I want my account to be deleted.

[Migg]

Tempted to reply. Migg is not maxed, on purpose. He has fought a couple lesser bosses by himself, successfuly. He picked a skill that allows him to do just that. Trained it slowly and hardly ever visits the arena, mostly does it to test different weapon's effectiveness in a static environment that allows him to make direct comparisons and infer effectiveness statistics.

I wonder why people want to max. So that they can fight other players? The environment? For me this game's appeal is the interaction with other players. Killing a mob became a lot less fun as soon as Migg got above 60 in ranged, now it takes no brains, just brawl. I do it to keep roads clean for others or loot the stuff I need. I can go anywhere and return unmolested. I don't have to hit a dummy for hours on end just to see my stats reach that top level that means there is no longer anything to do when RP is not available. I am in no hurry for the game to end.

That said, what has so drastically changed since the time this game was thriving? Is it AFK training that drove the player base away, or just that the game development has crawled to a halt and no new content exists to tempt old players who have completed every quest and maxed every skill into returning to the game? I wonder.

[Volki]

I wonder why people want to max.

To roleplay characters that actually contribute to their world and can be depended upon... If you want to roleplay twink, indigent, or disabled characters, go ahead. But most people don't play fantasy roleplaying games so they can play "your average everyday guy" character.

Being maxed is way more fun than being a low level. Player-skill becomes relevant. You can be practically a superhero. Considering you haven't reached that point, I'm not sure why you're poo-pooing it.

[Geoni]

I may be missing the point here, not a power leveler by far, so please bear with me if I get things wrong. Not going to go personal to the level of quoting and replying to things that struck me as odd, I will try to address what seems to be the gist of what I got by skimming through this thread, which got too long too fast, and too bitter for me to read in full right now.

I was wondering, if people get bored by watching a dummy, why not go train with some mobs instead? Many exist in the arena itself, and the loot will make it worth their while more than the shattered straw of the dummies. Guessing the dummies were put there to help newbies get from level 0 to 1 and from 1 to 2, not power levelers who want to grind from 101 to 102. You want thrill, go fight a boss, that trains you too.

That said, I will make a suggestion to the devs that will help things out, at least IMHO: modify the game so that dummies only allow people to train a skill if it is below level 10. Then let people AFK train at the dummies all they want, knowing they will max at level 10 and will need to move to a mob to advance any further. That will make things more interesting than making the dummies a PvP area, and still allow newbies to train to a level that ensures they don't get instantly killed off by the first kikiri or one-eyed rat they try to fight.

As for Edico's original request, I would say wait it out till your ban ends, and if you are still resolute, log into the account and delete your character, then move on. After all this is only a game, and games are meant to help people have fun. If this one brings you no joy, then look for some other game that suits you better.

You do realize that mobs are repetitive as well and a lot of the stronger bosses require you to have like all your stats maxed and very high weapons/magic skill to face them alone if you don't have friends who are also around to help and of decent levels as well?

The only reason I see dummies having been implemented is because devs know how grinding is, but then team turns around and wants to police a lack of development/filler.

[Edico]

I deleted my character. It seems there is no "account deletion". I changed the password of the account with a random password generated by a random password generator.

For me is over.

Bye!

[Mr Tennet]

I believe Venalan was looking at re-writing the ruling so both players and GM's could understand, do remember though this is like no other game, we are player/testers, a carrot on a stick, in fact we are testers, the player audience is not catered for as the project takes priority over everything. Sadly a game with no players, 4 online as I speak, is not a game.

[gonger]

Dear all,

Just a few thoughts on this sad and serious topic.

• A game has rules, and these rules are meant to be followed by everybody. Break the rules, you are punished. That is hardly worth a discussion.
• Whether the rules are good as they are, that is an entirely different point, and therefore should be discussed separately.
  Of course PlaneShift has some problems, of course the rules are not perfect, of course we should discuss them. But separately.
  The GMs are like sport referees. They do not make the rules, but they enforce them. If they do not, they are not doing their job properly.
  A tennis referee decides whether a shot was out of bounds or not, and punishes players by giving points to their opponents. He does not have the right to allow a player to play inside the doubles corridor during a singles match.
  A GM who catches a player cheating must take some action (see point 5).
  Of course GMs should take part in discussions and decisions about rules, but they are not taking those decisions on their own!
  
