Incommunicado players

[Rigwyn]

What does inter-player trust have to do with playing a character? You make a character, you role play with it, and that's that.  Your character knows nothing about players or things outside of the IC environment, player plans, or whatever. They only know what they see, hear, taste, touch or smell. As a player, you need to determine which things your character was able to perceive, and which things they could not. Obviously, your character is not privy to every single comment that shows up in main, only the things that are reasonable.

If you have trouble separating IC from OOC, then it's probably better to not look for OOC information.

As for trust, it's earned over time. To earn trust, you need to demonstrate that you are trustworthy.  If people decide to trust you, they will. Easy-peasy.

[Eonwind]

I'd like to raise a point in counter to those who are saying that RP should only require IC communication -- how are we, as a community, supposed to build the inter-player trust relationships needed for RP if we don't communicate with each other as players?

You are right: the best inter-players relationships are built when not only IC interactions occur. For some particular RP threads the IC communications between players are not only desirable but also necessary for all players to feel comfortable to play with each others.

[Cairn]

For a year and a half I played a character who had NO OOC contact with anyone. No friends list, no /tells, no gossip.

It was a BLAST. I still was able to RP, in fact the RP I got into was thrilling, because my focus was completely on it. Not how I was going to impress someone, or offend them. The single thing I had in my OOC descriptor box was "If I offend you, /tell me and we'll work it out."

No one once sent me a /tell.

This might not work for everyone. But to say that you NEED OOC to some degree to RP is not true. You really can play ICly and have a great time

[Eonwind]

This might not work for everyone. But to say that you NEED OOC to some degree to RP is not true.

No it's true. You probably did not fall on sensitive topic or failed to understand whether someone got offended (not everyone complain, someone may just decide to quit) or you were simply lucky and always found peoples thinking your RP threads are acceptable. In any case it's the exception which confirm the rule.

[Cairn]

Or I simply enjoyed the game without worrying about who's toes I stepped on, if any.
(I've had gazillions of RP threads that have offended some people to some degree or another.)

Here's the catch:

Much like in real life - If YOU fail to tell anyone that what they are doing is bothering you, you will have found no solution.
In PS if you fail to do so, that is also your prerogative. Let's not wait for others to fix our problems for us.

Why is this? Because people are infinitely different in the smallest ways, or largest. If you spend your whole life worrying about being perfect or pleasing others, you have lost a good portion of who you are instead. Embrace creativity and ideas, and if you find offense, seek to make it right, no?

Those who complain are contented to sit back and watch life pass them by. Those who seek to find a change, however small it is, are the real doers of the world.

 If a character is created, plays within PlaneShift's settings, and abides by PlaneShift's 'PG' ruling? There's no reason to go OOC at all. You can live a perfectly happy IC life. And if you offend anyone, then it's their problem - you're following Talad's rules to par!

[Eonwind]

Or I simply enjoyed the game without worrying about who's toes I stepped on, if any.
(I've had gazillions of RP threads that have offended some people to some degree or another)

well yes ... this confirm the rule  if someone doesn't care to "offend" or about the counterpart feelings there is no point in having OOC convo. But in that case you're not building an inter-player relationship. It's a perfectly legit choice as much as you comply the rules ...

If a character is created, plays within PlaneShift's settings, and abides by PlaneShift's 'PG' ruling? There's no reason to go OOC at all. You can live a perfectly happy IC life. And if you offend anyone, then it's their problem - you're following Talad's rules to par!

This is true but is the theory  and (un)fortunately real world is sometimes less perfect than the rule would like and it sometimes happens to step on the rules despite good intentions.

Still real inter-player (as opposed to inter-PC) relationships can not occur if the players always wear their IC-masks (aka their character) and they never put their mask off

Not everyone is interested in inter-player relationships (and that's perfectly legit) but for who is interested I think Kaerli raised a good point.

[Cairn]

I agree. If you're interested in inter-player relationships, go for it.

But from my experience, Kaerli is interested in meta-gaming. No one else is.
If you want to foster inter player relationships, do so in a way that it is strictly inter player, and NOT OOC/IC interplay beeznees.

