Is This Game Too Hard?

[Pakarro]

@Eonwind: Sorry, I messed up. 200 hours to max is a good number also for mining. I re-evaluated my times, and pure digging does it. Sorry for answering too fast, and for answering by feeling instead of numbers. I still had the previous timing in my mind....

Thanks to everybody who cares for the game!

[Sadie]

  What Volki said.
  What Taya said.

 

[Volki]

Honestly, what's the point? - Oh wait that was a rhetoric question; there is none, I do know already.

The point was stated in the original post.

Before I posted this, there was a discussion in the global chat about the difficulty of the game. How hard it is to rank up, gain PP, acquire money, and how bad it is for new players. It was obvious that there were many people who had major issues with the game, but most felt it was pointless to do anything about it, since Talad doesn't seem to listen to the players very often. I also received /tells that some players were afraid to speak up about it because they had been punished in the past for doing so. There are a few players who will protect the state of the game at any cost, and they can be pretty vicious. I'm not sure if they are afraid they will no longer be the elite when casual players can achieve the same levels, or maybe they feel emotionally attached to the game. Either way, those players are discouraging to the majority, and I couldn't care less what a minority of elites has to say.

The other reason I posted this was to get the developers' attention. They always claim that this is a beta/alpha, and they say we are the testers, but they seem to forget that we are also here to make observations and criticisms. I would like to see more people playing the game, and I know that isn't going to happen the way it is now. The game will not survive in its current state.

[Eonwind]

I also received /tells that some players were afraid to speak up about it because they had been punished in the past for doing so.

You can tell them they can speak up their mind as long as they want, we're not going to bash anyone provided the speak politely and respectfully, not just because we're devs but because it's due to anyone no matter what (Volki you're the first in need to remember this ).

The other reason I posted this was to get the developers' attention. They always claim that this is a beta/alpha, and they say we are the testers, but they seem to forget that we are also here to make observations and criticisms. I would like to see more people playing the game, and I know that isn't going to happen the way it is now. The game will not survive in its current state.

before saying silliness like we (the devs) don't accept criticism (as the forget verb seems to imply) you should go back and read previous posts of this topic, read previous posts of other topics then make up your mind, and restart the process again at least a couple of time... you should practice more to process informations

Personally (and the vast majority of current devs) I gladly accept constructive criticism, and whenever it's supported by data, instead of only feelings, all the better!
This does not automatically mean the complain is deemed true, if it is the problem will be dealt with but maybe not in the way you're expecting, but I can promise the complain will be (and was) evaluated and if possible fixed. Also consider the fix must account for: global overview of the game development, free time available to the dev, actual availability of engine/code features (and eventually asking for a new feature and waiting for it to be done) and last but not least what a dev may like to work on, because never forget we're doing it on our free time and it's important for anyone to enjoy what one is working on.

I can make a random list of problems pointed out by players for which a fix was provided, there are a lot more and they're not even sorted for importance:

• bug in the combat system making HA wearers invulnerable
• armor making transformations changed to shorten the game time required to craft them
• aggressive arangmas in the forest outside hydlaa
• no delay between consume food/potions
• ... ... ...

I may end pointing out the game has gained players lately but I prefer to end with a suggestion: bring up this issue to the Dev Q&A meeting every two weeks, Talad is present most of the time and while some of the issues haven't been listened to others have been in the past.

[Volki]

That post was not directed at you or the developers (for the most part). And there have been many developers before you.

If I implied anything, it's that there is an elite class of players who want to remain elite, and that developers tend to forget that testers are meant to point out problems with gameplay, and you're meant to fix the problems. At this point, my issue is with Talad insisting the game should be "realistic" (in other words, no longer a game).

I don't like to imply things. I make my purpose obvious. So, no, I was not implying that the developers do not accept criticism. I was saying, pretty obviously, that they (or Talad) ignore criticism.

Also, this thread doesn't have to be about how I'm a terrible person in need of cognitive therapy. There are plenty of other threads about that.

[Jawir]

I admit I find this thread very interesting, it reminds me this definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusory_attitude.

[...]
Personally (and the vast majority of current devs) I gladly accept constructive criticism, and whenever it's supported by data, instead of only feelings, all the better!
[...]

I totally agree here with Eonwind, the more specific we are giving informations about game's flaws the more probability we have to address devs in the right direction.
This doesn't mean that players that speak about their feelings are wrong, but those feelings need to be the starting point to gather more objective data.

[Bonifarzia]

... And there have been many developers before you.
... I was saying, pretty obviously, that they (or Talad) ignore criticism.

I have the impression that the current devs on the settings and rules side are much more open to suggestions and discussions than it was ever the case during the previous five years or so.

[Rigwyn]

There are a few players who will protect the state of the game at any cost, and they can be pretty vicious. I'm not sure if they are afraid they will no longer be the elite when casual players can achieve the same levels, or maybe they feel emotionally attached to the game. Either way, those players are discouraging to the majority, and I couldn't care less what a minority of elites has to say.

Care to name a few?

