Poll

Do you think it should be easier to max out one's character?

Yes.
28 (27.2%)
No.
49 (47.6%)
Snorks.
26 (25.2%)

Total Members Voted: 97

Author Topic: Less Grind?  (Read 2904 times)

Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2009, 12:30:13 pm »
No.

Levelling should not be easy, but, I will agree with many who have posted here - it needs to be more fun.  At present 'grinding' is such a 'drag' and not really fun, and RPing round it is not easy and sometimes to get a stat you need for your character you have to do it in such an out of character way! 

I personally would like to see a 'turn based' drag and drop of skills whether they be combat or agility etc to set up your chosen moves - around which you can role play...  of course that would give players chance to enhance their levelling with fun RP and if against other Player characters, enable the more skilled to be bettered by those who chose skills in a more dynamic way -  but hey - what do I know? it is possibly too complex to set up something like that.
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perlyboy

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2009, 01:13:19 pm »
[maxing one's char shouldn't be made easier

there is a good balance between levelling and getting to know the realm of Yliakum

if maxing would be made easier, people would get bored sooner and you'll loose players

coming from a point of view from someone with over 15 years of RPG experience]

Xanthan

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2009, 09:04:44 pm »
Zanzibar pointed out some of the drawbacks of using quests to facilitate RP-based leveling.  These are valid points.  (Though no worse than the problems of the current leveling system, IMHO).  That is why I suggested multi-player quests (in the other previous discussion).  A simple version could likely be done with the current quest mechanics.  This would be harder to ignore RP on, since you have to interact with others.

I don't like the idea of requiring players to complete quests in order to open up trainers.  You can solve quests without caring about the settings or interacting with other players.  Also, the players who care about leveling so much will just use spoilers.  For players who don't use spoilers, sometimes quest solutions are so unexpected (or they need to be worded so exactly) that they're really difficult to solve or can't be solved at all by certain players without help.

If quests are to be used for leveling, it's important for the reward to be proportionate to the level, since most the rewards now (esp xp) are tiny compared to what you need for going from (e.g.) level 149 to 150 in a magic way.  Making a minimum level a requirement to get the quest would probably be necessary, or perhaps the reward could be an increase in level rather than tria/xp.

I'm encouraged by this discussion, and the fact that Xillix started it.  This implies to me that we might see some positive change here, and that would be something that would move PlaneShift way ahead of the MMORPG pack.

LigH

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2009, 02:01:20 am »
Does anyone remember Unterthemoon's ideas about a different progression system? - Is there anything included you could use?

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Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2009, 02:23:02 am »
which one there has to be 100 versions, all shot down by zanzibar for some reason or another . . .?

zanzibar

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2009, 04:18:57 am »
Does anyone remember Unterthemoon's ideas about a different progression system? - Is there anything included you could use?
Can you find a link to it?  I remember Underthemoon proposing that we eliminate mental stats, but I don't recall an alternate progression system.

which one there has to be 100 versions, all shot down by zanzibar for some reason or another . . .?
Huh?  I'm critical of the current system, but a lot of people are, including a lot of developers.  In fact I don't think anyone is entirely happy with the current progression system.


Edit:  There's one thread I was able to find:  http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=26644.0

While I pointed out where I perceived flaws, I no more "shot it down" than did Seytra, Neko, bilbous, Xordan, and many others who posted in that thread to point out flaws or suggest improvements.  To pick on me is rather unwarranted.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 05:08:32 am by zanzibar »
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Bragan

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2009, 01:15:08 pm »
I agree that the amount of effort currently required is fine, and appropriate. I do think that there needs to be some balancing, but I think that making the skills actually sustainable (at all levels of progression) would go a long way towards making grinding less boring. Talking about crafting, for instance, there supply is much greater than demand, especially for novice crafters who want to improve, and must therefore create large amounts of common/standard quality weapons before they are able to consistently produce superior/exceptional/finest quality weapons. It also requires a large amount of raw material, which for the moment many players need to mine themselves because they cannot afford to pay other people to mine it for them. This problem is compounded by the fact that many (professional) miners prefer to mine platinum because they make much more from it than (even though it has no current use in the world) than mining iron and coal. Crafting also produces very few PPs compared to the amount needed to advance a level. Thus we see that to train crafting skills, is not cost-effective in terms of monetary cost and experience, which means that many will have to hunt mobs to get PPs, and maybe tria as well if they are strong enough to challenge loot-producing monsters. If not, they have to grind plat to pay for their training.

Currently, I believe that the only family of skills that produce enough PPs and tria to sustain continued training is (melee) combat. You are even able to train both your weapons and armors skills at once, and excess PPs can be directed towards training stats, which further improves your combat power. Mining does pay for itself, if you can get the PPs. Crafting could pay for itself, if demand were increased. Further reducing the weapons sold my NPC merchants will probably be a major way of achieving this. Increasing the amount that NPC merchants pay for crafted weapons, and the price of their own weapons, would also be appropriate -- players would be given more reason to buy a crafted weapon if the NPC alternative is comparably priced, and players can sell their crafted weapons to NPCs for something that at least covers the cost of the materials. Especially since the Settings says a sword's cost is equivalent to a year's earnings for a farmer. By that standard, every character in PS is very, very wealthy.

