Wipe y/n?

[Adder]

I'm with the guy who said to do wiping in fixed intervals.

But one can expand the idea:
- wipe in big intervals of at least 3 months
- determine the interval beforehand
- have a persistent highscore list with several categories for each interval
- let players upload a screenshot of their main character in a special gallery or a subforum so people can boast a bit even when they have been reset

My gut feeling by the way is that I dislike the wipes, but I realize they are needed sometimes.

[Timmothy Perriwinkle]

Lol, 3 month wipes. Hahahahahahhahahahahaa.

You suck at MMORPGs.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

I just want to say those concerned about the tone of this debate, don't conflate the invective this thread is receiving from certain players with the stance of the developers. None of us has said anything even slightly stinging in this thread.

As for my posting this with the "have fun" initially, I wanted to let the debate go unbiased by developer views to start. I came back into the thread when the community asked me to to give some of the reasons I feel a wipe is merited.

For those that are defending a wipe, try to argue on the merits of the case as you see it rather than attacking the "whining" etc or reminding people they are testers.

Although it is 100% true that all psers are testers it is ALSO true that they are part of the community.

To those saying that we shouldn't ask the players and we should just do as we want with no feedback, that undermines the idea that we are in fact building this game together, as players and devs. When the time comes and we have 100% consensus among devs, we will wipe. Our wanting to understand where the players stand on such an action by the devs seems to be an inherent right of volunteering for the game, so I am not buying the idea that this is some kind of horrible "customer relations."

Seeing people make divisive comments on such a significant shift in their gaming experience is not only expected, but welcome. As long as people can avoid the fallacies inherent in such discussions, we can only grow as a community by talking this out.

I have learned a bit about how people feel about a wipe from reading this. I have seen new criteria that would comfort some people on the idea of a wipe from this thread.  I have seen some concerns that I hadn't considered. So if we're actually involved in dialogue (however limited or some might say "censored") I don't see the harm in a directed debate conducted with moderators in place on so large an issue.

Also of note, support for a wipe is now significantly larger in the community than it has been in the past, what do we take from that?

[uvilat]

I am ok with a wipe.  I am fairly new, although I have done quite a bit of work in my choosen profession to get where I am today.  I've been contemplating creating a new character anyway for the sake of a new start with a better understanding of the game.  I would like to recommend that the bank account deposits could be preserved.  I realize the bank really has no purpose at this current point.  But I make it a habit to put a percentage of what I earn in to the bank, for RP purposes.  Kinda what one might do in RL.  However, that would be a great incentive for more players to start using the bank.  If one could salvage some of what they have worked for when wipes are necessary, more players would be inclined to use the bank until more uses for the bank are developed (if there are any plans for making the banking system more useful).

[Illysia]

I think the shift in how people feel about wipes is because of more people who want something to do again, as they may have maxed their characters, and more people who have little for their characters to actually lose actually speaking up this time.

[gaelfx]

I actually think Rigwyn has made an excellent point, although I don't much appreciate the perspective of players not mattering. Wipes should be done regularly, as updates should. If instead of lumping so many massive changes into one update every year or so or whatever, update every couple of months (doesn't the website say to expect this somewhere?) fixing only a couple of issues, big or small, and wipe with each update. If different metrics are put in place making it (possibly too) easy to level stats/skills, it would allow players to test higher levels and lower levels within a couple of months and then they can use that knowledge for the next couple of months when they make a new character. This would make it necessary to inform players of what specific changes have been made and what kinds of things they should be keeping an eye on for the two months of that character's life and, I imagine, would significantly improve development by focusing more on one issue at a time per department. I feel that many of the players who are against a wipe feel so strongly about it because there has been so much time between wipes and this causes them to feel a greater sense of loss when a wipe finally does happen; more frequent updates/wipes would, I hope, cause them to feel a greater sense of gain, in terms of game knowledge. Right now, our knowledge of the game makes us realize that a wipe will mean so many more hours of grind to get back to where we want to be. This is why I think the metrics need to be majorly softened in these testing stages we are going through, so people will not feel apprehensive about starting over again. As for balancing leveling, it seems this should be more of a "final project" before the 1.0 release, since the mechanics of the game clearly need plenty of attention still.

I guess I should try to sum this up before it just becomes a blob of text. There are two main points I feel need reiteration:
1. More frequent and SMALLER updates
2. More frequent wipes accompanied by specific information about the goals of the accompanying update
These two things would make me fully support wiping now and in the future. I really hope that it's possible to implement this kind of change in how things are done, but I don't know enough about game development to know if I'm being shortsighted or not, so please tell me if there is some problem with this model that I don't see.

[verden]

I think it means that there are more people involved with the project who are serious about seeing this game evolve past the point where the world database is crammed with characters who took advantage of past exploits, who would really like it to mature into a real game, rather than being the sandbox of an elite few.

[Tuxide]

http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=18077.0

search for threads around that time frame.  That was the date when we performed "the great wipe" to kick off the migration to the CB client series from the MB series.

From what I have seen thus far, this new client series will be as great a jump as it was during the transition back then.  History repeating itself.

No that wasn't the wipe from MB to CB, this was the one from CB 0.3.010 to CB 0.3.011.

[PhoenixRizin]

I think the best way to sum up the concerns of players about a wipe (and correct me if im wrong) is a loss of continuity. It sounds like not just a loss of stats (which affects continuity as well because certain characters have acquired skills related to how they RP ie crafting skills like smithing and cooking) but a loss of characters, guilds, and history in general. They will have to scramble to put these things back together in a mad dash, and naturally there is the risk of someone taking another player's name/guild name/etc. whether it be of accident or spite or ill humor.

