PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gravemind on January 04, 2009, 08:02:44 pm
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Ok, in another thread which was later locked for an unrelated reason, I mentioned that when an Atheist dies, it is permadeath, though this is not reflected in-game yet because there is no effects of religion programming.
I got replies along the lines of "This is complete nonsense. Seriously dude."
For my next trick, I would like to bring your attention to a rather nice book - "The Four Revelations of Dakkru" by Londris Kolaim. You can find this book, along with a few others, in your local hell.
And I quote - 'Three. We gods shall no longer spare the faithless; you who do not revere a deity or follow a sacred path, you shall have no succor, and you will be folded into Me as your spirit shrivels. All who die the true death are Yliakum's gifts to Me.'
The books also details the nature of Dakkru's curse - that a small part of you is taken away in order to power the black crystal.
I had previously assumed that Revelation 3. meant that when an atheist dies, they are taken entirely into Dakkru / the black crystal and are thus denied resurrection or probably not even capable of it when the entirety of their 'life essence' has been taken away.
We will now open this to discussion, and hopefully some input from the settings team :)
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Your post was probably better placed here (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=29670.0). However, I do not understand your logic. Nowhere in the passages you quote does it say that being an atheist means that when you die you perma-die.
What that book says is that anyone who enters her realm has to pay in order to get out, hence the curse, and those who die permanently, whether they are atheist or religious, belong to her, since she rules over death in Yliakum.
Edit: Ok. I think I see your point now. It is valid to infer that true death awaits those with no faith who should they enter Dakkru's realm since no god will bail them out. It remains, imo, possible that the punishment it speaks of be something else as the book is written now but it might be edited in the future as the game develops. When or if that happens, I'll be (once more) completely wrong. :)
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'Three. We gods shall no longer spare the faithless; you who do not revere a deity or follow a sacred path, you shall have no succor, and you will be folded into Me as your spirit shrivels. All who die the true death are Yliakum's gifts to Me.'
That right there. Not sparing the faithless, I would assume means that those who are faithless will not be spared.
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That is ambiguous at best but it could also be taken to mean that they will suffer the full effects of the curse while faithful followers of the various gods will have some of the effect negated.
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especially note the part about "will be folded into Me as [their] spirit shrivels"
That's before she talks about people who die by means that usually end in permadeath coming to her
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Everyone gets folded into her, atheists just that much faster.
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Assume gravemind is correct: discuss.
Assume Prolix is correct about it being ambiguous: discuss.
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To me it does sound like it means permadeath, but I don't like it. It makes perfect sense that the gods wouldn't grant an atheist exit from the death realm, but that also means it's nearly impossible to play an atheist character in the long term. Also characters can be more than what is specified in the character creation, so this could never be implemented with mechanics really... for instance, if a character is created as an atheist but then later has something happen that would lead him to follow Talad, he is no longer an atheist, even though he was created as one. (i know it's a bit off topic since we weren't talking about mechanics, but w/e) So i guess basically it makes sense that all atheists would die permadeaths, but if they really did then nobody would play as one. Just think, if atheists died permadeath always, we'd have no Orgonwukh!
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Assuming atheism means you character is deleted when you die (permadeath) Then you will have atheists paying lip service to one god or another. Can a system really be put into place that would distinguish this from true faith? Well you can make it so that characters have to continually do favors for the npc faithful (priests and notable adherents) in order to maintain their status but this would either alienate the role play crowd or require many gm events for them to satisfy the requirements. Not all of them, of course but the more ardent "I wanna play with people not game mechanics" crowd. I am not certain how large this contingent really is.
I really suppose it depends on what is required to be considered a parishioner (if you will), Bilbous has dome some favors for laanx and even made a donation in the course of one of these his faction is fairly high. He does not consider himself a follower, even so, his talad is almost the same and his xiosia is increasing. He just gets bored and does errands for people without giving much thought to who they are or what they want. He doesn't always complete them satisfactorily, some things are less interesting after he finds out what they entail.
I am not entirely sure to what extent the coders want to enforce this, it would seem to me that there will be less problems with my original interpretation. Even so having any such system might require gm involvement at an unprecedented level. What is to be done with the mechanistically pious character who is most blasphemous in player to player conduct? The NPC's will treat him as a saint and nothing could be further from the truth.
On further thought just disallow it as an option if it offends you so much.
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The system could be activated by GMs/Devs per request of the players with a sort of flag. If they wish to play an atheist they can file a petition the moment they become one. Once activated, if they die, they perma-die (maybe locking the character so it can't be loaded after death, but keeping the option open to delete it). They could also petition the removal of this flag if they, at some point in their RP, join a religion, obviously while still alive. Maybe...
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Firstly, I suppose other gods are more powerful than Dakkru, why else would Dakkru be prevented from keeping everyone over there, say all Laanx- and Talad-believers as well?
So they grant Dakkru the right to release the ones believing in her, and granting her the right to keep the ones not believing in anyone.
So there is no hope in Yliakum? None of the two major gods would intervene in Dakkru keeping a "soul" that still had all chances to be a Laanx or a Talad follower for instance? What if a baby died, still not believing?
The main deities allow minor gods to please the people by outstanding presents, and as well allow another minor god to take away their future sheep?
Perhaps someone should redefine these main gods as puppets that like to be fleeced? :P
I dont like it, sounds too much of a world of evil gods, all of them, cold and relentless, and belief would be caused, or say forced, by mere fear instead of fate of things could be better one day.
