Make Planeshift easier to play?

[Sangwa]

And you pointed it out so perfectly I stole your idea.

[Munificence]

As an actual new player who came into this game with no preconceptions (albeit a dedication to open source software, and some development experience), I agree with those saying the learning curve is impossibly steep for new players.

My personal experience has been as follows:

The tutorial was fairly generous with Tria, and also gave me a shortsword as a quest reward. Once I got out, I was ready to go and get some sword training and start becoming a warrior. Oops... I have no idea where a sword trainer is. After asking around, I did find the sword trainer, and trained sword. I also bought a longsword, and spent most of my tria thinking it would be easy to make that much back (i mean, if the tutorial gave me 4200 or so...).

Boy was I wrong.

With a short sword in one hand, a longsword in the other, I was able to kill one eyed rats with ease. Diseased rats, clackers, and virtually every other mob except one-eyed rats were absolutely unhittable, and even in bloody stance I could not penetrate them. No matter. After a couple hours killing rats, I had made a couple thousand trias, trained another level of swords, but was doing LESS damage per hit. I looked into the problem, and found my swords were diminishing rapidly in quality. Damn...

I thought I might repair them... nope, even with a couple points in repair weapons (after buying some clubs and working on them) I still can't repair them, and merchants don't offer a repair service (why the hell can't Harnquist fix my sword for me?). Even if I were to run around asking players to fix my stuff for me, most new players will get turned off by being so helpless. So now as a brand new player, I've sunk all my money into training swords, I can't make money fast enough to replace the swords, and lack the skill to repair the sword the tutorial gave me (think about how bad that is in terms of game design...). In other words, I'm losing money by hunting, and actually my damage keeps going down as my sword's durability declines.

Any sane player would give up at this point, as nothing has instructed them to get magic, the only thing that I can kill is rats who don't even drop enough tria to train my weapon repair skill, and still I have to spend money and levels repairing clubs to level up that skill just so I can sustain my sword training!

The only reason I got past the first two hours of play is by reading a guild website full of spoilers that directed me to kill Kikiri, which drop feathers and meat at a much higher rate (and resell value) than rats. Even then, I had to run from Oja to Hydlaa to train, as my weapon level is too low to get training in Oja.

So let's make a list.
1) Tutorial gives me a choice of weapons that decay within the first two hours of gameplay.
2) There's no way a newbie could repair those weapons, or afford the training to learn how to repair those weapons based upon what they are capable of hunting.
3) Even with the tria given by the tutorial, most newbies will blow it buying weapons and armor rather than training clubs or unarmed (the only viable newbie weapon skills)
4) There are only two mobs for newbies to grind, and one of them is in a higher level city (Oja), and the other doesn't drop enough tria to allow them to train and repair their weapons (Rats).
5) The quests and process of learning magic are too convoluted for new players.
6) I decided to try and make some money for crafting. With 1 rank in mining, I unearthed 8 iron ore in one hour of digging. Looking over my chat log, I had one successful dig for every 12-14 unsuccessful digs (and this is a nice sample size). You think a noob is going to stand there all day digging iron with that kind of success rate?

In short, no sane player would stick with this game for more than a few hours. Most newbies don't want to run around begging for help. Most expect there to be a gradual increase in difficulty as they progress, but to be hit with absurd difficulty and impossible progression right of the bat is bad design.

Fixes:
1) Why is mining so hard? The crappy stuff like coal and iron should be relatively easy for newbs, while the higher level ores should be difficult even for the most trained miner. It makes absolutely no sense.
2) Why do newbie weapons decay so fast, and why is weapon repair so difficult and expensive?  Give Harnquist an option to repair weapons for a rate affordable by a newbie.
3) Why be so stingy with giving tria to new players? Why not up the number of drops, or value of drops for One-eyed rats? The only people killing them are new players, and new players currently can only kill ONE MOB IN THE ENTIRE GAME unless they run to Oja.

I mean, if you like having less than 100 people per server, leave it how it is. Only the tiniest minority of people are sticking with this game beyond a few hours.

