Author Topic: Pickpocketing and roleplaying  (Read 834 times)

Kaityra

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Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« on: May 31, 2008, 08:52:12 am »
Well, we already had a thread about robbery and roleplaying. I have tried to roleplay another rogue "skill", which one could call pickpocketing or just thievery, but so far I just received some bad roleplaying, at least in my eyes.
I always start by looking at the "possible victim" to see if it has any purses or pouches. So I make an emote: "Kaityra watches <XYZ> to see if he/she has any purse or pouch." I always watch when the victim has his/her back to me, so there shouldn't be any chance that the victim notices me watching but other bystanders may notice me being a little bit too curious in a person. But so far I was either ignored or the "victim" all of sudden became aware that it might be stolen from, though it was standing there for minutes without watching his possessions. It is not that I did anything to the "victim" at that moment but somehow...well, let me just say that there is way to be done to actually steal from someone, which will leave you plenty of opportunities to react and/or to save yourself from loosing anything. But even if you loose some trias...
So please, next time when someone is just watching what you obviously wearing just give a statement about it. If you don't want to be stolen from just state that no purses or pouches are visible.

Uldics

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2008, 08:59:31 am »
Is thieving possible???

Kaityra

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2008, 09:06:19 am »
Is thieving possible???

Do I see you quiver? ;D No, it is not possible by any technical means but this is a roleplaying game.

Kaerli

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2008, 07:11:29 am »
Uh, how do you snatch a purse that's RIVETED to someone's weapons-belt?  ;D  (that's how Kaerli's is set up...and it drives would-be purse-snatchers NUTS) :P

Kaityra

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2008, 07:40:10 am »
Uh, how do you snatch a purse that's RIVETED to someone's weapons-belt?  ;D  (that's how Kaerli's is set up...and it drives would-be purse-snatchers NUTS) :P

Well, every purse or pouch has a mechanism to open it or the purse/pouch would be quite useless. It isn't as "easy" as to "just" cut it from the belt or making a hole in it but it can be done. But that was not my point as I would be glad just to receive an appropriate reaction.
But thanks for the tip Kaerli, I think we will now see more people with purses riveted to their belts. I have always thought that this was the usual way a purse was worn in the Dark Ages or any fantasy setting. But I would take it as a sign that this person doesn't want to be stolen from and will comply to his wish.

Kaerli

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2008, 08:09:29 am »
You can try stealing from Kaerli...odds are you won't succeed though...

Kaityra

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2008, 08:21:20 am »
You can try stealing from Kaerli...odds are you won't succeed though...

Well, I figured that one out from the "riveted purse", so you can consider yourself save from me. :P But in the end it is a matter of roleplaying. It is always easy to catch a thief and/or to prevent theft if the thief has to play out the theft, isn't it.

Irgendwer

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2008, 08:37:50 am »
Err, not that I am against rogue characters (in fact I am quite in favour of them), but have you noticed the fundamental flaw in roleplaying pickpocketing?

Roleplaying is about the interaction between persons. Pickpocketing is by definition something that should be done without being noticed (unless of course you insist on being well known for being the worst pickpocket of all times and people automatically tucking away their purses as soon as you enter the tavern). So, how do you expect people should react to "/me looks for things to steal"? If you do that announcement ICly, it means everyone will also ICly know about your intentions (which obviously is not going to help you steal anything). If you do it OOCly ... well, then it is not roleplay by definition.

In other words: There is no logical reaction to your actions, as the whole process does not allow for any (IC) interaction.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 08:39:38 am by Irgendwer »

Kaityra

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2008, 09:33:36 am »
Err, not that I am against rogue characters (in fact I am quite in favour of them), but have you noticed the fundamental flaw in roleplaying pickpocketing?

No, I don't see that flaw that you see. But let's have a look at alternatives first before I come to that:
1. We ban people who try to roleplay rogues and keep this game to the grinding/mining/money making/leveling business that it is now.
2. A technical solution is implemented which
a) leaves the victim no chance
b) is prone to abuse as everyone just can do it.

No, my approach was to follow a fundamental principle of all roleplaying games and that is to play together and to ensure that everybody has fun in doing so. I think my approach leaves the most freedom to everyone. You don't want to be stolen from? Fine, just state that your purse/pouch is neatly tucked away. You are open to the roleplay of rogues? Fine, then why not give the rogue player the chance to continue his play and decide during this play if he is to succed. If you think that the thief player has done a nice job the why not reward him with some trias? If you think that the situation was such that it was impossible to steal then you caught the thief red handed. The only flaw here is that it requires a certain sensitivity for the situation. If a thief gets there are three choices:
1. He finds an excuse and is believed. End of theft and no reward for the thief.
2. He runs away, which could lead to a chase. If not caught on the chase the thief has to lie low for a couple of days. No reward for the thief and he is considered a fugative with a chance to be recognised.
3. He gets arrested. Depending on the sentence this could mean the end of the character or just a couple of days offline.

All three outcomes can lead to interesting follow up roleplaying.

Roleplaying is about the interaction between persons. Pickpocketing is by definition something that should be done without being noticed (unless of course you insist on being well known for being the worst pickpocket of all times and people automatically tucking away their purses as soon as you enter the tavern). So, how do you expect people should react to "/me looks for things to steal"? If you do that announcement ICly, it means everyone will also ICly know about your intentions (which obviously is not going to help you steal anything). If you do it OOCly ... well, then it is not roleplay by definition.

In other words: There is no logical reaction to your actions, as the whole process does not allow for any (IC) interaction.

