Regarding the smithing tables

[Shatterkiss]

Could someone explain why the smithing tables were had their automatic start feature removed?  Forcing people to do each activity one at a time has a tremendous negative effect on armor making and, I suspect, bow making. I've heard that this was done because it was the only way to fix some bugs, but I'm having a hard time thinking of any bugs bad enough to justify removing basic functionality from the smithing tables.

[Eonwind]

Hi Shatterkiss, I confirm the removal of auto-container from the smith table has been done to make it possible to fig bugs that would be otherwise impossible to fix, here a examples:
final step enchantment issue
enchanting armor no info progress bar
Aside that the auto container have proven unfortunately an endless way to "exploit" some crafting processes and therefore we have to substitute them with ordinary container as much as possible.

However we've done a lot of work to enable stack crafting as much as possible, this means you can put an entire stack of products in the smith table (and most of the other crafting containers) and start the transformation at once (instead of spreading every single item over the container slots by means of shift+click).

Another suggestion is to use a shortcut for the /use command to speed up the process.

[Shatterkiss]

If I'm understanding the bug reports correctly, would it not have been easier to change the final step to (for example) require having the kit in one hand, the gem in the other, and to "use" a riveter much like one does when making shields?  That final step shouldn't require any other tool, so it seems like a much easier solution than messing with the smith tables themselves.

Once I can muster the will to log in I'll check the process, but I'm not sure how much stack processing can mitigate the damage. For making chainmail there are quite a few steps that you could do in batches when the tables were still working:

Mold Molten Steel into Steel Wire using Forge with a Wire mold. (Should be the same)

Wind Steel Wire into Steel Coil using Smith Table with a Mandrel. (Can we do this in stacks of 65 now? )

Cut Steel Coil into 15 Dozen Open Steel Rings using Smith Table with a Cutters. (I can't imagine we can turn a stack of 65 coils into 15 stacks of 65 dozen rings.  Only 4 coils into 60 rings then? That's still amazingly slow given the quantity required to make anything.)

Weave 3 (varies) Patterns into Chain Mail Strip using Smith Table. (So we weave a stack of 60/63 into 20/21 strips?)

Weave (varies) Parts into (varies Piece using Smith Table. (Can we do this in stacks of 65 now?)

The final step I agree should be done one at a time simply because it makes sense.

Even if the answer to all of the above question is yes there's the fact that smithing skills are now the only crafting skills without a means of training at a faster rate by working in batches. Alchemy, Baking, Cooking, Herbalism, Metallurgy, and Brewing all have ways to train more quickly by working in batches of 24 or 32.  Smithing really only had the few tasks I mentioned above and you couldn't purchase the needed materials cheaply from an NPC like you can with some of the other crafting skills. Is there going to be any attempt to balance the training rate?

[cdmoreland]

I take it you have not tried enchanting gems.

[Shatterkiss]

I take it you have not tried enchanting gems.

I've enchanted quite a few, actually. In the last month alone I made 3 of each type of enchanted gem in preparation for this update.

[Shatterkiss]

Logged in and tested it myself. Here's what I found:

Mold Molten Steel into Steel Wire using Forge with a Wire mold. (Can be done in stacks, but much better to do in batches.)

Wind Steel Wire into Steel Coil using Smith Table with a Mandrel. (Can be done in stacks, but we lost almost all of the training we'd get.)

Cut Steel Coil into 15 Dozen Open Steel Rings using Smith Table with a Cutters. (Have to do singly. Absolutely horrific.)

Weave 3 (varies) Patterns into Chain Mail Strip using Smith Table. (Must be done one at a time now.)

Weave (varies) Parts into (varies Piece using Smith Table. (Can be done in stacks, but again nearly all training lost.)

So it's a mixed bag. A few steps can now be done in stacks, but you have to choose between getting far less training than you should or taking far longer than it should take.  Other steps are now restricted to one item at a time, meaning that stage will take roughly 24 times longer than before.

I asked this in my last post, but I'll repeat it for those who skip to the last post: Are there any bugs that couldn't be solved more easily and less disruptively that required breaking the smith tables?  Making metal armor just got much worse, and I'm not understanding why it was done.

[seith]

I have to strongly agree with shatterkiss. As I understand it the exploits referred to revolve around brewing as you could just buy the ingredients from an npc and place in an autocontainer right next to them. Armor making does not have this problem as material acquisition is was the bottleneck. You can't 'exploit' smithing skills in the same way as you can't get materials fast enough. It is fine that making chainmail parts rapidly with autocontainers were faster than, say, blademaking as blademaking has paths back to ignots/stock. You don't have the same material acquisition problem.

In other words, personally, I felt the balance was good and hitting armor crafting like this really unjustified. It is horrendous to level now, even with stacks. Many of the steps can't be done with stacks anyway.

[Demagul Riwe]

So this change applies only to smith stuff, right?

[Shatterkiss]

So this change applies only to smith stuff, right?

Apparently only the smith tables. I know brewing can still do things in batches because I did a small batch of barlet the day of the update. Haven't tested the other containers though.

[seith]

I just had another go at making chainmail to see if I could stomach it. It is unbearable. You have to cut coil in to rings one at a time AND weave patterns (after a hideous combine step) one at a time. PLEASE revert this change!

To make a chainmail torso requires 10 steps. I have indicated how long each step takes and how actions are needed to perform that step. Even working it out took a very very long time.

Mine (30 * 20s per ore average = 10 mins) ->  smelt (30 10s batch action) -> wire (30 10s batch action) -> (coil 30 * 15s = 7.5mins) -> closed rings (2 * 15s action) -> combine to make patterns (90?!?! combine actions!) -> weaving (30 x 8s = 4mins) -> combining (4) -> combining (1) -> riveting(1 1m) -> assembline (1 1m)

Taking into account the combining of the rings, which was already horrendous, the last thing chainmail needed was a further 60 actions. With a total time to produce of well over an hour and more than 200 individual actions, many of which were previously achievable in bulk (weaving and chopping coil into rings) it is safe to say armour crafting is no longer fun.

It was already labor intensive, now no one is going to want to do it at all. It is a real shame.

[Roled]

I am really sorry to hear the tables are messed up for player crafters. It makes me wonder if player crafters were consulted before the change was instituted? 
RR