[B3SERK]

I had a similar problem when I started, but I made money by mining, then just bought new weapons, never tried to repair old ones, either way, I went magic instead, much easier to farm PP, except leveling magic will drain your money so fast, it's like you never even had any cash to begin with, however, you don't end up in an endless cycle of repairing weapons and killing things, hopefully being able to afford training on the way.

[Mask]

Maybe this could be fixed with giving new players more informations to begin with. Joining a guild or using the /help channel also might help.

[Tlok]

As an actual new player who came into this game with no preconceptions (albeit a dedication to open source software, and some development experience), I agree with those saying the learning curve is impossibly steep for new players.
<snip>
6) I decided to try and make some money for crafting. With 1 rank in mining, I unearthed 8 iron ore in one hour of digging. Looking over my chat log, I had one successful dig for every 12-14 unsuccessful digs (and this is a nice sample size). You think a noob is going to stand there all day digging iron with that kind of success rate?

This post was referenced in a currently active post, http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=40426.msg453975#msg453975 and my anecdote is relevant to both but to this post more directly, I think, so I'll post here despite the age.

My anecdote is about a perspective recruit put off by the mechanics. My wife plays almost every game I do, perhaps not as much on some and more on others, but we like to mostly do things together. With a new game I'll usually get started and give her the cliff notes version so she doesn't have to read through a lot of often confusing directions.

So a few weeks ago, when I'd been playing for 20 or 25 hours, she sat with me to watch. I mined 5 ore for Harnquist, killed a couple of rats for tria and PP, and tried to repair the 10 or so points of damage my clubs took.

It took an hour.

By the end she was incredulous "Wow, that is the most booring video game I've ever seen you play"
"Yeah, but it's supposed to get better when you get to higher levels"
"How long will that take?"
"I don't know, I've been playing a couple dozen hours, and I have maybe half a dozen of the 30 skills up to 1 or 2 percent of max, so probably quite a while. But it would go a lot faster if you joined me and we could chat while we did it"
"Yeah, right. I'd rather do something more exciting, like paint some minatures and watch them dry"

Fast forward a few weeks, I've got another couple dozen hours under my beltand have a few skills to 5 or 6, and some stats into the 70s. More ore, more rats, more repair. Maybe I've got it down to half an hour or 40 minutes. I could tell she was struggling to keep an open mind, but her pronouncement was hardly a surprise "You're on your own on this one, this is way too slow and booring for me"

This is doubly sad. It's sad because she is a player almost certainly lost to the game forever, but it's also sad because the game can never be a primary game for me without her. People who are not enthusiastic role players can still contribute significantly to the game, even just providing a social fabric. What acting troup wants to play to an empty house? I've provided an extreme example, but how many people wander off because the the server is just too empty? Who would have stayed if there were more people, even if those people were OOC half the time? Just seeing someone working at the forge or cooking in the kitchen while I talk to the NPC adds atmosphere and improves the experience.

I think the enthusiastic role players are seen as the best the game has to offer, the shining grapes on a young vine. I think people forget, though, that while you can afford to prune many leaves to encourage the grapes to grow, if you prune too many the grapes will wither and die.

I realize I'm a newcomer, and I've just admitted that I'm probably not going to be a dedicated fan, so my opinion probably won't cary much weight. But an open source community developed MMO is idealogically appealing to me, and I hope the time I've taken here can help the game in the long run.

Thank you
Tlok

[novacadian]

But an open source community developed MMO is idealogically appealing to me, and I hope the time I've taken here can help the game in the long run.

It would have been nice to pre-arrange an RP with members of the all female DoX Guild and your wife, take her to the Ball on a Date Night, anything but an evening in the sewers. No wonder the girl turned you down!

- Nova

[verden]

The best use of the developers time in this forum is to pay attention to sincere input, such as what Tlok has provided above. As long as the roleplay canard is being used to beat newcomers to death, the number of active players who desert PS after an introductory period will remain constant or increase.