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It is not the gods which must be defined and understood, but religion.
First, it doesn't make sense to choose one god to worship when one isn't a priest. This is misunderstanding polytheism. One can worship all the gods he wants, or none, since that's the priest job to worship while people are busy working. There's a big difference between faith and worship.
Then there are irreligious people. They never pray, never give to the temples, etc. Their main source of trouble should come from priests, not the gods.
Then there are people who insult the gods. For those, direct punishment from the gods may be considered. Who punishes, how and how often should be deduced directly in game. We can witness Laanx smiting people once in a while, but we cannot assume why Dakkru keeps people alive or not. We know what the priests tell us, nothing more.
In short, part of the setting team may know things about the gods, but what they know is not what we are supposed to know, what they will write in books and dialogs. Interpretations and polemics must exist inside religion, between priests, even in the same temples. And let's not forget that priests will make up things by themselves, for their own purpose.
The fact remains that all this is RP-only. In the absence of a system that measures worship, death shall be the same for everybody. Such a system is probably impossible anyway. If atheism doesn't make sense, it is not because of game mechanics. Monotheisms first cared about heresy and paganism, not atheism; about different, concurrent religions. PlaneShift has, apparently, only 1 pantheon, and I think that the debate should shift to the proper basis. The gods don't need proselytism; the concurrence, if any, is political and social between the mortals.
I, for one, would see the choice of a god removed from character creation (although not from the events), and let characters be religious or not in game.
I would also like to be able to identify priests. Certainly, not everybody can be one. The system opens all skills to everyone, but there are ways to separate the jobs. Most unclear is what separates a wizard from a priest. Maybe a Devotion skill would do? With predefined spots in the temples (akin to forges and ovens) where priests spend time praying, lighting candles for people, rotating bells, copying sacred texts, whatever... (Ideally something different for each god).
With these two steps, the issue of atheism is already gone. No more mislead from character creation, and no more confusion between faith and worship in game. Priests worship full time, others worship when they care to, or pretend to care, and everybody is happy. What is left to do is the gods' direct involvement into mortal affairs. There is no law enforcement yet, faith enforcement is not more urgent, and both will stay the same for a while: GMs discretion, privilege and availability.
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Strong atheist=refusing to acknowledge the existance of any god:
These chars deserve to die permanently. It takes a great deal of ignorance and stupidity to get to this point and to ignore the obvious presence of gods throughout Yliakum, and if they convince more characters of their points of view the gods are in danger of being forgotten. Or even worse. The people of Yliakum may fall into the hands of the BlackFlame.
Weak atheists=People that know the gods exist but do not worship them:
These people deserve nothing but pity. The gods reward those that follow the sacred paths greatly (Xiosiamas :P) and it requires a lot of bitterness to deem any god not worthy of following. However, these characters do also diminish faith in the gods and their hearts are subject to corruption. If they are unwilling to change, death should be permanent.
Polytheism:
Every being in Yliakum is polytheistic. Why not thank many gods for what they have done and receive more benefits? Only few, mostly the priests, would have tendencies towards one god or the other. The gods do not fight each other any more. Why should their priests quarrel? Some might, true. But the majority would not. If you are not chosen as your god's favourite follower, would you be willing to risk the wrath of the other gods?
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I play games for the entertainement value. The entertainment value of PS is already pretty low to me, due to countless encounters with so called "roleplayers", who constantly drop out of character to lecture me in [bracketspeak] on what they consider to be in character and how I "must" act (the idiocy here is overwhelming).
Religions in real life are a scam and I strongly oppose to them. Make it mandatory for me to follow one in PlaneShift and behave in what I would normally call idiotic ways, then the entertainment value drops even further. I don't really want to have to say "Hail Xiosa" in public once a login day, just to avoid permadeath.
As far as my character is concerned, gods do exist. Big deal, so do rocks. I don't worship rocks either and I couldn't care less about what is written in religious tracts. These were obviously not written by the gods themselves, but by worshippers who have an agenda of pushing their religion and hence the truth value of the texts is questionable at best. Even if the books were directly dictated by the deity in question, this would still not matter to me, as gods can lie too (see BF, which at least honestly admits being full of deceit). The best any god can expect from my character is a lip service and even that will only be given if it is rewarding.
Furthermore, I'd like to mention, that the PS gods are anything but almighty and infallible. They may be powerful beyond mortal means, but they are still incompetent in countless ways:
* Talad made Laanx's boobs fall off by accident
* Laanx then decided to bitch about not being a women any longer and refused to see a plastic surgeon (yeah, right, talk about destroying your own argument here :P).
* Xiosa is out of her mind anyway as shown be recent events. Her followers double so. Imagine that brain dead fool sitting in his secret garden for example. Whenever some insects start eating his pretty little flowers he insists on not simply stomping them because life is so sacred. Instead, he sends you on an assignment to kill a herd of consumers to destill a repellant, that will make the insects starve elsewhere.
* Dakkru ... A contradiction in herself. Claims to be the goddess of death, but otherwise refuses to be true to herself and show the signs of death (like shutting up and let the living go on with their lifes).
* Black Flame ... wears bunny slippers and probably got totally lost in planning and scheming for no purpose by now.
