Feedback wanted: Quest system - Your favourite Challenge

[Rigwyn]

Khoridor - I thougt about the possibility of a log off event jamming up an event too. Good point. This sort of thing could be managed with limitations and rules.
For example, a group quest might time out after x minutes if an involved player (or all involved players) is disconnected. Likewise for a multiplayer type quest a limit could be put on how many can be issued at a time.

I see this as something that could be taken quite a bit farther - having spawqned npcs issue additional related quests to anyone who asks and eventually dying once all related quests have been completed or timed out.

Yes, GMs are supposed to do these dynamic quests... Buy why not let a process do it for you?
 

[drJack]

There are two type of multiplayer quest:
The multi player - (optional): ex. you need to kill a monster or to gather items. It is easier to do it in group.
The multi player - (necessary): ex the multi-lever quest. -> You need to pull a number of levers distant from each other and you need to do it at the same time.

But, as Rigwyn says, these are game design issues, not only a quest line issue.
You also mentioned the possibility to make NPC interact with the setting (dynamic NPC). An engine issue. (I divide them, so if anyone want to work on this or study them will be facilitated.)

Nivm you pointed out a possible flaw. Make players feel "not in control" is bad (it is different from "surprises" that are good elements). I agree. I'll try to think something out through the quest lines.
The NPC who trust too much the player is a story (congruency) issue. No problem for them. Easy to correct.
Then you mix the "time quest" with the "No way back." and "A step done is done." They are different issues but I think to understand what you said.

Reading all the above input, and seeing how people may have some specific dislikes, remind me of something I encountered many times through the game. Dialogs roughly go like this: - Would you help me with something? - Yes! (---You've got a quest---) - Ok, here is my problem...

I agree. First a player need to know what to do, then he/she/kra could decide. Otherwise the player had no real choice.

For the ones who are following this post I think you could like some more explainations.
Quest are composed by many elements tied together:
- Challenge.
- Story.
- Reward.
This post was designed to focalize on challenges (story and reward only when they are tied with challenge). Obviously the suggestion about stories and reward are welcome, but I'll try to remain on subject.

Oh... and I identified another type of challenge.
- Item interacting challenge: where the player have to use some item in the setting to obtain something. Ex. the cooking quests in ojaveda.

[Rigwyn]

I guess the challenge would be the conflict and what needs to be done to resolve it, but not the story itself ?

If you google "plot ideas" there are something like 35 known patterns for plots ..  ( some folks will describe these ideas in different numbers - some more, some less .. same difference ...)

These can easily be adapted to fit the ps setting. Its a good source of ideas.
Below are two examples, [ unforturnately I cannot check them at the moment... hope they still work:]

http://www.dndresources.com/index.php?showtopic=6597
http://www.stumbleupon.com/s/#9Th9qT/www.io.com/~sjohn/plots.htm

Regarding quests, I think the biggest pain point with planeshift quests is not being able to find the right npc's ( thats just my opinion )
Would be easier if the npc giving the quest guided you to the correct npc .. ie. if npc says "give this book to x" , then it would be nice if they told you where "x" was. When you dont know the map its a real pain to find the needed npc's 

[Nivm]

 Your second link is a good one, most importantly the end.

Make players feel "not in control" is bad (it is different from "surprises" that are good elements). I agree. [...] Then you mix the "time quest" with the "No way back." and "A step done is done." They are different issues but I think to understand what you said.

Whether it is bad or not depends on how the quest writer handles it; it's one of the elements that is hard to pull off but that much better when you do. I was aiming for such a situation in which the player is taken by circumstances they can't control, and has no choice but to take it to its conclusion (and finds consequences if they don't do it fast enough). When you do this to player, you should not make them feel like their options have been reduced; only increased. You can do this through a combination of making the NPCs look to them for guidance (instead of directing the player exactly where they need to go), and using mechanics and resources they player has encountered before in new ways (strange ways, ways that rotate 90° into a new dimension). Both of these are still difficult and still even better when successful. [rant?] I've seen quite a few quests now where the author tried to keep from "holding the player's hand" but only ended up trying to lose the player completely. Instead of giving vague information that encourages the player to check everything until they find the right thing, leave the details where they would have been left; rumors that give you an idea of who is who and what is what, people mentioning things of great importance among those with none, listing all details of an examined item and leaving the player to know which is important.[/rant?] When making mechanics for a puzzle, you need to make sure that the "right answers" are numerous and make sense, and the "wrong answers" come in swarms and make even more sense. It might seem like a better idea to make sure the "right answers" are always those the player would expect from the information, but then what will the player learn? And what if the author didn't guess correctly?

