a group of people at high skill level)
- A player-made alchemy recipe blocking the decay for a while (how long is quality dependant). Ingredients do not come from the DR, except maybe for one rare one.
- A small occasional safe zone, where stats don't raise back, but at least stop going down.
- Possibly a rare edible thing, found in the map itself, but with nasty side effects. That would also be the alchemical ingredient mentioned above.

I see this as being balanced so as to be fun and challenging instead of a severe punishment. In the worst case, people would have to wait helplessly for a while until someone helps them with a spell or a potion. I see it also as a good source of lore and stories.



2) I believe it would be good that the game keep a record of how one died.

The first, practical use is to be nice to bug victims. Those could then avoid the DR altogether. It may sound useless for bug free PS v1.0, but... 

Anyway, where it can get fun is if people are sent to a map that reflects the way they just "died". For example, if you fall and shatter your body, you are sent to a map full of high and narrow ledges, aerial bridges, etc. (akin to most of the current DR). You can take that as adding insult to injury, or as a chance to practice. If you burn or drown... well, you get the picture. I won't list all possible ways of dying; besides, some of them wouldn't lead anywhere special.

Now, the most common form of "death" is through combat. It doesn't sound great to have a map full of fighting mobs, or an open PVP one. Therefore combat death would lead nowhere special, unless the death blow is considered, e.g., if it's a flame spell, you go to the burning map, if someone squashed your head with a piano, you go to the music map, etc. 

[Fyrre Tijorra]

I wish it was easier to tell what the mood of the Death Realm is and clear whether it's supposed to be a horrible place that should be avoided at all costs or something that's just necessary for coming back to life and not really a big deal, so people wouldn't have to argue about that. The DR is dark and creepy enough to suggest that it's not a fun place, but, like the player, do characters get used to the journey over time to the point where staying there for a little while wouldn't be so bad? Is just being there after their first time unsettling? Painful? Traumatizing? Or not so different from Yliakum?


I'd like to see the eye between the two stairways near the exit as an important part of leaving the DR. It could see into people's souls or minds or whatever and judge if they're worthy of leaving yet or not, as a kind of helper for Dakkru.

Someone who died in a situation like attempting  to steal or murder would have to take the staircase to the left and go on to more challenges in part of the expanded DR. Maybe that eventually leads to another monster that gives some sort or riddle or challenge like the eye did. If they try to take the other staircase anyway, the eye could somehow stop or hurt them.

If the character died when helping or trying to save another, or just fell off a cliff , they would be allowed to take the right staircase to the portal (or take a safer route to the way out if the portal moved).

This is probably way too complex and impossible to implement, but it would be cool if being able to track how someone died caused the eye to make the trip out of the DR shorter for those who had bug-related deaths. I think it would be fun to at least rp a reason for the eye.

[Geoni]

It is a big deal for a person to have to die and go through the death realm and I think like many others do, that this should be taken more seriously by the players that control these characters. When it comes to the idea of the eye, why not RP that yourself? It could set a good example for other RPers that might want to do the same and give the eye some part of the settings. Even if it probably wouldn't be the #1 priority of implementation, I like the idea of a riddled passage, and only one side opens based on the answer of the character or something like that. There are pro's and con's, a con being that people might learn the system of the riddles and abuse it, but overall I like the idea and it gives some life and setting support to the death realm.

[Sarva]

When I started playing Planeshift I was told once that if you die it is bad RP form to return to the place you died or let the people who saw you die see you again in less than 12 game hours from the time you died.  Personally I think it is really bad RP to have someone die in front of a group of people and then have that character return in 5 minutes acting like nothing happened at all. I don't care how much of a Dark way master you say you are or how much of a follower of Dakkru you are you shouldn't just rush out of the DR as fast as possible and return to what you were doing as if nothing has happened.

Think of it this way if death really is such a casual thing then it eliminates a lot of the drama in the game. How is the bad guy suppose to be threatening when he takes a hostage if everyone knows the hostage will be out of the DR in a couple of minutes so there is no reason to give into the demands of the bad guy and you might as well just rush him and capture him. what is the point of going through the effort of trying to heal a character who is desperately sick or injured if you know the character will just be able to glide through the DR. Heck it would be better to prevent any additional suffering of the sick or injured person by killing them so they can be restored in the DR and they can just just hop and skip through the DR and be back in the company of their friends in a couple of minutes.

Maybe if players will not respect the DR on their own then we need to put in a game mechanic. When you get sent to the DR a random number of game hours is assigned to you which represents how long it will be before your character can leave the DR.  Making it random each time will maybe discourage players from casually killing themselves since they will not know if they will be stuck in the DR for 1 game hour or 10 game hours.

[EStripus]

@Sarva: I like the idea, it would make players think twice about casually killing their character to "go check" for someone/something. It will also require a much more serious commitment for the people that need to train skills in DR. I wonder if the devs can design it so that login/logout doesn't work to wipe the DR countdown of the randomly assigned time limit.

Only problem is at the moment, people still go to DR from lag during mob battles. That should smooth out as the game continues its development, though.

@Fyrre: A wonderful idea also.

Perhaps if they use the random time limit to determine when you can access the eye to get your riddles to even try and find the portals.  Then, people can not so easily abuse the riddles when they figure out the system, but the DR would have more of a personality and continue to be in the spirit of puzzle solving.

[Phage]

If setting havent change since, then..


..entering the DR means that character would have to wander around aimlessly, faced by threats, not knowing where to find an exit portal, moreover, not knowing whether to find an exit portal at all. Such a trip could take years, in the worst case a lifetime (note: time passes differently over there) - one could consider this a traumatic experience for anyone lucky to have exited.

Everyone claiming to RP well and according to the setting, and taking death of the character easy is a bloody noob. The DR is meant to not look like it does look right now, mechanically, with the exit at its given location. It is meant be a huge maze, with portals popping up randomly. If your character is lucky it would find one popping up in its face.

Either way I am unaware of a proper description of the DR available to the player anywhere (except for hidden somewhere ingame ICly, which would be ridiculous enough if you think about it consequently), or the DR is simply not defined yet - wait, theres that third explanation: Devs just wouldnt want to have players know about it, but wanting them to play it properly (if that makes sense.. who cares, its PS).

My opinion: Explain properly in the Guide what is the DR meant to be!


..but if have settings chanced since, just start a new thread and discuss it over again.

[Illysia]

Nah, there is nothing to enforce it so if a large enough group of players want to RP it that when then who's to stop them? There are only two options really... ignore it or go with it. Ah how the mighty has fallen... -_-