PS SkunkWorks Project 01

[Illysia]

That works both ways. There is a reason betas are often closed and I wouldn't even say PS is that far along. Beta would imply you are somewhat close to ver. 1.00... You can't hide behind "PS is a beta" when someone points out problems then turn around expect everybody to be a top notch beta testers that can tweak the game.

If people with minimum computer knowledge are not the best testers then this should not be open to the public yet, but since it is there needs to be more accommodation for the fact that most of the people playing the game are average people with average knowledge. Most people playing the game have to learn how to tweak it to get it to work. Very few come in with that knowledge, but even in beta, an open to the pubic game should be a little better about needing to be tweaked. However, that would be expecting PS to follow established patterns for game development...

The point is not that it should just work now but that should be the goal which is why you would have more people working on the concept than just the coders... However, if someone wants to put a "Don't come and play unless you have X technical skill sets" sign on the main page then go for it. At least it would be warning up front.

[Tuathanach]

I voted for graphics due to need for Character models so people know I am a lemur

[RlyDontKnow]

That works both ways. There is a reason betas are often closed and I wouldn't even say PS is that far along. Beta would imply you are somewhat close to ver. 1.00... You can't hide behind "PS is a beta" when someone points out problems then turn around expect everybody to be a top notch beta testers that can tweak the game.

If people with minimum computer knowledge are not the best testers then this should not be open to the public yet, but since it is there needs to be more accommodation for the fact that most of the people playing the game are average people with average knowledge. Most people playing the game have to learn how to tweak it to get it to work. Very few come in with that knowledge, but even in beta, an open to the pubic game should be a little better about needing to be tweaked. However, that would be expecting PS to follow established patterns for game development...

thanks for pointing that out, let's better close the game and make it dev+reviewed testers only till 1.0, will definetely reduce the amounts of complaints  never would've thought of that...

[Eliseth]

Ok, I think both sides have made their points. Please let's try staying on topic.

I really don't want to have to lock or cut my own thread 

 

[neko kyouran]

Ok, I think both sides have made their points. Please let's try staying on topic.

I really don't want to have to lock or cut my own thread 

I could do it if you like?  I even have a song I can play whilst doing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0ey8r-nR6k

:-3

[Caraick]

* Caraick just listened to that... That should be the official PS forum moderator's theme song 

[LigH]

A young female Stonehammer ...

Stonehammer. Aha.

* Esanor Serich feels a need to visit Gugrontid again...

[Aiwendil]

Read the latest blog entry Eliseth (I am obviously too stupid to find out how to comment there ) and only wanted to say that this looks much more like out-of-the-box thinking and more worthy of the really good people you gathered in your team. Hope you keep on working on side projects like this (and gather opinions and ideas not only on game improvements but also on workflow, communication and the project in the whole).

I'm sure there are a lot of other ideas out there that might be worth discussing on how to improve the development process of PS and regain a bit of trust from a part of the community back. While I am not really a supporter of the ABC license already some smaller steps than getting rid of it might give some good results. For example I could imagine packing the PS client also with some none-ABC content like more gui skins for the start. Might show some people that their work is appreciated and makes them want to contribute more. Or maybe come up with some ideas to make it easier for none-PS-team-members to add something to the game...the developer's test server could be opened for interested developers after them asking for an account there. Maybe also some more effort could be put in explaining none-Team-members how stuff can be done for PS...I know there is again that personal problem that keeps the team from writing documentation but already the logs with hints and suggestions for the latest graphics-team member might help some people to come up with some own art for PS.

So let me just say in the end that after reading my previous post here I found it much harsher than I wanted to write it. I was just a bit disappointed about what the first post of this thread suggested (at least to me)..just another team that filters ideas of players even more until nothing is left of them and thinks adding new stuff is all that is needed to solve the current problems. Seems I was wrong about that....so allow me to conclude with the wish that the whole skunkwork team succeeds with this and doesn't end up disappointed like some others. Good luck to you all.

[Eliseth]

Thank you Aiwendil. The team had another meeting today. Please read the blog for details.

https://sites.google.com/site/planeshiftskunkworks/blog/mechanicsvsgraphics

Please continue to post feedback and ideas. It all helps to build a big picture.