And frankly, I can't offer any advice on fostering relationships. That goes beyond gaming and planeshift

[Ascomanni]

building relationships between players can be a rich and rewarding experience, however, the proverbial ice breakers should stem from interactions between characters. Trust and friendship is built from these shared interactions and a mutual admiration from how the characters are portrayed.

A notable exception to this my me the mentor/mentee relationship where some OOC communication may coincide with the early interactions, but to suggest that OOC communication should precede or is even a necessity is incorrect. This methodology is more often than not creepy, unwanted, and detrimental to the process.

[Kaerli_Stronwylle]

Or I simply enjoyed the game without worrying about who's toes I stepped on, if any.
(I've had gazillions of RP threads that have offended some people to some degree or another.)

Here's the catch:

Much like in real life - If YOU fail to tell anyone that what they are doing is bothering you, you will have found no solution.
In PS if you fail to do so, that is also your prerogative. Let's not wait for others to fix our problems for us.

Why is this? Because people are infinitely different in the smallest ways, or largest. If you spend your whole life worrying about being perfect or pleasing others, you have lost a good portion of who you are instead. Embrace creativity and ideas, and if you find offense, seek to make it right, no?

Those who complain are contented to sit back and watch life pass them by. Those who seek to find a change, however small it is, are the real doers of the world.

 If a character is created, plays within PlaneShift's settings, and abides by PlaneShift's 'PG' ruling? There's no reason to go OOC at all. You can live a perfectly happy IC life. And if you offend anyone, then it's their problem - you're following Talad's rules to par!

First off -- most people can intuit when they are starting to offend someone and back off then -- I don't have that intuition nearly as much. 

Second -- my natural approach to the world undermines many of the assumptions that form the basis of the RP community around here -- assumptions about what RP is about, how the world should behave, what characters should know about the world they are in, and even how characters should live out their day-to-day lives.

Finally -- my natural approach to the world leads to a RP style that when left unchecked, is pretty inherently offensive to most RPers here, but in a way that isn't obvious enough at first glance to draw complaints; I'm basically one walking player agency problem in a setup like this, which is quite an insidious thing to be.

[Rigwyn]

Second -- my natural approach to the world undermines many of the assumptions that form the basis of the RP community around here -- assumptions about what RP is about, how the world should behave, what characters should know about the world they are in, and even how characters should live out their day-to-day lives.

Finally -- my natural approach to the world leads to a RP style that when left unchecked, is pretty inherently offensive to most RPers here, but in a way that isn't obvious enough at first glance to draw complaints; I'm basically one walking player agency problem in a setup like this, which is quite an insidious thing to be.

Imagine for a moment that I joined a baseball team and upon receiving much grief from fellow players, I argued to no avail, that my way of playing baseball (which involves shooting poisoned darts and hiding the bases behind my back) was based on my "different mind", "unique lifestyle" and "keen ability to think outside of the box".  If they didn't buy it and asked me to change or leave, do you think that it might behoove me to learn how "others" play ball, and start playing it the way they play it?

[Sekto Rispiar]

I find OOC interaction useful for clarifying vagueries and misunderstandings. But it can also be another mode of enjoyment in areas such as gossip, when there are people chatting who are OOCly fun/pleasant/interesting to talk with.

However, the heart and soul of PS is RP IC; in the words of the immortal bard, "the Play's the thing."

[Kaerli_Stronwylle]

Second -- my natural approach to the world undermines many of the assumptions that form the basis of the RP community around here -- assumptions about what RP is about, how the world should behave, what characters should know about the world they are in, and even how characters should live out their day-to-day lives.

Finally -- my natural approach to the world leads to a RP style that when left unchecked, is pretty inherently offensive to most RPers here, but in a way that isn't obvious enough at first glance to draw complaints; I'm basically one walking player agency problem in a setup like this, which is quite an insidious thing to be.

Imagine for a moment that I joined a baseball team and upon receiving much grief from fellow players, I argued to no avail, that my way of playing baseball (which involves shooting poisoned darts and hiding the bases behind my back) was based on my "different mind", "unique lifestyle" and "keen ability to think outside of the box".  If they didn't buy it and asked me to change or leave, do you think that it might behoove me to learn how "others" play ball, and start playing it the way they play it?

I've tried asking how you folks play ball over and over -- and time and time again, folks try to explain RP from the same assumption-base they expect PS players to hold, without stating those assumptions, or recasting their explanation when I indicate I'm not understanding it.