 The main reason I want to see something like this is to fight of the supreme mediocrity of the quests I've done so far;[rant?] the ones (that seem) designed to pull you in only mean more boring steps, the ones that are written seriously only sound like bad joke, and no matter what happens you can assume that the right item and selection will mean everything will turn out fine. Then it's always jarring when the NPC congratulates you for speedy delivery when you took eight times as long as their normal service does.[/rant?] I want to see quests where time means something, and where your actions mean a multitude. This I have not yet seen.

 I find it kinda funny how DrJack says the developers divide things. I don't see any reason to segment the work, especially in planning where one person can finish it quickly.

(I abuse semicolons, apparently.)

[Candy]

Well, my main issue with escort quests (and admittedly, my experience in them is pretty much in WoW) is that NPCs are morons. They drown themselves, they waddle right into aggressive clumps of giant-crocodile-mobs that it's impossible to solo (unless you're a class with a combat pet/minion, but that's irrelevant >>; ), even with the NPC fighting alongside you, they stop every five seconds to catch their breath or something, and in one case, even if you manage to successfully complete the stupid quest, the dude gets shot down at the end anyway. That one really made me nerdrage.

Now I'll admit, I might check one out if PS could implement them in such a way that your NPC isn't all like "Hurr, ahm gon' walk right up to every single monster on the map and kite 'um over to ya". I mean, I don't mind fighting a few things - particularly if the NPC I'm escorting is helping me out - but in the ones I'm used to, the challenge lies in the fact that your NPC has an IQ of a negative number.

Anyway, I totally support the idea of having a "You are being offered a(n) x challenge" message showing up, and having the NPC give an idea of what you're doing. Realistically, at least among the people I've known, nobody immediately gives a yes or no when asked for a favor with no details. At best you'd get a reply to the effect of "Well, what kind of favor?"

[Knightspark9]

I like the types of quests where you travel, or bassicaly a storyline of all of the types combining

[drJack]

Thanks for the links, Rigwyn.

I guess the challenge would be the conflict and what needs to be done to resolve it, but not the story itself ?

They're two different things. Some player prefer one, some other prefer the other. I would like to improve both.

Story have elements like characters, motivation, congruency, chronology etc.
Challenge have other elements like difficulty, GUI, Way to solve etc.

Conflict is one of the elements that ties the two.

Then it's always jarring when the NPC congratulates you for speedy delivery when you took eight times as long as their normal service does.

One of the new thing you said is that the NPC will recognize honestly the player effort. And giving compliments to everyone could be like giving to no one.
I'll try to do something about this.
And, Nivm, I understand your points. There's no problem, I (think to :p) understand what you're saying. And I will try to improve the elements you defined.

I find it kinda funny how DrJack says the developers divide things. I don't see any reason to segment the work, especially in planning where one person can finish it quickly.

Well, this is really above this topic .
Ok to talk here and there about some engine issues or other part of the challenge system, but the question under your statement is about mangement of people :p.
I know that if we want we can dig in this topic and go deep (challenge is tied with everything if we want to analyze it), but I prefer to focalize on the types of challenge already implemeted (or easily implementable :p).

Thanks also for the new answers, Candy and Kinghtspark9.
Sorry for my late reply, but this week I had some connection problems.

Please, remember that this is only a topic of a prospect member (me) who want to familiarize with the quest challenges and to hear it from the players.

[verden]

After playing through the Winch quests again, I would say that my favorite quests are those that put the character in a position of jeopardy regarding factions. There should be many lower-level quests that offer dark side/light side choices but with small faction changes. This would give developing characters the chance to go good or go bad, but maybe wouldn't be so great as to make those choices irrevocable. I don't know if I said that good. I really like how things started developing once I got to Datal though.

[Bragan]

I really enjoy the riddle quests, but then again I've got more than just a slight intellectual bent. I particularly enjoyed the riddle posed by the captain of the guard in Gugrontid (forget the name) where I gave an answer I was sure was the one, and he says something like "Actually, the I was looking for answer is <x>, but your answer <y> is also appropriate and correct".

Travel/fetch quests are typically boring to me, except where the story makes it worthwhile. For example, the Starhammer quest where we see Trasok's animosity and learn the cause for it, recruiting Grimal Bloodaxe, him then realizing how old he is, the build-up and humorous let-down of Aerayau's "Great Adventure" quest (funny that carrying an order of food typically requires seasoned troops).