• PlaneShift is an RPG, not an Idle game (Idle not as an adjective, but as the genre name, where you just set some parameters, and the game then plays by itself). RPG means you act out your role, so it is not really asking too much to check your game screen every five minutes or so.
  If you wish to be AFK, no problem, but don't do AFK training. A player who had been around since 2006 knows this.
• As a side note, I believe that good RP has absolutely nothing to do with your skills. Good RP is achieved by the way you are inside your character, and the RP situation. Whether you are able to slay Maulberlords, or merely rats does not make a difference there. But this, too should be in other threads...
• Finally, we have the standard complaints about GM behaviour. In other threads and in Dev Meetings, the GMs have repeatedly explained how they proceed when they suspect some player of breaking the rules (they contact and warn the players, then do some small action, then some bigger action, and only after repeating this several times, there is a ban). I do not seem to remember punished players describing in similarly detailed ways GM misbehaviour. Quite the opposite, in the case of Talcon (early 2015) I asked him repeatedly to check his logs for GM messages, and he never bothered to give us any information.
  Pretty much the same here, all we know is that Edico felt disrespected. But why, and how? Since Edico left, we are not likely to get an answer.
  Please also remember that GMs are doing their job (which also includes the many events!) in their free time, so the least thing players should do is to be respectful and polite towards them. I do understand that this is a radically new approach for some, but do try it, and you might be surprised by the GMs' reaction.

Enjoy the game (with its rules...).

Gonger

PS This is how you delete an account: Click the Profile link, then under Actions you will find the option Delete this account. I honestly wonder what is so difficult about this.

[Volki]

Lex iniusta non est lex.

[Rigwyn]

Lex iniusta non est lex.

Fancy Pants

[Edico]

I've seen here people that strived so hard to find arguments for something that is not psychologically normal.
I've seen too many stupidities in this thread.
Emaline and Migg look innocent.
But the player "Gonger", that according to his profile is 53 years old, has blown my mind making analogies between the rules of the tennis sport which is an entertaining activity and the rule of starring at the screen which is no activity at all. That the GMs are like referees! Referees of what? Role Playing Game when there is no one to role play with.

I played this game in periods when the server was crashing like 10 times a day and we were waiting hardly each time to be up again. When there were like 170+ players online. When there were 15 players from my guild online. Now you are happy if you see 15 players in the entire game.

If I know the rules? Obviously I know them. But in the past the game was compensating me with other things.
Now I was the only one player online and the only thing that remained from this game was the stupid rule of starring at the screen.

Some people like role playing in this game (I didn't like), others like fighting, others like crafting, ... and so on.
What remained from this game for me is not as much the stats and skills I developed with my character. For me was my guild, "The way of the Hammer", that made me seen other things in people which you can't see them in real life. Even I was probably one of the worse Hammers, my guild definitely changed my character in the game.

This game is not what was in the past and I don't think would be again.

I think this discussion has enough.
I please the moderators to close this thread.

Thank you!

[gonger]

But the player "Gonger", that according to his profile is 53 years old, has blown my mind making analogies between the rules of the tennis sport which is an entertaining activity and the rule of starring at the screen which is no activity at all. That the GMs are like referees! Referees of what? Role Playing Game when there is no one to role play with.

I will make one final attempt, so nobody can say I did not try...
The basic principle of multiplayer games is IMHO "Equal rules for all". If you bend those rules in your favour, it is called cheating. Referees are supposed to prevent cheating. The referees of PlaneShift are called Game Masters.
The analogy is between playing tennis, and playing PlaneShift, and it is perfectly valid. If this blows your mind, well, maybe you are still too angry about all those events. Anger is a bad consultant.

Those who wish to use their own rules because they do not accept the principle "Equal rules for all" have two options:
1) Keep playing multiplayer games. But then they must live with the risk of being punished by the referees.
2) Stop playing multiplayer games. Nobody cares how they twist the rules if they play all alone.

Gonger, aka the Mind Twister

[Volki]

Gonger, Edico hasn't suggested anywhere that the rules should be applied differently to him. He's said the rules are unfair given that the content of the game encourages the actions that the rule disallows.

An unjust law is not a law. That's what this incident boils down to. The developers and GMs are expecting players to follow an unjust rule. The GMs are responsible for this as well because they have plenty of sway with the developers. The developers are not moderators; they shouldn't be the sole influence on what should be moderated.

People naturally do not follow illogical and unfair rules. This rule is that.

[gonger]

Gonger, Edico hasn't suggested anywhere that the rules should be applied differently to him. He's said the rules are unfair given that the content of the game encourages the actions that the rule disallows.

Well, he is also complaining about punishment (what he calls disrespect, without explaining what exactly it is). This implies that he feels treated in an unjust way. But he states that he knows the rules. Break a rule, be punished. So what is this all about, then?

An unjust law is not a law. That's what this incident boils down to. The developers and GMs are expecting players to follow an unjust rule. The GMs are responsible for this as well because they have plenty of sway with the developers. The developers are not moderators; they shouldn't be the sole influence on what should be moderated.