Also: when I do swing away from the conflict-metagame complex, I get penalized for doing so in the form of a lack of support for my efforts.  I have a character who wants to build a bridge over the Irifon, for instance; however, I get the sense that such a RP would receive nil support from the community, if not opposition, hence I basically dare not try at the moment.

Furthermore, I have a challenge for you -- explain to me how a long-term, real-world conflict develops and functions without developing an associated conflict-metagame.

[Rigwyn]

When you say "associated conflict metagame" do you mean that you see the game as something more akin to a chessboard, and the characters more akin to pawns and rooks?  In this scenario, the conflict is between the two players, the challenge is between the two players (as in chess), but the pieces are just there to be pushed by the players? This is PVP.

What many of us are doing is more akin to acting. As players, we don't compete with each other as chess players would. We actually take a more neutral hands-off stance. We let our characters take center stage and make the decisions on their own. We as players are more or less observers or mediators who act on behalf of our characters. If your character was to threaten my character (Rigwyn) and if he was aware of the threat, he would more than likely plot against your character - because that is his nature. If you did the same to my dwarf (Sillamon), he would probably give you a grandfatherly hug and wish you well. Again, these choices stem from the character, not from the player. This is role playing, it's character vs character, not player vs player.

Does that help?

[Garris Shrike]

Tuppence:

Point: "nobody tells me how you all roll"
Riposte: We've told you hundreds, if not thousands of times. Many of us, personally. From the very -moment- you stepped into this game, we've taken the time to gently walk you through what we're doing. Don't use that excuse with me to justify why you keep asking. You've been told. You either like it or you don't, or you're trying to manipulate us somehow, which just makes me even angrier. Perhaps it's ok to just admit that you don't WANT to play the way we do.

Point: "Conflict metagaming"
Riposte: Rigwyn was a dearheart to sum this up for you, but once more, this is something you've been TOLD. We're not doing player versus player in this game, Kaerli. We're acting out little lives here. The conflict that arises up isn't something you can just get in and plan with each other to say there's a winner. There's more than Fifty shades of Gray in this stuff, and you can't dumb it down to "u tell me wut u r goin do so I can make kerli winn0r."

There IS no associated conflict metgame. We aren't hiding it from you. We aren't hiding ANYTHING from you. It really makes me mad to no end that the whole vibe I am getting from this is you are trying to make us the bad guys for excluding YOU!

We have spent almost a literal DECADE telling you these things, trying to help you, and working with you as best as we can! Some of the greatest writers and roleplayers in this game's history have spent HOURS teaching and telling you things! You know this is true, so to keep coming back like a dog to its puke to reiterate these things is insanity! I know you may have a problem, mate, but the end result is this:

You want the truth?

This is obviously NOT the game for you. You're out to win/fight/have virtual sex/force your WILL on everyone, while everyone else is trying to just play.
You want a game where you can have fantastical powers and fight virtual gods? This isn't it.

I promise to you that you will find your peace and happiness elsewhere. There is no shame in moving on and admitting something isn't right for you. Best to not try and make us fit your mold any more, nor have us try and force you into one either.

[Demagul Riwe]

From the start I was planning on staying out of this discussion, but I feel like Garris brings up a good point that I want to discuss.

Point: "nobody tells me how you all roll"
Riposte: We've told you hundreds, if not thousands of times. Many of us, personally. From the very -moment- you stepped into this game, we've taken the time to gently walk you through what we're doing. Don't use that excuse with me to justify why you keep asking. You've been told. You either like it or you don't, or you're trying to manipulate us somehow, which just makes me even angrier. Perhaps it's ok to just admit that you don't WANT to play the way we do.

Kaerli, whenever we try to explain how things work, you just demand to know why things are the way they are and then argue any reasoning that you don't agree with, or as you told me, you're "asking me to defend my point". There's no defense to make except for the fact that this is what the majority of PS wants from the game and it's really annoying for a single player to run around trying to morph PS into their own personal interests. You can attempt to dissect other people's ideas and wishes as much as you want for all those technical, irrelevant details, but no matter what you find chances are you won't be changing anything. In fact you'll probably just cause people to avoid talking to you.