Well, let's start by examining what the engine offers or better what it does not offer:
1. The engine allows to set a description. Theoretically you could describe in there how your character looks and what he is wearing. How many players use this feature? I would say about 30% but you can correct me if I'm wrong. The drawback of this feature is that you would have to change it once you change your "outfit". So the description can hardly be used to see what others wearing.
2. The engine show what kind of armour you are wearing and what kind of weapons you are holding. Does it show any other item such as purses or pouches? No.

Ergo I have to ask what the victim is wearing. I could do this by using tell but then again if I'm checking up a victim there might be a chance that somebody else notices it that's why I use the "emote". I leave it to you which one is the better solution.
What the character is wearing (and which is visible) is a totally IC-thing. Me watching is a totally IC-thing. It is only the lack of support from the engine that makes this process a little bit awkward.
So up to this point I don't see any problems with mixing IC and OOC. But let's explore the rest of the "procedure".

Let's asume I have met someone that signals that he is open to play out a theft by stating that a purse can be seen hanging on the right side of his belt. So I am getting close to him, making sure that I have his back to me and that he is distracted, e.g. trading with someone. This is still my character doing it so it is IC. I may have a close look at the purse now (Same as above so still IC). He describes that it is an ordinary which is fastened to his belt by the strings. So I decide it would be the easiest to just cut from the belt(still IC). I am slowly drawing my dagger making sure that it does not make any noise. This is still IC. Let's have a short break here to exmine the possible reaction of the victim up to this point. The victim could be that type that gets nervouv as soon someone enters his aura(IC of the victim). In this case the victim would have turned around and the theft would be over at this point. Or the victim has a very good hearing and heard that a drew my dagger from the sheath. It would then have turned around as well to see who was making the noise and I would be in trouble to explain why I did draw a weapon. Both being totally IC.
But let's press "play" again, asuming that the victim did not notice me so far. I carefully try to grab the strings to avoid tucking at them while cutting. I then carefully cut the strings. This is all done IC. Let's stop again and see what the other side could do. Maybe the victim is sensitve to touch. It then could notice me either grabbing the strings or while I cut them or when the weight of the purse is gone all of a sudden. Being caught here would mean serious trouble for the thief. But whatever, everything is still IC.
If the thief has not been caught up to this point the transaction of the booty takes place. Once again the engine offers only little support so we have to use the trade window. The thief usually walks away inconspicuously at this point, or gives the booty to someone else and remains where he is looking as inconspicuous as he can, but everything is still IC.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 10:17:51 am by Kaityra »

Arerano

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2008, 10:10:37 am »
"/me looks for things to steal"? If you do that announcement ICly, it means everyone will also ICly know about your intentions

No. Albeit it's a bad example, it's up to them to decide whether they notice it or not, and if they notice something, how their char will interpret it.

> "Kaityra watches <XYZ> to see if he/she has any purse or pouch."
A good RP is agreed upon from both sides. And if the "thief" spies the "victim" out cleverly, the chance is nearly nothing that the "thief" will be dedected while doing that. Take it as an "offer" that someone wants to RP with you. How this act turns out is not known yet. Who knows, maybe you have some bag hanging on your belt, yet there aren't any trias in it. Is the bag, or maybe several - if any - hanging on the side, or more on the front.. or maybe even near the back? Maybe it contains some crystals instead, glyphs or something entirely different.

You can try stealing from Kaerli...odds are you won't succeed though...
Sounds like "No matter how clever you do it.." ..and even if it doesn't ought to sound so, it at least sounds discouraging. How can you know in advance how clever - or maybe clumsy a thief is?

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2008, 10:45:59 am »
I don't think we ban people for playing rogues....

I can even recall several events where rogue characters were welcomed.

I always feel for the people who wish to play unsavory types, the "good" people don't seem to accept loss.

neko kyouran

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2008, 11:02:47 am »
I always feel for the people who wish to play unsavory types, the "good" people don't seem to accept loss.

not their fault really.  society teaches people from the moment they are born that "good will always triumph over evil"

take into account that also the majority of people "go with the flow" and never "think outside the box", they will just assume that since they are playing a "good" character, that "baddies" will never win, simply becuase they are "good" and "baddies" are "bad".

this post aslo needs more quotes, so heres some more. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Zan

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2008, 11:22:52 am »
I disagree, the baddies want to win just as much. It's simply human nature to want to survive as well as possible. If nothing forces you to yield, not many will yield.
Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

Grayne Dholm, Follower of Dakkru

neko kyouran

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2008, 11:33:09 am »
I was referring towards those players that feel they should win just becuase they are "good" and not actually doing anything to justify that they should come out the victor over the "baddies".

EDIT:

Example:
player 1:  "i'm a hero on a quest to save the world as I walk down this road in the middle of the open country side with no one around me for miles!"
player 2, who steps out from a bush they were waiting behind for someone to walk by and sticks their shiv to the back of the passerby:  "i'm a robber, give me your tria"
player 1: "nope, you can't make me becuase I'm a hero and they never lose."
player 2: "but i have a shiv to your back, and we're the only two people here for miles, and i could stick my shiv in you and just take your tria without anyone finding out."
player 1: "nope, hero.  can't happen becuase i'm wearing my full armor set right now."
player 2: "so let me get this straight.  you're walking miles and miles.... alone... in full armor....becuase, you know, armor isn't heavy or anything, and you wouldn't possibly get tried and hot and sewaty and have to take it off at some  moments after you started your trek."
player 1; "yep, sounds about right.  i am after all, a hero."
player 2: "whatever."
« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 11:43:16 am by neko kyouran »

Prolix

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Re: Pickpocketing and roleplaying
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2008, 11:35:44 am »
No neko that is just what the wolves tell the sheep ;)