Nobody is perfect, the PS gods double so. Neither of them is a true creator god and none truly stands above anything (especially not it's fellow deities), so it does not make much sense, why any should have true dominion over life and death (Talad almost killed Laanx, remember?). Ever thought about the possibility, that Dakkrus curse in reality is just a little souvenir, people get who have the will of escaping the realm she claimed as hers? Maybe, the gods don't bail you out of DR. Them doing so is just some PR lie, told by their priests (after all, worshippers make donations, donations pay the rent, the more worshippers a priest can gather, the more wealth/influence he gets). Ever seen a god actively helping you to get out of the DR? Me neither and considering the amount of tourist traffic in there, I doubt that any god would even want to get personally involved in the check out process. So, even if the exit gate was somehow powered all gods mysteriously working together for no obvious reason at all, there would still be enough room for any non worshipper and atheists to slip by.
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Irgendwer I do agree with you. I would like to see if you could come up with an alternative 'story' that would be more to our liking.
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I play games for the entertainement value. The entertainment value of PS is already pretty low to me, due to countless encounters with so called "roleplayers", who constantly drop out of character to lecture me in [bracketspeak] on what they consider to be in character (the idiocy here is overwhelming).
Religions in real life are a scam and I strongly oppose to them. Make it mandatory for me to follow one in PlaneShift and behave in what I would normally call idiotic ways, then the entertainment value drops even further. I don't really want to have to say "Hail Xiosa" in public once a login day, just to avoid permadeath.
First, that's unrelated. If you have a complaint on such an issue, bring it up somewhere else, please. Second, while I agree with you that having to say 'hail <insert religion>!' Or die permanently would be silly, I feel previous posts in this thread have already covered this with viable and serious alternatives. Namely, Prolix, Dajoji, and Khoridor, on the fact that not only is it an ambiguous text, there's solutions that could be implemented in the same manner, or over the top of "you don't haz religion, you die!!!111!"
As far as my character is concerned, gods do exist. Big deal, so do rocks. I don't worship rocks either and I couldn't care less about what is written in religious tracts. These were obviously not written by the gods themselves, but by worshippers who have an agenda of pushing their religion and hence the truth value of the texts is questionable at best. Even if the books were directly dictated by the deity in question, this would still not matter to me, as gods can lie too (see BF, which at least honestly admits being full of deceit). The best any god can expect from my character is a lip service and even that will only be given if it is rewarding.
See post from Donari. Your character is a weak atheist. Congrats.
Furthermore, I'd like to mention, that the PS gods are anything but almighty and infallible. They may be powerful beyond mortal means, but they are still incompetent in countless ways:
(''>.>) The point I'm trying to make here is that they are powerful, and they are flawed. That doesn't mean they are undeserving of worship. Look at the greek gods, they did all sorts of crap far worse than any cited here, and they were worshiped very heavily.
* Black Flame ... wears bunny slippers and probably got totally lost in planning and scheming for no purpose by now.
The Black Flame is far more real, and far closer than you'd think. :devil:
Nobody is perfect, the PS gods double so. Neither of them is a true creator god and none truly stands above anything (especially not it's fellow deities), so it does not make much sense, why any should have true dominion over life and death (Talad almost killed Laanx, remember?). Ever thought about the possibility, that Dakkrus curse in reality is just a little souvenir, people get who have the will of escaping the realm she claimed as hers? Maybe, the gods don't bail you out of DR. Them doing so is just some PR lie, told by their priests (after all, worshippers make donations, donations pay the rent, the more worshippers a priest can gather, the more wealth/influence he gets). Ever seen a god actively helping you to get out of the DR? Me neither and considering the amount of tourist traffic in there, I doubt that any god would even want to get personally involved in the check out process. So, even if the exit gate was somehow powered all gods mysteriously working together for no obvious reason at all, there would still be enough room for any non worshipper and atheists to slip by.
Only problem--Dakkru is the goddess of death. That means she gets dominion over life, and death. The rest of that is simply speculation on things still in development. I can't argue that without knowing if it's true or false, but it's an interesting take.
In summary, the people of Yliakum have obvious gods present. If your character chooses to ignore them, or take them lightly, then he/she/kra ought to be prepared to deal with some sort of consequence. That consequence could be anything, that text is fairly ambiguous and could be changed during a future update.
I would like to state that such a process of enforcement on religion would need to be implemented carefully, and probably won't happen anytime soon(TM). See here (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34510.0) if you would like to know what the devs are currently working on... Doesn't seem like this issue is very pressing, and it shall remain open to interpretation by players until something definitive is put into place. Alternatively, you could put more ideas on the table as to how the process works, and see what kind of feedback you get. You don't need to shoot an idea down before it's even close to thought through.
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Irgendwer I do agree with you. I would like to see if you could come up with an alternative 'story' that would be more to our liking.
Thats rather easy, once you understand "roleplay" as acting as a person and not mimicking some kind of stereotype (the later sadly being, what most consider roleplay around here). As a person, you do have an agenda, needs and wishes. This goes for PC as well as NPC. Furthermore, you should understand "myth" exactly what it is: Not a literally true story, but a story based on some event, that may or not have been happened at some time (might have been pure imagination, but was taken for real anyway) and then got heavily skewed by oral tradition (there's a nice children party game about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers).
So, lets say at some point in time, somewhere, something happened to someone. Maybe, it was even a person calling herself "Dakkru" telling Londaris something. Does that mean, that this Dakkru told him the truth? Did he understand her correctly and entirely? Did he write down the story without omitting or gloryfying parts? Appearantly not. Whatever he saw that day put a great deal of stress on his mind and impress him deeply. His text contains passages, that are up to interpretation (this threat is proof of that). He is anything but a neutral observer. He even confesses, that he lied to people before, telling them, that they only dreamed death.