[Korumak]

     Well since the servers being updated with mount quests, I'll toss in the 'old mans' 2 cents worth.
To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, lets just say I'm a casual gamer (computer games) and was an avid AD&D 2eder back when 2nd was the current edition.  I stayed away from the 'Pay to Play MMORPG, cause I couldn't/didn't like the concept.  You pay 60$ for a game and they want what a month??? that concept.
     I had toyed with MUD's cause a friend of mine who was into role playing, was into that, and I figured I could go old school.  The first evening was kill rat, kill rat, kill rat, then go get healed, repeat about 1,000 times... (8hrs later) oh your level 2...  Everyone seeming on the board was like level 200+
     It makes you wonder, just how long do these people play these games, how many hours, just to hang out on the same level as the experienced folks.... years.  And the funny thing is, they where complaining that "Monsters aren't tough enough".  There I was spending 8 hours killing rats just to make level two, and thats with out having to "Repair" any weapons or armor.
     This is the main factor mud's have a small following.  After you put in years into it... well old habbits.  The concept of hey 'spend the day RPing" ends up 'No ones on so lets kill something'.
     Granted, I don't expect to become "Conan the indestructible warrior" in an hour or a week.  But then I dont want to have to play a game for a year at 8 hours a day, just to get up there to hang out with the 'old timers' and adventure with them.
     Like I said, I'm a casual gamer, that just discovered Planeshift, and I like it despite the bugs.  There are a lot of really good things here.
     Planeshift seems to suffer from the MUD problem.  I seem to spend half the time trying to figure out "HOW" do do something than actually doing it.  The "You fist should do this... then this... then this." isn't very easy to grasp for the new comer.  Thankfully the folks in the gossip have been very helpful getting me started.  I now know where to mine for gold, how to cash it in, then go and train my "Music instrument" and practice practice.... repeat for the past 3 days, hey I got level 13.... out of who knows how many.  Having to play a song about 10 times to make a level.  And thats with about a total of 18 hrs of game play. (roughly)  Let alone editing music, then play it to check the notes... hehe good luck there. ( yeah i know [Just a suggestion, when it edit mode, play the notes correctly at least to the player, so if we transpose some 'public domain/traditional' music we can hear it to double check the work])
     Also, yes i can agree, the leveling system needs to be quicker. Perhaps a simple cap say 100, and measure it out from there, or some kind of bell curve.  Like if it was old D&D, 1-7 goes really quick. 8-12 twice as long, 13-15 three times as long and 16-18 10 times as long.  At least show the range of numbers so we know what the top level is. (lables... need lables.  60 [icon] 300 .... Im still not sure whats the price, whats the quality.
     As far as "Joining a guild" sounds all well and good, till you remember some important real life facts, not all of us are on the same schedule, interests very a lot, some stay for a short wile others long, let alone time zones etc.  Guilds should not be a necessity, but a 'bonus'. (my two cents)  not all of us are going to devote endless hours to it, or bother with joining a guild.
     As far as the repair goes... yeah I can agree with that.  I blew through my swords in 8 hours IRL, only to find no npc to 'fix' them, and the weapons kit... oh wait "Your skill isnt good enough for that" then I find out its only 75%?  The advice (which i got from the gossip channel) go train weapons repair, get a pair of clubs, go down and beat up some rats, oh and get some weapons repair kits.  kill rat... kill rat... kill ratt.. repair.  Don't pick on the diseased ones there tougher than the healthy ones (WTF with that).  Then I come up side to see a magical and combat fireworks display (which was pretty cool) then oh why don't i try music...  So now I got chores to do before I can play a simple melody with out error.  Then I'll go back to club rat, club rat club rat.  With hope by next year i can kill something other than a rat and a chicken wanna be.
     I don't mean to sound gruff, that isn't my intention, but to grab a 'casual gamers' attention, they/we need a lot of hand holding.  And to be able to do something other than kill rat for months.  So he's got a very valid point there.
     The REALLY big suggestion I have, instead of "Adding tons of more quests," cap some levels, rework the older ones, and do some changes so that it accommodates, both the casual player, and the die hard been here for years.