[Aiwendil]

Okay, so some more ideas. Nothing really new...but who knows, maybe after all those years and lost players it is taken more serious now

• get rid of the ABC license or at least
- allow non-ABC arts in official client
- allow self-compiled clients on the official servers
- come up with some rules about modified clients and what modifications would be acceptable for the official servers. (Everything allowing cheating obviously not, also not something that might endanger the stability of the server...but people including copy and paste support or a spellchecker in the client should be allowed to try out...in general don't discourage people from adding new features to PS but rather encourage them)
- make the content of the wiki GPL or CC in general and mark only the parts that are ABC (not the other way around like now)

• public introductions for team members. Make a subforum and have every new team member (GM or developer) post a few words about him-/herself, what he/she thinks he/she can do for PS and what he/she had done so far. Make a rule that poking a player char of a GM about GM work is harassment and to be punished then get rid of the stupid anonymity of the PS team)
• stop that unified front against the players nonsense...the players aren't the enemies and no team ever works without some differences between their members.
• allow team members to state their own opinion in public
• make a official forum account for every department used to post official statements or the opinion of the team in the whole
• put up settings info in public for discussion (to get some new ideas that weren't thought of before) even if they are not finished yet
• approach writers of good stories to rework them slightly to fit all settings requirements then include the stories in game. (books, stories told by NPCs...and yes I know LigH, but meaning this less as a library and more like including players work in the official settings)
• much more public announcements what the team is up to (posts about outcomes of GM discussions about sexual topics in game, rule changes in general, "What to expect from the next Version"-posts...)
• work (closer) together with some other free/OSS mmorpg projects
• Compose a list of feature requests that are looked into already and planned for the future. Maybe a sticky post in the wish-list with each feature a link to the according thread(s). Just to show people their ideas are not ignored and will be taken up again if there is time or enough manpower
• Make use of the player community...Ask in advance what changes to crafting/cooking/combat...need to be done and what side-effects those changes might have. Not saying to follow everything the players say there but they are usually the ones who spend much more time using the system and might have something to add that wasn't thought of before.
• In general, act according to the beta (alpha) state of the game. There is no need to try to "surprise" player with new features by hiding everything until it's released. There are no players only testers..so treat them like this and ask for their opinion. In a way this also is about the No-Spoiler policy. Testers should have access (If they want) to some spoilers so that they can verify themselves if something is broken.
• Ask people suggesting a new idea or complaining about something to form a small task-group, discuss the issue in it and present a "paper" with the outcome to the team. And then take that outcome seriously into consideration.
• Write up a policy about submitting feature requests. Only on the bugtracker? Should they be discussed in the forums first? Is it needed to talk to the PS team in IRC about it?
• Include all settings infos from the mainpage in the wiki, delete them from the mainpage and ask for volunteers to keep those infos updated
• Create a RP server! (Sorry, couldn't resist)

Edit: guess what...typos

[Minks]

I voted graphics. How a game looks is the second impression any new player gets (the first being download/registration/installation process).

And let's face it, we need more players.

Certainly, people will argue now, "quality vs. quantity", "we need only the "right" kind of players" (whatever that is, the opinions obviously differ greatly at this point. In my humble opinion, the evolution of the player base is a natural process anyway. You can try to direct it a bit but you can't force it. )

But.
These days, all commercial games, even those as old as Morrowind (2002) with the right mods have shinier graphics than PS (probably also most free games, but I lack experience there). People are spoiled. Prettier textures, more models and animations to look at, maps to explore and clothes to try might keep a lot of players at it until they get to appreciate the ingame community and roleplay. I know from my own experience as a newbie that this might take at least a few weeks of lonely stumbling around.

And more players will mean more chance for casual and organized roleplay, yes, also more levelling, cities looking more alive, more ideas, more potential bug reporters, bug fixers, tester, contributors, GMs and even full devs. More everything.

[Jacula]

Aiwendil is right on the money, read it thoroughly and take it to heart, not just into consideration.

[Sangwa]

Aiwendil's critiques about license and spoilers are right on the spot. Those are very important steps indeed.

The rest doesn't seem half as healthy, because if implemented it'll make PlaneShift even more of an effort, by adding new variables into everything. It's just not worth the good it'll bring, because player/tester opinion is usually 80% crap and because it'll imply slowing down or going against a stream.

Have some blokes figuring out what is the general opinion in the forums? Sure (SkunkWorks is a pretty good way to do that). Get some blokes to answer to people's doubts in the forums? Sure (Some mods/devs have been doing it, though not enough). Create teams, features, processes, etc. to further augment the noise these people make? Better not.
It's for the best that PS doesn't become the community's slave, because the project actually needs a better reference than the shifting winds of the general mood. I say it's better to displease some people, as long as it's done with an "In Your Face" approach... That way people who aren't synchronized with the project can be sure about it and leave, allowing the community to become more coherent and therefore facilitate the job of the those who are stuck with interacting with it.

[Caraick]

Agreed 110% with Aiwendil...

[Vakachehk]

I now vote for Aiwendil, not graphics