Poll

Do you agree with the current marriage system, or would you rather have it changed?

Yes. PlaneShift is set on medieval times, and back then, people weren't lenient with homosexuals.
10 (32.3%)
Yes, but I wouldn't mind if it changed. My beliefs shouldn't dictate how others act.
2 (6.5%)
No, it's discriminative towards the players and it needs to be changed.
14 (45.2%)
Don't know, don't care.
5 (16.1%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"  (Read 1591 times)

MishkaL1138

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Is PlaneShift homophobic?

Since the marriage system was implemented, PlaneShift allowed for the marriage between characters, with only one limitation: it mustn't be between characters of the same gender. Let's look at the reasoning behind this limitation:

  • PlaneShift is set in the Middle Age: In real life Middle Age, homosexuality was not only forbidden, but heavily punished. "Sodomites" would be impaled on stakes, or burnt at pyres, or presumed they were possessed by demons, and lesbians would be accused of dealing with the devil.
  • The Octarchy doesn't allow for same sex marriage: Lord Iragdun Salikarios, as well as the rest of the Octarchs (presumedly), believe in the sanctity of marriage through the union of man and woman.
  • A homosexual couple can't procreate: The incompatibility of same gender relationships won't allow for them to procreate, that is, produce offspring (despite Kran abbility of "gemming").
Is this the environment in which we want to play?

The current playerbase is smart enough to know there's something amiss in here. We have been roleplaying this kind of unions for many years. I, myself, have a gay character. His name is Kharrt, he's a Kore Enkidukai, and he was deeply in love with his boyfriend Dhury, even married him in front of Xiosia.

I don't think the gods look down on same gender couples, either. After all, Talad (the god, that is) still loves Laanx dearly. I'm not sure what kind of love is it, or if it was a bromance at first, or they were actual lovers. It's complicated. The point is, there's not a hard-headed faction in game that will discriminate against the lesbian/gay/bisexual collective, at least in the lore.

Now, let's see why the aforementioned reasonings can't work in PlaneShift:

  • PlaneShift is set in the Middle Age: RL Middle Ages were controlled heavily by the Catholic Church. We're talking about a time when the rate of illiteracy was about the 90%. The only "smart" ones were the monks, priests, and the like. PlaneShift is not like that. There's not a religion like christianism was a thousand of years ago, and our characters aren't illiterate either. We're living in an illustrated setting, albeit medieval in the looks.
  • The Octarchy doesn't allow for same sex marriage: This is a poor, cheap, hurried excuse for not wanting to implement same gender marriages mechanically. I have read the lore, and nowhere have I seen that homosexuals were prosecuted for their preferences.
  • A homosexual couple can't procreate: This is convenient. Yliakum is a secluded space. A hollow stalactite, with limited resources and, all around, not big enough town for the two of us, cowboy. Homosexual couple not only are unable to have offspring, thus can't contribute to crowding the stalactite. But if it's about creating a family, they can have a healthy one by adoption, as healthy as a traditional one.

Please, don't turn PlaneShift into a Real Life lookalike. We play this game to have fun and do the things we're not able to do in real life. That's what roleplaying is for, and that's the attractive of this game.

Please, leave your vote.

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Donari Tyndale

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 09:16:02 am »
I think PS is bending the concept of sex anyway. Laanx, who had a sex change, Kran, who are genderless. Marriage between species (Is a Kran marrying some other race for love gay marriage? :D) With such a lenient concept of gender, I find it hard to believe gay marriage wouldn't be IC anyway.

bilbous

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 09:26:42 am »
You forgot to allow an option for a kran to marry kraself. You can call me Mr. & Mrs. Bilbous from now on. Really the way you people go on with your adult themed melodramas completely mystifies me. You do understand, now, I am not referring to any specific gender orientation when I said you people. If you want more of that kind of thing in your life step away from your keyboard and go out and meet new people, you may need to lower your expectations if you are not having the success you think you deserve.

Why should there be any marriage functionality in Yliakum? You can role play it if you want and it just causes trouble for the gms to deal with when your spouse becomes inactive. I say don't accommodate, get rid of it altogether. Where is the option for that in your poll?

BoevenF

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 09:55:17 am »
I don't think Planeshift is homophobic, some people is.
About the reasoning behind the mechanics of marriage you cited. You did it all by yourself, or is it stated somewhere, or someone in dev department or elsewhere explicitly pointed out those reasons?
I'd vote on forget entirely marriage mechanics, for what is worth.

Donari Tyndale

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 09:58:16 am »
You are forgetting that the most of the 13-18 yrs of age audience actually likes the marriage mechanism.