Who the hell is this elite class of stuck up players who seem to ignore everyone, defend the game, and god knows what else? I've heard about this for years. It seems to be more of a strawman argument than anything else. If people are being a-holes, then point it out and name them.

As for the progress made in the game, those of us who played before 0.5 will recall going for years without any noticeable changes to the game. Since 0.5 or so, Venalan and Eonwind have been both providing feedback on the forums and making considerable changes. Since I joined in late '07, I don't recall ever seeing this much involvement with the player community.

Yeah, it may be harder in some ways, but at least its improving and for once in the last X years, players are actually heard.

[jowifi]

http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41348.msg465752#msg465752
the difference between theory and Reality is so big...

The message you link to appears to have been a bug related to wearing armor while casting that is (or was) fixed.

A master mage (with his way boosted over 250), and with stats maxed &  boosted (all around 440), can't even kill an onyx dagger or maulbernaut without having to sit down, and wait for mental stamina regeneration... of course you can use load of potions of regeneration, that give you around 200 stamina point (at 300Q) when your spell consume 400... so one  spell = 2 potions... that gonna be very expensive...

I'm not sure what you're doing differently, but I have two mages that are Level 75 in different ways.  One has Int up to 300, but all other mental stats are 160 or lower.  Either can take out an Onyx Dagger without any trouble. 

[tman]

Just for the sake of throwing my two tria in...

There seem to be 2 relatively unrelated issues being addressed/argued here.

1. The game is too hard for new players starting out.

2. The game takes too long for people to max their skills

Problem 2 seems to be what's under debate, and that's fine.  It takes a very long time.  A lot of people think it's too long, others are ok with it.  Personally I don't see the big deal with "maxing" skills anyway.  Unless you're doing PvP (which doesn't seem to be the majority of players) then skills in the 100-150 range seem fine for most purposes.  In my experience you only need ~100 in a crafting skill to make 300q items regularly (correct me if I'm wrong, I've only done a few skills).  Some people have reasons for wanting to max, and I understand that.  Whatever.

Anyway that's besides the point.  However you fall on issue #2, I think it's universally agreed that issue 1 should be addressed.  Current "oldbies" are starting new characters and having a hard time leveling them up, and these are players who already have extensive knowledge about the game world and mechanics.  For someone just starting out, who doesn't know where anything is or how to do anything, it's even more frustrating.  I think this is the problem that should be focused on first.  If we can make the starting out process less painful then maybe player retention will improve.

The new tutorial is a good start.  Maybe to help, we could do something as simple as double the starting skills you get from character creation.  Make new characters just a little less pathetic at the beginning.  Make the first ~15 or so levels take less tria/PPs to train.  Stuff like that?  I don't know, I'm just throwing out random ideas.

[Volki]

There are a few players who will protect the state of the game at any cost, and they can be pretty vicious. I'm not sure if they are afraid they will no longer be the elite when casual players can achieve the same levels, or maybe they feel emotionally attached to the game. Either way, those players are discouraging to the majority, and I couldn't care less what a minority of elites has to say.

Care to name a few?

No. Daevoarn might count, with his attitude, but I don't know who he is. Naming players would only make it worse.

Who the hell is this elite class of stuck up players who seem to ignore everyone, defend the game, and god knows what else? I've heard about this for years. It seems to be more of a strawman argument than anything else.

If they ignored everyone, how would they jump on other players for thinking the game too hard? If you've never interacted with these players, then that's great. They're typically grinders and people who have never touched another MMORPG. Luckily, most of the ones I've met have left, but that doesn't mean they haven't negatively affected other players.

By the way, that's not a strawman fallacy. I never made an argument.

As for the progress made in the game......

This thread isn't about comparing the now to the past. Do you think I would bother posting if I knew they would not see it? The purpose of the thread is to convince them and Talad that the issue of difficulty needs to be addressed. This has been a growing problem for years, but it's only gotten worse. Someone had to do something.

[bilbous]

ill-considered treacle infused pompous pontification removed

[Venalan]

... And there have been many developers before you.
... I was saying, pretty obviously, that they (or Talad) ignore criticism.

I have the impression that the current devs on the settings and rules side are much more open to suggestions and discussions than it was ever the case during the previous five years or so.

As for the progress made in the game, those of us who played before 0.5 will recall going for years without any noticeable changes to the game. Since 0.5 or so, Venalan and Eonwind have been both providing feedback on the forums and making considerable changes. Since I joined in late '07, I don't recall ever seeing this much involvement with the player community.

Yeah, it may be harder in some ways, but at least its improving and for once in the last X years, players are actually heard.

We have a series of changes which address a number of the more frequently commented on issues which players have told us about. The next update should be very pleasing. I had more to say but comments bashing devs don't go down well so don't want to put the effort in to saying more here.

[Bonifarzia]

Care to name a few?

No. Daevoarn might count, with his attitude,

but I don't know who he is.

Naming players would only make it worse.

[Rigwyn]

Naming players would only make it worse.

I said that only because I've heard so much about these "elite" and "snobish" players, but I never hear names. Without names, it has little merit. Its just another complaint about "Them", "They" or "Somebody."