Take Sharven for example. That guy is the head of the Laanx cult in Hydlaa and has a whole temple complex to maintain. Count on upkeep not being cheap. Since he does not make the impression of being inclined to actually work for it himself, he is dependant on gathering followers, who will donate money. He therefore has a stake in making people belief his stories. Do you honestly trust him (and his predecessors) to not occationally bent the truth in his favour? Here is a funny little story, about things tend to become ritual in religion: http://digitalbristol.org/members/tyndaleb/link/dec05/cat.html
If a god, decides to make a personal appearance in the midst of Hydlaa, can you say with certainty, that the god really is the god s/he claims to be and not some imposter? Thumbs up for the "Pilgrim event here". The event itself was a total bore, but the idea of letting "Xiosa" appear on Xmas to make everyone jealous with gifts and then lead the greedy folks defile nature was heavenly.
So to bring it in story form: Gods are myths. Most of what we know about them, we know from people, of whom we only have their word, that they indeed spoke to the deity in question in person. All religious texts contain at least some portion, that is pure fiction (either deliberatly placed there or due to a missunderstanding). Even those parts, that are not fiction, should be taken with a grain of salt, because it may be on the gods agenda to deceive the mortals in order to reach some goal (any BF followers here? Do you trust your god? Why?).
To direct this to the Death Realm: According to the books found in the library, Londaris was there long before Dakkru chose to reveal herself. Let's say, that Dakkru in fact is a genuine immortal being and not only some kind of personalized concept. Maybe, she started out as some very powerful mage or an extraplanar being from Dimension elsewhere. After a freak accident, involving three rubber strings, a microwave oven and a broken JuJu totem, she found herself transported into a world with a Dark crystal as a sky, a citadel and portal (all of that build by the previous owner, who is currently unavailable). Being a rather intelligent person, she might have figured, that her only way to get back home would be through that crystal. Unfortunately, it's energy is depleted (well ... it's dark, isn't it?) and the only suiteable source of energy is ... well ... you guessed it: Souls. Would seem rather natural to me, that in this case, Dakkru would curse any of the little batteries, escaping her grasp and most certainly not tell anyone the real reason for wanting people to stick around. After all, the DR in its current form does not make any sense. It makes perfect sense however, if it was originally build for an entirely different purpose that got lost, when Dakkru took over and twisted things the best she could to serve her needs.
Actually ... The more I think about it, the more appealing atheism becomes. I think, I'll play a heretic from now on. Wonder, how many /report I will get from the "roleplayers".
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Thumbs up for the "Pilgrim event here". The event itself was a total bore, but the idea of letting "Xiosa" appear on Xmas to make everyone jealous with gifts and then lead the greedy folks defile nature was heavenly.
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Actually ... The more I think about it, the more appealing atheism becomes. I think, I'll play a heretic from now on. Wonder, how many /report I will get from the "roleplayers".
You made some very valid points in your post, I don't know why you felt the need to void all of them by pissing people off with snide comments and taking potshots at the Xiosa event.
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To be honest, I would actually very much like it to be able to play atheists without much penalty in this game. Would allow me to give a whole new dimension to Nhil's cynicism :)
Basically I just wanted to be finally clear on whether or not it is at all possible to play a Black Way mage as an atheist, because traveling to the death realm is generally a part of their daily routine
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Playing an atheist in an Heroic Fantasy setting is as meaningful as playing an E.T. in a Bushido game. Or playing a janissary while refusing to play a slave. Limitations are supposed to force imagination.
Irgendwer, you may want a mythology sandwich a la Terry Pratchett, but I don't believe that is what the PS team has in mind. And you make one basic mistake: in a fictional world, gods are not myths. Ask Elric, the Gray Mouser, or even Rincewind.
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And I quote - 'Three. We gods shall no longer spare the faithless; you who do not revere a deity or follow a sacred path, you shall have no succor, and you will be folded into Me as your spirit shrivels. All who die the true death are Yliakum's gifts to Me.'
Atheism can be a sacred path. Look at secular humanism for instance.
Keep in mind that in PlaneShift, atheist is anyone who doesn't worship the gods. If you believe in the gods but worship none of them, you are an atheist.
The fact remains that all this is RP-only. In the absence of a system that measures worship, death shall be the same for everybody.
PlaneShift is a roleplaying game. All game mechanics will eventually reflect the settings.
Strong atheist
What you called strong atheism is actually OOC atheism. PlaneShift atheists believe in the gods. They just don't worship any of them in particular.
Weak atheists=People that know the gods exist but do not worship them:
These people deserve nothing but pity.
No, this is an absolutist attitude that hurts the believability of the game. It isn't an attitude that's shared by all the devs either so I don't know why you're stating it as fact.
As far as my character is concerned, gods do exist. Big deal, so do rocks.
Best comment in the thread.
I agree with Irgendwer that the gods aren't very god-like. They really just behave like super powerful wizards.
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I agree with Irgendwer that the gods aren't very god-like. They really just behave like super powerful wizards.
They are basically just that afaik. The only real 'god' is Vodul, who gave power to Laanx, etc.
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I skipped the whole discussion because of an important thing, I think has been missed:
Books not necessarily contain the truth. Londris
a) might follow a false belief or
b) simply wrote lies into his book.
The actual effect of not worshipping a god (this still is called 'atheist'), at the moment is: nothing.