MishkaL1138

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 10:19:27 am »
I think PS is bending the concept of sex anyway. Laanx, who had a sex change, Kran, who are genderless. Marriage between species (Is a Kran marrying some other race for love gay marriage? :D) With such a lenient concept of gender, I find it hard to believe gay marriage wouldn't be IC anyway.

For Xiosia's love, Gurgus has the hots for Tyrus...

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Eonwind

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 11:55:26 am »
  • PlaneShift is set in the Middle Age: In real life Middle Age, homosexuality was not only forbidden, but heavily punished. "Sodomites" would be impaled on stakes, or burnt at pyres, or presumed they were possessed by demons, and lesbians would be accused of dealing with the devil.

blaming the church for not allowing homosexual marriage during medieval time is inaccurate at best. Even in ancient times were being homosexual or bisexual was fashion and common practice between the society high up, same sex marriage was never ever thought of.

  • The Octarchy doesn't allow for same sex marriage: This is a poor, cheap, hurried excuse for not wanting to implement same gender marriages mechanically. I have read the lore, and nowhere have I seen that homosexuals were prosecuted for their preferences.

You've never read of any persecution of homosexuals because there has never been one, and something like that will never happen as well. The Octarchy would not approve any persecution, however it doesn't automatically mean that same sex marriage can be officially sanctioned. However my personal opinion is players are free to play whatever they want, including same sex marriage, until it's not exceeding the limit of decency (especially in public channels).

  • A homosexual couple can't procreate: The incompatibility of same gender relationships won't allow for them to procreate, that is, produce offspring (despite Kran abbility of "gemming").

The nature has its limits and so that's why in ancient times, even when being homo or bisex was fashion, marriage was never ever socially approved.
In a world where less than 50% of children was able to reach adult age the society needed a form of family which was able to produce enough children to keep the birth-death rate count balanced, and also never forget the frequent plague and illness which were quite frequent and could easily decimate the population.
About adoption it was not a common practice and was only recurred at in extreme cases when there was the need of an offspring to avoid a family name extinction.
Also what about threesome rights? Yes why limit ourselves only to 2 core family members instead of 3 of mixed genders?

Jawir

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 01:49:48 pm »
The first thing first that comes to my mind is: the vast majority of RPers have ignored game mechanics when it suited them and now they care to see a little label reporting to whom they are married with?!?
Anyway, you should consider some things imho:
1) The Yliakum isn't ruled by a democracy, so if the rule is the Octarch doesn't allow gay marriages you have to accept it or break the rule at your own risk;
2) Since I imagine that to  be married to someone there is the involvement of some burocracy and thus the Octarch, if the Octarch doesn't allow you to marry someone you are not officially registered as married-> thus you can't have that little label saying you are married with your beloved;
3) Since just the gay marriage isn't allowed you can continue to meet your beloved whenever you want: is that little label (OOCly) or an official acknowledgment (ICly) that really matters?!?
4) Sometime I think some people forget it: it's a game!  :P
5) Bilbous stole some of my thoughts! :P

Caraick

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 01:54:06 pm »
Eonwind makes a lot of very valid points here.  I'll address a couple things in particular, but I want to make my main point clear here:  We are not playing in a medieval fantasy setting.  Our characters are.  We are pulling on the puppet strings of someone in an entirely different reality, without any of the social constructs, morality, politics, or religions of our own reality.  We can liken elements of Planeshift's setting to our own Middle Ages, but it is merely a comparison.  You cannot draw direct analogies to something that is fictitious.

Prefacing with that, let me get into the specifics.


  • A homosexual couple can't procreate: The incompatibility of same gender relationships won't allow for them to procreate, that is, produce offspring (despite Kran abbility of "gemming").

The nature has its limits and so that's why in ancient times, even when being homo or bisex was fashion, marriage was never ever socially approved.
In a world where less than 50% of children was able to reach adult age the society needed a form of family which was able to produce enough children to keep the birth-death rate count balanced, and also never forget the frequent plague and illness which were quite frequent and could easily decimate the population.
About adoption it was not a common practice and was only recurred at in extreme cases when there was the need of an offspring to avoid a family name extinction.
Also what about threesome rights? Yes why limit ourselves only to 2 core family members instead of 3 of mixed genders?

Eonwind is exactly right.  Homosexuality was forbidden across cultures during Earth's Middle Ages.  I'll remind the reader about my first point about drawing comparisons to our own Middle Age, as it's an irrelevant comparison to begin with.  However, that being said, the reason for homosexuality being forbidden was not merely a religious dictate by the Catholic Church, Islamic Law, and other main world religions at the time.  The reason for governments and kingdoms banning homosexuality was a far more practical one: You can't produce offspring in a homosexual relationship.  World population levels at the time were far lower, and at a constant threat of things like the plague, and a relationship that could not produce your family an heir and a successor was entirely useless. 