So my list of Suggestions

• on quests, check to see if the character is capable of completing it. (has the right level in skills etc) *
• Curve the "Training" so at the beginning you "Level up" to something decent that at least you can "RP a warrior who has seen some experience" as apposed to 'Kormak the rat slayer'  then make it tougher for those at the higher end to make their levels.  Thus allowing new folks time to catch up to them to at least adventure.
• Fix sitting **
• Make the road to Oja (road 1) a bit more ovbious ***
• Get a spokesperson NPC rework to be the default 'go to' for us new folks.****
• And I need a phez.... ok, well at least some kind of hat. I found found leather armor (no hat ovb), found chain (no chain helms or any other kind) but where the heck do you find hats/Helms?

* I ran the "Battle Token" quest, ok back and forth... oh wait you need a Gold Ingot... one wasn't offered nor a clue where I was supposed to find one, then I remembered the tutorial, Iron ore into the Iron Ingot... ok.  Managed to discover the 'gold field' picked up some gold ore.  Went to the furnace... poof.  Had to ask help of another player totaly to melt it into an ingot (cause apperently I wasnt skilled enough) to do so.  The NPC should have either supplied me with a gold nuget, or money to pay for the work to be done not just handed me a note with directions on what to make, or clued me in where to get one for him.  So there should be some kind of basic 'check' for each quest.  Does the character have the supplies or skills, or at least a clue to where to go and what to do next.  Thats just an example.  Ask around doesn't help at all with a bucket load of NPC's and 'I don't know about that'  high frustration factor.  The checks are OOC for game play, not in character.  I found other 'quests' like that.  Not to mention the music trainer over in Gug, says he can train me to play, and is willing, but its not a pop up option but he can sell me a lute...
** Fix sitting
Its a nag bit yes.  Hopefully this is getting worked on, but in my opinion, been one of the bigger priorities when the maps where first made.  something like.  If chair, sit in chair. a 'default size' chair would do it.  If no chair assume the normal sit position.  Seeing people spralled out over a table and chairs... Way odd.  This way you get to show your stuff for the RPers who just want to sit with a low level character and RP.
*** Road to Oja
The sign posts was a good idea, at least it points in the cardinal direction of where I need to be.  The road to Gug, good. I know where i want to go, and its obvious which way.  There is a realism, yes but theres also game-play/frustration.  Since so many of the 'beginning quests' are to the road to Oja, and we don't have mounts, and its going to be a long time before we get one. (I have yet to figure out how to 'travel' there via merchant, as its not obvious in the least bit. (see **** for a possible solution))  But perhaps a say sold color path from the spire to Hydlaa for us newbies hence a reference that wont 'vanish'.  I know theres lots to do on oja 1.  but starting players leave the city with a "I need to go to this place called Oja-whatever" then you go out a ways and the road well vanishes.  Seems like 99% of the quests I found so far have me running back and forth between oja and Hydlaa.  It took me about 8 trips before I worked out a solution to the 'not get turned around', and I'm RUNNING the whole way so its finger holding time, or "R" and corse correct.  and this is a long way, and if you get lost or turned around, it gets a lot longer.  I'm talking for game play purposes, not the "Well they wouldnt know" factors.
**** A spokes person NPC
This is a "Spokes person" for either the city, or the game. Newbies can go to this guy, and get help or advice when starting the game.  Advice like "So you want to be an adventurer eh?  What field do you want?" say 'A fighter', then "You need to get a pair of clubs, train your 'weapons repair' with (npc) get some weapons repair kits, and start off with the rats/chickens but stay away from the diseased ones.  Now your weapons will get dull, and the quality will go down quickly but that repair skill will bring it up to 75%.  Now if you need money, theres a few options... sub menu"
This way us Newbies who need the hand hold, don't have to go to the older guys to ask the basics.  Make this guy/girl BLATANTLY obvious.  IE point to him several times in the tutorial.  This way we get the, 'Do this for money' 'Do this to train' 'do this to level up' 'do this to fix your gear or buy new'
Its with this guy you can put the 'hey that storage feature!, it works great, doesn't cost a k, see X in hydlaa, see X in Oja etc.
And put him some place where there can be a crowd around him, a kind of reference for the casual player who may fire it up once a week or a month.