I played my char for two RL years without letting him worship any god, the effect was: nothing.
'Nothing' has been chosen by settings team (I blame Xillix ;) ).
My ideas for the discussion:
- Trying to interpret an in-game book to force a change in settings is not a good idea. Rules for settings should be set up OOCly by the settings team. The characters (both players and NPCs) should react to the world and its properties, not the other way round.
- If non-worshipping will be punished in the future (I blame Xillix in advance ;) ), I propose to publish this in advance. A good in-game explanation would also be helpful.
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Maybe the actual problem is "calling them gods/deities". "We" possibly associate with "god/deity" something Xiosia, Dakkru, Talad, Laanx, etc. don't even come close to.
Hmm, putting some more thoughts into it, the "gods from the greek myths" aren't in any way perfect either. They also have flaws like jealousy.
But that would mean that the Character Creation description of Atheist doesn't fit at all
"The atheist does not look outside itself for truth.. etc.. Attracted to this faith: anti-social people,.. irrational people"
Unless the truth is "play nice and get gifts".. though I wouldn't call that worshipping but pretending and since the gods are flawed themself and everything else but "almighty", there's no way for them to see the difference.
[ maybe Arerano should suddenly start to pray to all gods.. ..after realising that truth ]
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The simple majority of all characters do not worship the gods at all.
How does this fact aid roleplaying or making the settings come to life?
Discuss:
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The simple majority of all characters do not worship the gods at all.
Says who?
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Anyone that looks in game. The majority don't have characters.
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The simple majority of all characters do not worship the gods at all.
If say 75% of all characters were PLed chars mainly, that wouldnt be surprising xD
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From the history on the PlaneShift webpage http://www.planeshift.it/history.html (http://www.planeshift.it/history.html)
All the Talad's efforts to make the Diaboli his followers failed. The Diaboli were inclined to disappear whenever someone began to discuss about religion.
Many of them - except the Diaboli - slowly gave up the faith in their previous gods to worship the god of the glyphs.
And from the races description http://www.planeshift.it/diaboli.html (http://www.planeshift.it/diaboli.html)
On the other hand, they avoid holy places as they feel uncomfortable in them. It's quite rare to meet a Diabolo inside a temple, apart from the imprisoned ones. They diligently try to avoid sacred objects: holy weapons are devastating against them.
The first quote could be interpreted that Diaboli just don't follow Talad, but maybe Laanx was later able to make them worship him/her. But the second and third quote makes this somehow unlikely. So from these quotes I conclude that nearly all Diaboli are what Donari calles "Weak atheists"...So if someone plays a Diaboli worshipping some God, spending a lot of time in temples praying and maybe even wearing some holy symbols the person plays a very exceptional Diaboli. And if I follow some opinions here in this thread this means nearly every Diaboli will die permanently. I'm sure this will lead to a lot players playing such exceptional chars for OOC reasons. But maybe I missed some important information here and the whole diaboli population converted to one of the gods recently.
And another book of Londris at least shows that is was possible for atheists to leave the death realm again some time ago (The content of the book indicates this was written before Dakkru revealed herself to Londris and the others)
From Londris's Six Falsehoods
First Falsehood: Faith in the gods of Yliakum is the only way to come back from the dead. This is completely untrue. I have seen thousands of heroic atheists walk through the portal as readily as priests of Talad and Laanx. I do not mean that it is not possible that the gods have a hand in the phenomena of the Death Realm: it just means that faith is not what saves your life. The Diaboli, sensualists that they are, even made a game of dying in strange ways when they first arrived in Yliakum. No gods were angered and the Death Realm worked for them as easily as it worked for Lemurs and Kran for centuries before. It is of note, however, that the Dark Crystal seems to have a draining effect on bodies who use the portals too often and the Diaboli have ceased the practise.
Of course this book could be a lie too, but I think if this truly happened some other tales of this must have survived too.
So this all lead to some confusion for me.
First, are nearly all Diaboli still not worshipping any god? And if they worship what happened to change their attitude.
Second, to come back to the topic of this thread, if it's true that Diaboli doesn't worship any God in Yliakum will they all die permanently now? Or is there maybe some god who finds the race useful and allows them to exit the death realm even if they don't worship him/her?
Third, wouldn't it be common knowledge among the population now if no atheist ever leaves the death realm again?
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The simple majority of all characters do not worship the gods at all.
How does this fact aid roleplaying or making the settings come to life?
Discuss:
The simple majority are either not interested in settings, to one degree or another, or simply do not devote time to "worship" their deity. I myself to not "worship" a deity in-game... but frequently part company with "May Laanx smile on you". That is just my IC way of saying "May you have the good fortune not to experience a server crash". IC pun on the fact that the server is laanx.fragnetics.com.
As to making settings come to life or roleplaying... being rather ambiguous is a good thing. It leaves things open to interpretation and IC "discussions" will take place... some more heated than others. Also, with no one true deity, it leaves options much more open for characters to do favors for more than one religious sect without facing retribution for a god "finding their lack of faith disturbing"...
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The simple majority of all characters do not worship the gods at all.
How does this fact aid roleplaying or making the settings come to life?
Discuss:
(Actually, this should be a new thread)
It helps as so far as you can be you. You don't have to hamper the actions of your character by what your deity would approve of. For example: I can hardly justify following Xiosa on one hand and use ulbernauts as sparring partners on the other, which I pretty much have to do, when my longterm goal is to become a powerful wizard.