  • The Octarchy doesn't allow for same sex marriage: This is a poor, cheap, hurried excuse for not wanting to implement same gender marriages mechanically. I have read the lore, and nowhere have I seen that homosexuals were prosecuted for their preferences.

You've never read of any persecution of homosexuals because there has never been one, and something like that will never happen as well. The Octarchy would not approve any persecution, however it doesn't automatically mean that same sex marriage can be officially sanctioned. However my personal opinion is players are free to play whatever they want, including same sex marriage, until it's not exceeding the limit of decency (especially in public channels).



Eonwind is again correct on the matter of settings.  The Octarchy will not recognize same-sex marriages, but that does not mean they're outlawed.  If you, as the player, want to put your character in this situation, be my guest.  Just be mindful of how this relationship would fit into Planeshift's setting.

People in this setting are not like people today.  They are biased, prejudiced, and fundamentally different.  They live under a very different moral and legal system.  Now, if Planeshift's setting had been made so that, for example, the Klyran race had a strong dislike for the Kran race, it would be perfectly normal to see establishments in Amdeneir with "NO KRAN" signs outside.  Now, the current setting explicitly does away with any form of racism, but were the game made like this, a Klyros and Kran who are best friends would draw some funny looks for the rest of the city's population, and they would not be wrong to do so. 

That sort of blatant racial exclusion seems taboo to us today, but this was commonplace in a system like ancient Rome, where left-handed men were publicly and blatantly discriminated against.  The same is true in some modern societies, even.  So again, while the Octarchy's stance against homosexuality may seem taboo to us, in today's setting, be mindful that our characters are not playing in today's setting.  That sort of bias is common, and normal.  Those who think more liberally are eyebrowed at for being strange.
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Cairn

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 03:06:50 pm »
In summation:


IC vs. OOC.

Don't pull your preferences into this game.
I regret to announce that this is the end.

I bid you all a very fond farewell

Caraick

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 04:06:12 pm »
 :thumbup: to that.
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Rigwyn

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2014, 06:05:32 pm »
I have a few tiny things to point out... that's all.

The location of the marry function in the game makes no sense icly.

* If it represents a mutual decision between two characters, then it should not be limited by gender.
* If it represents a legal arrangement that was witnessed by the Octarchy, then it should not be on the right click menu of the character in question. It would be better in that case to attach that option to an NPC or to a quest.

Regardless of the real-life reason for disallowing such unions in-game, it would be good practice to have some written material to show how this decision came to be (or why it always way) ICly. Players should not need to come to the forums for this information.

If you wish to allow such unions in-game as an illegal union, then maybe make a pair of NPCs who are illegally wed.

If you wish to discourage such unions and relationships in-game for ooc/real life reasons, then that should be made clear to players.

Comparing PS to medieval Europe is kind of troublesome in a lot of ways. I know PS has been described this way since before I started here, but perhaps we might want to rethink this analogy as its often used as an excuse for justifying the existence and non-existence of things in PS.


Donari Tyndale

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2014, 06:28:06 pm »
Comparing PS to medieval Europe is kind of troublesome in a lot of ways. I know PS has been described this way since before I started here, but perhaps we might want to rethink this analogy as its often used as an excuse for justifying the existence and non-existence of things in PS.
Wait...Are you saying there are dragons in PS? Because there were no dragons in medieval Europe, but if PS is not medieval Europe, there must be dragons (I'm kind of a champion of double negation.)

Rigwyn

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2014, 07:08:25 pm »

The map says dragons exist. You can't argue with the map!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons


Volki

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Re: Homophobia or "Why can't my character marry the character they love"
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2014, 11:10:47 pm »
This:

The location of the marry function in the game makes no sense icly.

* If it represents a mutual decision between two characters, then it should not be limited by gender.
* If it represents a legal arrangement that was witnessed by the Octarchy, then it should not be on the right click menu of the character in question. It would be better in that case to attach that option to an NPC or to a quest.

If you can marry anyone of the opposite sex on a whim, you should be able to marry anyone. Even a kran. Because it's clearly not a legal matter if you can easily have on-the-spot hippie weddings.

Personally, I think marriage should be removed from the game. It adds nothing. The female's name might change to the male's, but I honestly don't get what the point of that is in the real world or in this game. Especially in this game. It's pointless. Just roleplay your marriage and be happy.
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