I am talking about this in detail in point 2 of my first post in this thread. Bad rules need to be discussed (by everybody involved!) and changed, and the new rules need to be applied to all players equally.
To my best knowledge, the rule quoted by Emaline ("You may not be AFK (away from keyboard) and leave your character doing an action over and over by itself (e.g. fighting).") has never been applied as harshly as Edico claims. See point 5 of my first post. (Why do I have to repeat all this???) Nobody is expected to stare at the screen all the time. They are expected to react every now and then.
This rule is far from being perfect. For example, after how many minutes is a player considered AFK? Two, five, ten? This should be stated precisely.
Nobody ever said that PlaneShift is a perfect game... and neither are the people in and around PlaneShift.

People naturally do not follow illogical and unfair rules. This rule is that.

Fine. But is it not better if at the same time people try to improve things? For example, start a discussion at a Dev Meeting.
PlaneShift is constantly evolving and probably always will be.
This means a chance for everybody to contribute to improve it.
Merely complaining about unfair behaviour will not achieve this.

Good night now,
Gonger

[Volki]

Gonger, Edico hasn't suggested anywhere that the rules should be applied differently to him. He's said the rules are unfair given that the content of the game encourages the actions that the rule disallows.

This implies that he feels treated in an unjust way. But he states that he knows the rules. Break a rule, be punished.

Did you miss the part where I said that "an unjust law is not a law"? You're blessed if you've never been punished for absurd rules in your entire lifetime. Just because you know you're going to be punished for breaking an absurd rule doesn't mean you deserved punishment. Being aware of a rule doesn't mean you agree to follow it. The defiance and ignoring of absurd/unjust rules/laws has been called "civil disobedience." If people are having to do that in a video game, you've really screwed up.

An unjust law is not a law. That's what this incident boils down to. The developers and GMs are expecting players to follow an unjust rule. The GMs are responsible for this as well because they have plenty of sway with the developers. The developers are not moderators; they shouldn't be the sole influence on what should be moderated.

I am talking about this in detail in point 2 of my first post in this thread. Bad rules need to be discussed (by everybody involved!) and changed, and the new rules need to be applied to all players equally.
To my best knowledge, the rule quoted by Emaline ("You may not be AFK (away from keyboard) and leave your character doing an action over and over by itself (e.g. fighting).") has never been applied as harshly as Edico claims.

Apparently he's saying it has. It's probably happened to others. Maybe noobs. I know other players who have been annoyed by it, though I can't recall if they were kicked (but that's down to my memory). For all I know, the noobs I've been trying to get to stay in the game were kicked or banned for "AFK training" and refused to return. If I was a noob and was told I couldn't train while AFK when the game clearly demanded it, I would quit immediately.

Nobody is expected to stare at the screen all the time. They are expected to react every now and then.

Which is only slightly less absurd? Why should you need to react if the training dummy or whatever is going to die eventually? The only reason GMs should need to check is for botting. And upon finding out someone is just AFK and training normally, they should do nothing.

This rule is far from being perfect. For example, after how many minutes is a player considered AFK? Two, five, ten? This should be stated precisely.

Yes. Alternatively, let people go AFK while training in a game that encourages it and stop punishing people for doing what they're naturally led to do.

People naturally do not follow illogical and unfair rules. This rule is that.

Fine. But is it not better if at the same time people try to improve things? For example, start a discussion at a Dev Meeting.

How many times does this topic need to be brought up before the people defending the rules/grind admit that it's been criticized? How much do we need to complain in-game, on the forum, and in gossip for the developers to take notice? I'd be surprised if it hasn't been brought up at a dev meeting, but that doesn't seem like the appropriate place to bring it up.

This means a chance for everybody to contribute to improve it.
Merely complaining about unfair behaviour will not achieve this.

Because complaining about unfair behavior never improved a community, society, or anything at all, ever. Complaining has only ever left the world in a worse place, where people are imprisoned without due process, low-born women can't own property, and blacks and whites can't live in the same neighborhood.

Where do you think I got the phrase "lex iniusta non est lex?" It sounds so pretentious that I'd only ever use it in a situation where it's extremely relevant. This is that.

To add to that, complaints can be criticism. This is obviously criticism while being a complaint. Nothing improves without criticism. Almost every online game that I've played in the past decade has responded to complaints with improvement. Developers actively seek criticism while making a game (it's called testing). If this many of your players are complaining, you've made a mistake.

Also, I'm not sure that even you believe people shouldn't complain about unfair behavior. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you might want to reconsider that notion.

[Elder]

Loud noises

[gonger]

• Equal rules for all.
• No cheating.
• Discuss and change bad rules.

I cannot express this in a more simple way. If somebody still manages to misunderstand me, so be it.
I give up.