I've been playing PS for almost a year now (Dec 1st will be the anniversary), and I can say not just the back story from when I started matters, but the experiences my character has gone through. I'm pretty lenient when it comes to losing my own stats. I haven't trained my crafting as high as I'd like because the time I'd have to put into it would be too much. So I do so when I can. I could only imagine for someone who really dedicated themselves to it what a wipe would take away. Maybe its a wakeup call for the investment put into the game. Maybe for some its worth it, for others not so much. But as been pointed out, having so much time to grow these characters (whether through RP OR leveling), to erase them is almost effectively erasing the history of the game.

So my biggest question about the wipe is: what happens to the PS lore that has been growing all this time? Is the wipe going to effectively eliminate all that has happened? I think this rich history, and the continuation of history from players that may no longer play but have characters that are still discussed, gives a certain feel to this game that will be possibly lost by a wipe. And if it chases off many players, then what then? Even if I COULD continue my character's odyssey, many of the characters that marked the path and who he currently interacts with and are determining his future will be nullified. Vanished. As if they never existed. To me, the wipe sounds like the TV cliffhanger where we find out next season that the last one was all a dream. If it is one, I don't think Jonoth would ever want to wake up.

[Rigwyn]

I was actually being sarcastic when I suggested a weekly wipe.
The point in wiping weekly is to eliminate the players from the testing community altogether.

Is that what the PS team really wants ? I would say not.
If they didn't want players then they would not waste they time recruiting GM's, hosting events, answering settings questions, settling spats etc..

So now zoom out a little .. If the PS team does want to have an environment of players at this time then its important to ensure that the environment will attract players - and the *particular type* of players that are wanted for testing. Wipes are very discouraging and do nothing in terms of maintaining a base of players. People that just chat and don't play that game would be least affected by these wipes and would also be least effective in testing the game ( I'll probably get flamed for saying that but I think its the truth )

I am glad to hear the players are considered part of the community.. Thank you.

[Vannaka]

Pardon me if I've missed something, I've only read about 90% of this thread, so I hope I didn't miss anything important.  I say wipe it.  I started playing PlaneShift something like a year and a half ago, and since then I haven't seen any major changes to gameplay.  I like the idea of beta testing, and seeing new features as the game evolves, however it seems like almost all of the changes in the last year have been under the surface.  Of course these changes are important, but I think most beta testers are more excited to see new skills, new spells and new cities.  I haven't played actively for something like 4 or 5 months now because with so few visible changes to the game I simply ran out of things to do.  If a wipe is needed for the dev team to move onto these things, then it should be done.  You might lose your super stats and your rare items, but isn't it worth losing that if it means the game as a whole will be improving?

[Sarras Volcae]

asdlfkjdfkj

(i'm not reposting that thing lol)

went on a rant there, didn't you? iz yoo uhmerikan, by any chance?

the subject of rp has nothing to do with a wipe. don't make it a basis for your opinion. especially if you're one of those elitists who hope it'll push "plers" to ezpcusa (akaaaaaaaiddoo)...

And sorry Mord, RP is not as robust as it used to be. It will take a decent hit, but I admit that is more player fault than wipe fault.

i don't know how robust rp used to be, but it seems pretty robust now.... a lot of "oldbies" seem to think rp is dying in ps. it's not. it's thriving here. the game is even devoted to it. there's no reason for all this pessimism.

xillix, why would you make platinum harder to get?

[Marqsaynt]

So my biggest question about the wipe is: what happens to the PS lore that has been growing all this time? Is the wipe going to effectively eliminate all that has happened? I think this rich history, and the continuation of history from players that may no longer play but have characters that are still discussed, gives a certain feel to this game that will be possibly lost by a wipe. And if it chases off many players, then what then? Even if I COULD continue my character's odyssey, many of the characters that marked the path and who he currently interacts with and are determining his future will be nullified. Vanished. As if they never existed. To me, the wipe sounds like the TV cliffhanger where we find out next season that the last one was all a dream. If it is one, I don't think Jonoth would ever want to wake up.

As far as I know, any wipe that occurred would be a purely OOC event. Basically, you can just re-create your character (if need be) and pick up where you left off RP-wise... Think about it, in a world where everyone is weak, no one is weak. Why roleplay a character losing strength when they are arguably the strongest character in all of Yliakum? However, if you really need to come up with a reason why suddenly you feel the need to punch out a gang of trepors, can always use the good ol' "oh, just felt like brushing up on my boxing" excuse.

Regarding a few other concerns about roleplay diminishing while people level up, of course this will happen... but, it will only be temporary and considering this same "explore-ignore RP" effect occurs every major update I don't see why it should be a deterrent to a wipe, if a wipe is indeed deemed necessary.

[weltall]

:
1. More frequent and SMALLER updates

it's not possible or at least it's not possible while supporting macosx clients.
while windows and linux static clients can be generated quite fast and frequently, even automatically, macosx doesn't allow it. Due to it's closed nature to work only on one type of hw (making it unusable on a server), due to the fact generating binaries for it is a nightmare only some people can do and wish to do, due to the fact it uses an exotic packaging. As a matter of fact a person took 3 months to get a static client to build and that's still without an installer and was on ppc, while we had windows and linux binaries for 0.5 since months and months and they are updated quite easily.
If it wasn't for this problem ezpcusa testing would be already open right now, altough there are some big regression for standard playing they aren't big enough for hindering testing of an RC

[Akkaido Kivikar]

So drop the Macs then

Mac users are usually rich enough to afford WoW or something