Feedback on new progression system

[Talad]

Hi,
with 0.6.1 we introduced a new progression system for skills and we want to get your feedback on it. Training a skill now only happens through practice and there is no more the need for you to learn the theory from trainers. This means you'll are no longer required to go back and forth to the trainer to advance and you won't be required to spend Progression Points and money on it. Please note this is valid for Skills only (Blacksmithing, Sword, ...), but Stats (Agility, Intelligence, ...) continue to work as previously.

[bilbous]

One thing I noticed was that there are various quests that will need to be looked at. This is a particular issue with the way quests because you are supposed to know when it is time to get the next rank's (apprentice, adept, master) quest when the trainer stops training you. Now that trainers no longer train there is no indication when you are to proceed.

I think this is a fine experiment although I have heard concerns from people who no longer have anything to spend their money on. I like the continuous learning aspect.

I will post more thoughts when they are alittle less muddled in my head.

[Tarel]

I more liked the previous system, because now you can train skills without thinking and having the need in searching a trainer.
In my view the economy is failing a lot now, because trias are gained, but there is less to spend them on.

I would love to see a small change, where only progression points are needed to train a skill from a trainer.

Another addition could be that players can train others too, upto the level of training they have.

[Venalan]

@bilbous

Mordaan and I know very well how much a pain this will be with quests and getting all the dialog to match the new training system. As any references to "go see X for 15 lessons" is pointless now and needs removing.

When it comes to skills like cooking or crafting I think something along the lines of "when you can make X you will be skilled enough to continue and should see Y" assuming there are items that you can start making at the level needed by the quest would be a nice In Character way of putting it. And would be something easily noticed by checking the crafting book. For the Way quests it's a little different as many are odd multiples of 10, like 30, and there are no changes with what you can do when you reach those levels for the players to use as a guild line. I am in the middle of testing a way to make things like this much easier for the player, which will have the npc tell you if you are skilled enough, but I need to test it will work correctly before we can release it. I'll know better later today as I'm playing with the system now.

We are also waiting on the decision as to how much this system is liked (and therefor if it is kept) before we make any in game changes as changing it all back again if this system is removed is not something I want to do.

[Sadie]

I very, very much like this version of training!! 
Bilbous does have a valid point about the Way quests ... and as for crafting, that would be a nice indication to let us know, through the books....

Thank you all from my tired feet (and brain) 

 

[MishkaL1138]

I don't know you guys but I'm going to miss training beside my Red Way master...

[helios21]

I definately prefer the new training system for various reasons, including:

• The old one required to go to an NPC way to often IMHO. And in training fighting / defending usually even to different NPCs as more than one skills gets practiced. Sometimes it meant waiting for the next real time day of playing as a NPC was sleeping
• For players who are not into fighting there now it is easier to spend some progression points on skills. Before it was rather difficult to earn PPs that exceed the PPs needed to rank the skill. My char did recurring quests over and over and over again to do this for example.
• I never understand why a NPC should validate the practice my chars made and are then magically able to do so in an instant. I just clicked train and peng there the skill was leveled

Yet I also see some challenges:

• The new training system shows skill leveling in-balances way more clearly
• The new training system reduces interaction with NPCs a lot

I elaborate on these a bit more:

I see how the new system shows skill leveling in-balances more clearly. So for example it is possible to raise armor skills in no time by equipping good armor, possibly including armor of the Defender and then have a ton of mobs fight against the char while casting Life Infusion as needed. I tried this myself. This doesn´t require botting, and I wasn´t botting. I never leaved the client for more than a minute already for the reason to watch the health of my char carefully. For me this shows that armor trains much more quickly than using a weapon. Another probably inbalance has been fixed before release and this is the famous mutiple pet command trick. But in my perception due to the extent that Empathy doesn´t raise at all anymore.

I think its important to watch out for imbalances like this and fix them over time – without punishing players that take advantage of it as long as they are not botting. Actually instead of needing GMs to more carefully watch for botting I have some suggestion to prevent extreme botting via some kind of thing that is actually natural:

It is utterly unrealistic that any char is capable to defend against to ton of mobs for almost unlimited time or do any crafting work for an unlimited time. At some time the char needs to take some rest.

PlaneShift already has a short term concept for that with physical and mana stamina. Would make adding some longer term exhaustion / recovery cycle make sense? Some value that doesn´t decrease very quickly, yet also takes more time to increase again. So that for example a reasonable time a char simply would need to take some rest (just as in real life)? Say after a hour or two the char needs a rest of half a hour or two or something ike that. It would also give more space for RP as during some times a char would not be able to engage in leveling.

On the other hand that might be overdoing things and adding complexity and it may be possible to fix imbalances and prevent some of the botting by balancing out short term stamina stuff. Actually my char doesn´t seem to exhaust at all by defending herself which isn´t all that realistic. Preventing to be hit requires agility and moving quickly, surely this should be somewhat exhausting. Of cause its important not to overdo things there as this may frustrate quite a bit not being able to practice / train for a longer period of time which is one aspect the new training system addressed (no wait for NPC to wake up).