Character stats are the anomaly in that they aren't trained, they are bought. Which leads to the previous comment that You can go from a 47-strength weakling to a 150-strength hero in minutes if you have the tria and PPs -- the latter of which might be difficult since the greatest gains in PPs are found in combat, which you are going to find difficult if you have 47 strength. Here, I would say that more grinding IS needed, absolutely. Maybe apply the skills progression system to stats as well -- you buy some theoretical knowledge, then train it up. Experience in stats would come through doing activities that require that stat. If it lowers your stamina, chances are it should exercise Endurance. This doesn't really make it more difficult, since you can go on doing the same things you do, but it will slow the progression to something that makes much more sense.

I wonder if the calls to eliminate PPs altogether are not unfounded. But instead of replacing it with something complex, why not just eliminate the need for PPs, and leave it at that? You still buy theoretical training, it still costs tria. Afterwards you train it to get experience in that skill as usual. PPs to me are just a hold-over from the leveling paradigm of most RPGs, which PS is trying to shy away from. Remove them and the amount you can train a skill is still dependent on how much that skill is actually used, so I don't see it as losing much of anything, except an artificial cap. If the amount of PPs rendered by an activity were harmonized with the amount needed to train that skill, it would definitely be balanced, but would have the same end effect as removing them anyway.

I deliberately avoided talking about skills you can train but don't have any use yet (ie cooking/baking) since this IS in alpha/beta. RP also goes a long way towards making grinding more enjoyable. This is especially seen in cooking and baking, where although the products are useless as far as (current) game mechanics goes, they do find a use in the RP community. There are also a few people that have decided to mine iron and plat as a service even though it's not the quickest way to get rich in this game.

enderandrew

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2009, 01:52:04 pm »
I think Bragan nailed it.

The system is fine, but it just needs balancing.  I actually like the concept that I can't simply apply experience of PP to Mining that I got from Melee combat (and why is hand-to-hand called Melee in game?).  I must practice Mining to raise Mining.

However, I only get practice points when I'm successful, and at low levels, I'm not successful that often.  I just sat it in a spot and was unsuccessful 35 times before I got one piece of iron ore.  Mining is also very taxing on mental fatigue, where as combat is not.  As a Hammerwielder, my stats are focused primarily on Strength and Endurance, with low mental stats, so I have to constantly stop and take breaks every few mining attempts because I don't have enough mental fatigue.  If I need 100 successful attempts for practice points, and it takes me 35 tries to get one piece of ore, then raising mining is going to be VERY slow.  I have been stuck on Mining of 3 for several days, and I can't seem to get any practice points to raise it to 4.

I think we just need to take some time to crunch the numbers and balance this.  What if I get practice points for each attempt, or if we just lower the number of practice points needed for mining?

I would try to create a base that it should take X number of dedicated game hours to raise a skill from 0 to 200.  And then crunch numbers on raising at each level to get ideas on how to fairly set progression.  You can balance that for another skill now.  If everything is based on X numbers of dedicated hours, then the game should be pretty balanced.  Mind you, you may not have the Mana to constantly cast a spell over and over again in the same way you might be able to camp in a spot and stay in near constant combat, but that is another story.
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Riaan

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2009, 06:48:30 pm »
Ok, ignore me, found IIslysia....  Think I might give it another shot....


« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 08:23:07 pm by Riaan »

Garile

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2009, 10:15:04 am »
Further reducing the weapons sold my NPC merchants will probably be a major way of achieving this. Increasing the amount that NPC merchants pay for crafted weapons, and the price of their own weapons, would also be appropriate -- players would be given more reason to buy a crafted weapon if the NPC alternative is comparably priced, and players can sell their crafted weapons to NPCs for something that at least covers the cost of the materials. Especially since the

I really like this idea. Though I do feel that we should add some wooden training weapons to the merchants inventory so the new players have something to use. 400 tria is already killer if you are a weakling trying to earn it through rats. I have created characters who were "magic-based" and had to wait till they were healed again after fighting one rat. Imagine how long it would take if the price of the sword was raised to 4000 and glyphs would also be raised in price.
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Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2009, 01:56:25 pm »
We have had people working on this stuff for quite some time. Some balancing is being worked out for the next release.

PP system will be changed at some point but it isn't a current goal.


Xemmas

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2009, 09:19:12 am »
I voted snorks... cuz is snorks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... :D         \\o//
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Xemmas

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Re: Less Grind?
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2009, 09:20:32 am »
Now.. seriusly... Cannot be any easier regarding stats... maybe other stuff but no stats...
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