Following a certain faith should always be optional, but if you have set your mind on bringing them to life, consider this (does not even require game mechanics): There are a couple of faith based guilds. Allow them to "register" with the "church" of their choice as a religious order (think "Jesuits" and "roman catholic church" here). Every week a registered faith would get a GM money gift. ICly, this is donation money, raised by the NPC population of Yliakum for whatever service the guild provided to the populus. If there are several rival faith guilds, they have to compete for the donation money. Greed is really something, that drives people into doing stuff.
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http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31309.0
I may have overstated a bit given those poll results . . . the poll does skew a bit given the constituency of the forums (most people who play do not vote and most who do not vote are likely to have nothing to do with religions)
Either way atheism by itself is beating two of the major religions when it is supposed to be incredibly rare and if you combine that with people playing polytheists (in no way supported by either CC or settings) these two are beating three of the major religions. . .
The question stands: How does a lack of belief in gods advance roleplay or immersion?
As to questions about Diaboli worship it is also stated in CC that many Diaboli are attracted to Xiosia.
Here Irgendwer strikes at the heart of the situation: "It helps as so far as you can be you." You shouldn't be you: Laanx is an RP server you are intended to play a role. It is stated clearly that few people are irreligious in settings from character creation on through all content. The same exact problem comes up when most people play Ylian males. . . (Take on a role please, if you want to play you, walk outside . . .)
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http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31309.0
..atheism by itself is beating two of the major religions..
Not quite, but it isn't really rare either.
However, the question is "which deity" the character favours most. "None" can also mean that they all are favoured equally.
The question stands: How does a lack of belief in gods advance roleplay or immersion?
You write about "belief", but isn't it "worshipping" you are after? A "lack of belief" can be caused by different things like some sort of "mental illness" and can very well be used for RP. I doubt that "belief" alone will advance it.
But how is someone supposed to worship the godess of nature.. or rather "so called godess of nature" if they have to realise that the connection between said godess and nature seems to be slimmer than between her and the need of fishing false worshippers by the use of gifts?
How is someone supposed to teach about the importance of balance of nature under such circumstances? I'd rather expect to see "a godess of nature" appearing to those true with the nature outside the city instead of her making some kind of show inside the city for people who possibly just came from slaying beasts in the arena for the joy of "fighting".
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It is not easy to worship the gods correctly.
Books contain some gods' biographies, and descriptions of religious hierarchies, but it is not clear who to pray to when you are a farmer, a fighter or a builder, who you thank for a birth or good weather.
I'm not even sure what Talad and Laanx are gods of.
So we go timidly with general formulas and blessings.
Dakkru is much easier to talk about. Although I still hear nothing about afterlife anywhere.
Either way atheism by itself is beating two of the major religions when it is supposed to be incredibly rare and if you combine that with people playing polytheists (in no way supported by either CC or settings) these two are beating three of the major religions. . .
I keep reading that mistake: There is only 1 religion. Several gods, but only 1 religion. Inside of it, there may be various temples, sects, rites and such, but people believe in ALL the gods.
I don't even understand why it's all about believing or not. Let a character pretend that 1 of the gods doesn't exist and see what happens. Now some people go straight from all to 0.
Neither don't I understand why people want to tell us that the gods are just ulbermages, aliens or mega-computers from a distant future. This is also irrelevant. The basis of the setting is that there are gods. Period. This is a fantasy game, WITH gods.
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And another book of Londris at least shows that is was possible for atheists to leave the death realm again some time ago (The content of the book indicates this was written before Dakkru revealed herself to Londris and the others)
From Londris's Six Falsehoods
First Falsehood: Faith in the gods of Yliakum is the only way to come back from the dead. This is completely untrue. I have seen thousands of heroic atheists walk through the portal as readily as priests of Talad and Laanx. I do not mean that it is not possible that the gods have a hand in the phenomena of the Death Realm: it just means that faith is not what saves your life. The Diaboli, sensualists that they are, even made a game of dying in strange ways when they first arrived in Yliakum. No gods were angered and the Death Realm worked for them as easily as it worked for Lemurs and Kran for centuries before. It is of note, however, that the Dark Crystal seems to have a draining effect on bodies who use the portals too often and the Diaboli have ceased the practise.
Of course this book could be a lie too, but I think if this truly happened some other tales of this must have survived too.
Thanks for reminding me, Aiwendil :)
First, are nearly all Diaboli still not worshipping any god? And if they worship what happened to change their attitude.
In public, my char worships Xiosia right now. In his sick mind, he hates all so-called gods and might even plot against them. He also questions their divinity and thinks they are just former mortal beings with too much magic powers.
Second, to come back to the topic of this thread, if it's true that Diaboli doesn't worship any God in Yliakum will they all die permanently now?
No. Not from what I know.
Or is there maybe some god who finds the race useful and allows them to exit the death realm even if they don't worship him/her?
Good question: Does a character have to worship a god to get support?
Third, wouldn't it be common knowledge among the population now if no atheist ever leaves the death realm again?
Agreed, a sudden change of this would cause inconsistencies.
Either way atheism by itself is beating two of the major religions when it is supposed to be incredibly rare and if you combine that with people playing polytheists (in no way supported by either CC or settings) these two are beating three of the major religions. . .
The question stands: How does a lack of belief in gods advance roleplay or immersion?
I play an egocentric, paranoid, rebellious character. Almost all of his actions are based on his assumption that the so-called-gods exist and are worshipped because of their invisibility which is interpreted as divinity.