Aside from that, maybe re-introducing some NPC interaction, but not as often, but more rarely may make sense. So at certain mile stones. It would feel natural to me that you can practice and level a skill to some extent and then need a trainer to teach you a certain edge that is difficult to learn all by yourself. In any way on NPC training: I think it should need some time as well, as I find it unnatural that with NPCs its always "Poof! There you have it.". Then this could be used to allow part of the training through giving tria to NPCs as an alternative way which adds some variety. Yet, this would also complicate things again. On which milestones and how does the player know? In that area I also very much like the idea that players can train other players as this offers another incentive to work together in a team.

Another idea would have equipment wearing out, not only shields and armor and weapons, but also other equipment, yet more slowly depending on equipment, a sickle probably quite slow, a rock pick maybe a bit faster, and armor, weapons and so fastest.. And making the effect of wearing out more clearly. Certainly a q1/300 shield shouldn´t offer much protection anymore or at q1/50 weapon be that useful for attacking. Right now I don´t see any disadvantage in using equipment that has quite reduced quality.

Well in summary I think its important to fix any skill leveling inbalances as these show more clearly now and to have some in game mechanics that prevents extreme botting cause I don´t think GMs can watch out for it 24/7. Aside from that I do think its a big improvement and I would keep the change in general.

I do think that keeping the new system offers quite a bit of new opportunities to develop the skills system further.

[helios21]

I don't know you guys but I'm going to miss training beside my Red Way master...

You can still do so for RP purposes.

[bilbous]

Perhaps an accreditation tax could be developed whereby you can keep training all you like but you only get the full benefit when you pay up. If you don't pay your tax then the next level of training would be slower and the tax rate for the new level would be higher.

For example: A character practices digging starting at level 0, completes the level and owes 50 tria in tax. He can go pay his tax or keep digging. If he chooses to keep digging his practice could be at a rate reduced by10% and his tax for this level would be increased by 10%. If he continues beyond this the penalty will increase to 20%, 30%, ... up to a max of 50%.

If you do this then the current trainers can collect the tax at the appropriate levels where they formerly sold training. By doing this you would minimized the alterations that would need to be done to the quest lines.

This idea is probably a non-starter.

[Rigwyn]

I like this very, very much, but I see the problem with potential abuse. It looks like it could very easily be fixed by tweaking the tribes logic so that when a battle goes on for too long, more mobs come in to help - thus overwhelming the AFK player. This could be done in very creative and clever ways.

[Ecthion]

I think the new system is wonderful. It adds a very natural feel to progression, which was lacking before. It makes no sense to have to go "buy" a new lesson to advance skills - speaking as an RL swordsman, a person can become quite skilled simply by developing the intuition needed to fight well, without ever having a single formal lesson. The same is true for crafting/cooking skills - they naturally develop. The new system reflects this quite well, and I think the weapon training is well balanced at the moment.

Accumulating PPs to train anything was a major weakness of the old system, since massive amounts needed to be acquired and this was painfully time consuming. The expenses also got horrendous very quickly, making it difficult to even steadily train a single skill at a time. With the new system, the PPs needed for stats seem to well balanced. It lets a new player get some training in reasonably quickly, but doesn't leave a gaping hole for instant-max characters.

I only have two comments about the new system's balance. A: Ranged training is still painfully slow, even at low levels. I think that the amount of practice needed per level should be slightly reduced. It should still be slower than other skills, but not by as wide a gap as it is now. B: Armor progresses too quickly. Considering how tough the npcs are now (A Cutthroat does a lot of damage to me with 50Q MA, maxed skill, fully defensive stance) this isn't too big of an imbalance, but I think it should be slowed a little bit. Also, since real armor is more of a on/off thing rather than a skill acquired, I don't think that being able to train armor fast is that big of an imbalance. Besides that, from a pure mechanics standpoint, if someone maxes armor but doesn't take the time to train a weapon, all he'll be is a quite harmless but slow to damage opponent.

Overall, I'm very pleased with the new system. The only thing I would suggest changing at all is the practice rate for armor and ranged weapons.

[MishkaL1138]

I don't know you guys but I'm going to miss training beside my Red Way master...

You can still do so for RP purposes.

It won't feel the same and knowing myself I'll just train somewhere hidden so I don't lag myself other players. If I ever decide to play PS again.

[Pakarro]

I refuse to vote. I liked the old system after getting used to it, and , probably, I will like the new one - after getting used to it.

But I'm not sure if this is adding to player experience. Making things easier is not always making them better. When you rank up more easily, people will do that, creating an inflation of ranks in addition to the inflation of tria  and crafted goods already in effect.

Currently, I'm on vacation in New York, experiencing a bad hotel wifi, and no time to play....

Good luck to you all!

[Rigwyn]

Prior to this change, magic training was seriously encheapened^(tm) anyway, so going from dirt cheap to zero does not make much impact. Prior to that, the cost was ridiculously high.

[Zerxzz]

I love the new system, but I think that there are some changes that need to be done.

Currently, these are the most efficient methods of training the basic combat skills:

• Armor: Gather 20+ mobs and go afk in the defensive stance until the npc server crashes
• Weapon: Attack a training dummy with a low damage weapon and go afk in the least aggressive stance, attack again when it respawns and repeat

Perhaps the training dummies could be removed and some changes could be made to prevent excessive afking and make the game play more interesting. The way it is set up now is very uninspiring and encourages players to level up these skills while being away from their screen for long periods of time.