I'm not as bothered by hunt quests as some others are, they typically give me another reason to train my (currently pathetic) combat skills. Still working on being able to kill an ulbernaut for its heart, I know it'll take a while but I'm ok with that.

I agree that multiplayer-enabled quests would bring a lot of interest, as well as more complex plot structures -- having choices available, some clear but some not immediately obvious. There is one in the rare disease quest, but because I am so used to quests being completely linear I didn't think of the obvious fact that I didn't have time to dawdle by going to the BD on another fetch/carry. I think that if there were more such quests, it would become common practice to wonder whether there is another way of completing the quest rather than agreeing to every NPC's request.

EDIT: I think that for quests that require player-crafted items (like the sabre quest), quest rewards might be given based on the quality of the item. If poor ones are given, "You call these sabres? My hammer has a sharper edge! Still, I've got to make this delivery and I suppose these'll do" (you get a minimal amount of tria). If superior/extraordinary, "My, these are fine blades indeed! I'm sure I'll be able to get a bonus from these. Here's a little extra for you!". If finest sabres are given, maybe even toss in an item, like an uncommon glyph or other item. A golden ring, for example, would allow you to advance in a quest that needs it without having to go through the trouble of collecting tefusang hides. There you've made the quest itself more interesting (and actually make me want to give the NPC good sabres), while at the same time providing an alternative way of completing another quest.

[Nivm]

Please, remember that this is only a topic of a prospect member (me) who want to familiarize with the quest challenges and to hear it from the players.

Yeah, but you're currently doing a much better job with what you have available. It's a very good thing when people talk to each other.

 I also wanted to bring attention to the kind of problem I posted in #4492 (wanted to make it official). It's those situations where the serious nature of the game clashes with the really bad jokes that the writers made. The questions Levrus asks in that quest really do make it seem like he messing with you for the fun of it, or is becoming senile. I'm not totally sure what thought path brought about this creation, but it wasn't successful.

[Candy]

I think Levrus is supposed to be kind of a wackjob anyway. Have you asked him "about purple"?

[Nivm]

I don't think I've used the /about command successfully to date. I was worried that his responses were exemplary of much of the rest of the game. Nothing so far has challenged that idea.

[Candy]

I never used a slash before "about", myself. I just clicked the NPC tab, said "About purple", without the slash, and he started ranting.

[Nivm]

I think I will remember.

 I wanted to know how many people here have studied the quests from the game "Arcanum", for they are quite similar in mechanics to Plane Shift quests. I stumbled across an Arcanum Let's Play and noticed two interesting concepts (the page of the Let's Play I linked exemplifies both). The first is the influence of skill and stats (charisma, intelligence and negotiation) on the options available; higher charisma and negotiation gives you more options, while intelligence influences those options. Having low intelligence in the game will ruin your grammar and make many people refuse to speak you to, but having extremely high intelligence will skew all your options to the related stereotype. I think it would be an awesome way to liven up the dialogs (the person doing the Let's Play even gets drunk on multiple occasions to get the stupid options for fun).
 The second has to do with conversation design. The link demonstrates the player speaking to a dwarven king, and although the conversation acts like a kind of memory quiz, it flows like a real conversation, and the riddle-nature is very subtle. Of course, it might just be the player's role-play talking.
(I think it's been 24 hours since I last had sleep now.)

[drJack]

There should be many lower-level quests that offer dark side/light side choices but with small faction changes. This would give developing characters the chance to go good or go bad, but maybe wouldn't be so great as to make those choices irrevocable

Moral choice... if we change it a bit we maybe can create some moral challenge. A moral choice is easy enough, but I think that moral challenge needs a special type of prize. It is not always applicable, but I'll try to think about it.

Bragan:
I see that you like when a NPC interact realistically to your words, a nice point I think. You also say that a good story could make you forgot a bad challenge :p. We'll try to make them both good.

I think that for quests that require player-crafted items (like the sabre quest), quest rewards might be given based on the quality of the item.
Here you say again you want some honest answer from the NPC, you're not the first you asked for it. I'll take in mind this.
You also pointed out a new challenge.

Item creation challenge: where a player need to create an object for the NPC.

Nivm:
Thanks for the links, and for all your opinions. I really appreciate your enthusiasm in giving your feedback.