Stupid question part:
What is CC?
Is athetist a synonym for atheist?
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CC is character creation.
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The question stands: How does a lack of belief in gods advance roleplay or immersion?
Surely all know/believe the gods exist in planeshift. We choose to worship them or not .
Tuathanach believes in the gods and raised as a follower of Talad, but since lost faith in talad (due to events as a teenager) and has not chosen to worship another god.
Tuathanach is a believer in gods and not a follower.
I skipped the whole discussion because of an important thing, I think has been missed:
Books not necessarily contain the truth. Londris
a) might follow a false belief or
b) simply wrote lies into his book.
The actual effect of not worshipping a god (this still is called 'atheist'), at the moment is: nothing.
I played my char for two RL years without letting him worship any god, the effect was: nothing.
'Nothing' has been chosen by settings team (I blame Xillix ;) ).
Going back to the main topic I agree with Orgunwukh. the main discussion point should be more about the validity of the book not whether Talad, laanx, xiosia etc are gods (realistic or not)
@ Orgunwukh c) Londris was insane
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Here is what you need to do Xillix: Create shrines for each of the gods and for every day that a character does not service the shrine all skills/stats are reduced by one. If the shrine of the god chosen in character creation is serviced daily skills and stats will remain unharmed. Should they be reduced they can be regained by servicing the shrine more frequently. Should the character not service the shrine of their particular god but rather a different god their skills will remain but stats will still be reduced. If all stats get reduced to zero through non servicing shrines perma-death occurs.
As for the current situation would you be happy if I declared that all the time when I am not on-line with my characters they are praying to god x in a non-existent temple? Really it comes down to how pious do you want worshippers to be? Some of the faithful cannot take a step without praising their god, others want to actually have a life of their own and carry their faith silently outside the temple. How onerous do you want religion to be?
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What if you aren't online daily?
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That would imply you had a life that is not Planeshift, which is unacceptable.
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If you want to bring OOC into this... the reason Atheism is so popular is one, or a combination of, three things:
1. The player is either atheist or agnostic... [EDIT] AND can't bring themselves to "worship" any "god"...
2. The player is religious OOC AND is refusing to "worship" another "god"... even a made-up god in a fantasy setting...
3. The player is simply rebellious and wants to "go against the flow"...
Seriously... people have an aversion to "worshiping" in-game for one of those reason... As to IC reasons... I hate to say it... but more than 50% of the people I have gamed with over the years (table-top, BBS, MUD... yes, I am showing my age here...) lack the creativity to actually play a character that is significantly different from their OOC nature.
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[I think many players choose athetist in creation, because many wish to see more about the religions and gods after they come in game. A later chreated character may indeed reflect that choice or chioces. As far as religion and/or belief that is something that is instilled into us as we are raised. And not limited to those teaching as we all search through life in our way to seek the answers of our own questions. Many beliefs may change by a single event, a group of friendship, marrage, or even from relocation into another comunity.]
[ I do not except the fact that there are true athetists among those (characters) living in Yliakum. I my view, if you choose to leave the death realm in the first place it is the only way you can recieve the gift of renewed life. That is exceptance. to state shortly after " I am cursed.' ," I hate this curse" Is a sign that you have complied to the basis of that belief. Or you wouls still be in the Dr playing die or simply permantently dead.]
[The descriptions of the gods and to their traits are present in the history, and some in-game. It is a base outline on the creation of the world, its peoples and some explaination of that witch is. It also states in a not so clear way that the peoples were not forced to choose or except one over the other. The wining of such faith is left to the gods to fight over and/or win over each other. ]
[ Religion is a practice of belief, not the belief of the gods themselves. An individual could go through life believing in a god, but never once voice that belief or act in the practice of it. That doesn't mean that they would be unfaithful to that belief. Religions are the rituals and practice of the peoples themselves to express thier beliefs as a way of life. Two different communities may worship the same god, but in two different views and standards. A north Hydlaa view would be slighty different then that of east Hydlaa on the belief of Laanx. But, to an outside the same in comparision by the close proximity of their locations.]
[ I believe that the outlines of the gods were left vague intentionaly. Regardless of the fact that the game is in developement. This allows religious structure to develope within those breif guidelines by the very people who are to practice those regilious beliefs. It also would make sence being this is a RP game. The openess of that allows characters to discuss, argue and/or act accordingly to their views. I like the freedom of that for my character.]
[I also feel that the settings team does not need to spell out the entire religion of a god or the practice of it. Though I'm more then sure they could, or will add more later. But what is needed is player interaction in-game on the religions themselves, by use of events, books or even by word of mouth by pratice. Some players have started to do just that, some already have. Whether or not that view is excepted by the population can be done by spreading the word and the teaching of the practice.
Besides, the gods are there. If they are displeased, I'm more then sure they will take a second out of their immortality to let you know]
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But that would mean that the Character Creation description of Atheist doesn't fit at all
"The atheist does not look outside itself for truth.. etc.. Attracted to this faith: anti-social people,.. irrational people"
Absolutely. I actually posted a revised version of the Character Creation description. The description of Atheism as it is now seems to be an injection of personal opinion into the settings -- it doesn't have much to do with PlaneShift.
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It is not merely personal opinion it was edited by many people discussed among the devs.
Perhaps we should remove the option to be atheist entirely discuss:
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For me, at character creation, I didn't know enough about settings to really choose anything with any real knowledge. What I would prefer, since atheism is supposed to be rare... and not to pigeon hole someone into having to choose at character creation... simply change the option to undecided for the time being. Atheism is not really a good term to describe what is meant in-game.