Thats my take after playing for a week.  Its not a complaint etc.  Kind of a take from it what you will leave the rest, and I do intend to stick around.  I've already told a few friends and one of them used to work at dream works doing CG animation.  Hopefully i can convince him to lend his skills to the project.  I'm also pretty good at making manuals to boot, I just have to fully understand the subject matter first (and its got to be stable).
PS, I love the feline race, especially the tail idol animation.   If I can figure out how to skin the Gui, then... well they need a revamped skin.  So many things so little time.

[Caraick]

      Don't pick on the diseased ones there tougher than the healthy ones (WTF with that).   

So someone else has noticed this interesting paradox 
You amuse me. Come poke me in-game sometime.

[bilbous]

They have extra eyes so they can avoid damage better. They should be call mutant rants, really, but a mutation can be considered a genetic disease, no?

[Rigwyn]

I also bought a longsword, and spent most of my tria thinking it would be easy to make that much back (i mean, if the tutorial gave me 4200 or so...).

Boy was I wrong.

LOL!!!  Ding! You win the prize!

This really sucks when you are brand spanking new. You see that initial chunk of change vanish, your health drops to near-dead. Mana is taped and you can't heal yourself because you are out of potions. You wonder why the rat is now kicking your ass. ( not realizing that you wore your sword and armor to 1/50 and that you have not been training your skills or stats ) You need tria, but can't seem to earn more than you need to spend. You don't want to ask that dude in plate armor with the horned helmet next to you for help or tips because he'll probably call you a stupid noob... so you think...

Now, I'm going to hop on the opposite side of the fence for a change.

When you are in this sort of dire predicament, and another player comes along and heals your character, gives you a new short sword and a few tips on how to advance.... or they pay you big money to spy on someone - or set them up for a mugging, you suddenly start to bond with that player. ( Notice, I haven't begun to harp about role playing yet ). There is a huge opportunity for mildly-experienced and veteran players to help and facilitate this bonding at this point of the game. If the new player could do everything on his own steam ( as with a single player rpg ) then he/she/it would never need to reach out and connect. If that player never bonds with the other players, he/she/it might as well not exist.... after all, its a Multiplayer game - not a single player game.

As much as I would like to see the game made easier for the noob-in-training, I think there is some value in needing the help of other players.

[Karlyle]

Hey Rigwyn, not sure if you are just trying to promote RPing or trying to get some spies to help you out   
Either way, I still agree with you. Albiet, there are some more experienced players that might not give noobs the time of day, but I think most would be and will be more then willing to help them out.

[novacadian]

As much as I would like to see the game made easier for the noob-in-training, I think there is some value in needing the help of other players.

Well put! That observation seems to go to the heart of most of these type of threads.

- Nova

[Rigwyn]

Hey Rigwyn, not sure if you are just trying to promote RPing or trying to get some spies to help you out   
Either way, I still agree with you. Albiet, there are some more experienced players that might not give noobs the time of day, but I think most would be and will be more then willing to help them out.

Actually, I've recently started trying to get new players involved in such a way.  Something as simple as spying, delivering a message or item, or luring someone to a certain spot is something anyone can do and it will give you a feel for how well that player role plays and where they might need help while providing them with needed resources and a chance to get their feet wet with RP. In my case, the fact that the new player is unknown can be an asset. Those who RP differently might have other reasons to be equally interested in new players.

Ooops... derailed the topic a bit there...

[bilbous]

How do you distinguish between a new player and someone posing as a new player? I do not mind helping new players at all but I get rather annoyed at veterans wasting my time.