[EDIT] What does choosing a deity at character creation actually do for you? Does it give you faction? stats? skills? Does this decision make your character better/worse when they come into Y'liakum for the first time? I am not worried about fairness here... I am simply curious if the choice has ramifications in-game and follows you as a part of your character.
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Maybe we shouldn't use the term "Religion".
In real life, religion is bound to "belief" but since all are meant to believe IC it must be something different.
Maybe we shouldn't call the "gods" gods either..
What about "Ideology" instead of Religion?
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There are dieties. It isn't an ideology.
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The simple majority of all characters do not worship the gods at all.
How does this fact aid roleplaying or making the settings come to life?
Discuss:
"All that is not forbidden is allowed" vs "All that is not allowed is forbidden". Does Atheism hurt roleplaying? If there are going to be measures taken against it, it must first be shown to be a problem.
In response to Arerano, a while ago (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=29670.msg391749#msg391749) I proposed a new description of Atheist for the character generator:
The Old version:
Despite the obvious presence of Gods and Goddesses throughout Yliakum, some deny that these beings are worthy of worship. Most people consider atheists foolish at best and a condemned object of pity at worst. Athests will bear the worst effects of the penalty for dying since no god will grant them succor from it. The atheist does not look outside itself for truth. People attracted to this faith: People who have had a bad experience with religion, anti-social people, staunch individualists, and the irrational.
The New version:
Despite the obvious advantages of worshiping a god or goddess, some deny that these beings are worthy of worship. Many people consider atheists foolish at best and condemned objects of pity at worst. Atheists will bear the worst effects of the penalty for dying since no god will grant them succor from it. Atheists do not look towards higher beings to answer questions of meaning, self worth, and purpose. People attracted to Atheism: Those who feel the gods have wronged them, stubborn people, and the young.
Neither don't I understand why people want to tell us that the gods are just ulbermages, aliens or mega-computers from a distant future. This is also irrelevant. The basis of the setting is that there are gods. Period. This is a fantasy game, WITH gods.
It's not that simple. Vodul, for instance, is a god that our characters weren't supposed to know about. (That might have change.)
The gods may exist, but whether or not our characters are aware of them is a different question.
If you want to bring OOC into this... the reason Atheism is so popular is one, or a combination of, three things:
1. The player is either atheist or agnostic... [EDIT] AND can't bring themselves to "worship" any "god"...
2. The player is religious OOC AND is refusing to "worship" another "god"... even a made-up god in a fantasy setting...
3. The player is simply rebellious and wants to "go against the flow"...
Seriously... people have an aversion to "worshiping" in-game for one of those reason... As to IC reasons... I hate to say it... but more than 50% of the people I have gamed with over the years (table-top, BBS, MUD... yes, I am showing my age here...) lack the creativity to actually play a character that is significantly different from their OOC nature.
I also think people don't like being coerced. That's another motivating factor. (My character worships Laanx, for the record.)
Perhaps we should remove the option to be atheist entirely discuss:
A move like that would have to have justification.
I think picking your religion shouldn't be an option at all at character creation, since characters are known to change religions, and people often want to learn more about each religion from in-game content before making a choice.
What about "Ideology" instead of Religion?
Doesn't work. I can agree with a god on everything, and still not worship it.
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duplicate
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duplicate
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lol, triple post. No wonder your count is so high! :P
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Yeah, wtf. ??? Maybe some posts were deleted. ???
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There are dieties. It isn't an ideology.
*deities.
However:
deity
Etymology: From Latin deus ‘god’ + -ī.
-> From Proto-Indo-European *deywós (“‘god/that which belongs to heaven’”), vrddhi derivation from *dyew- (“‘sky, heaven’”), whence also Latin diēs, and the first part of Iu-ppiter. Indo-European cognates include Sanskrit देव (devá) and Old Prussian deywis.
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Ideologies do not have gods.
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CC is character creation.
Thank you. Added it here: http://pswiki.xordan.com/index.php/Players_Guide/Glossary#CC
Religion is a practice of belief, not the belief of the gods themselves. An individual could go through life believing in a god, but never once voice that belief or act in the practice of it. That doesn't mean that they would be unfaithful to that belief. Religions are the rituals and practice of the peoples themselves to express thier beliefs as a way of life.
:thumbup: Nice explanation. Since noone can judge anyone's belief we should restrict ourselves to talk about religion (in a practical sense).
It is not merely personal opinion it was edited by many people discussed among the devs.
Perhaps we should remove the option to be atheist entirely discuss:
I think, the term 'atheism' is causing the confusion, since it cannot be interpreted in game, as it is interpreted in real life. I propose to use 'not practising' instead. This would use the separation of religion and belief as jaycol proposed, and leave the player the freedom to choose their char's attitudes. Mythryndel's proposal of 'undecided' is another idea.
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While we are on the topic of ingame religion should there not be an option for those who wish to worship a number of god's equally?
That might possibly remove some of the atheism problems, as i have noticed a number of supposedly atheist characters who have chosen atheism as they did not want to choose a god. They werent sure what to do, there wasnt an option for "Undivided Worship" and so they saw Atheism as the closest alternative.
The CC option makes people choose, before they know what they are getting into. Either change the selections in CC to reflect the sort of mindset peole in Yliakum are supposed to have, OR remove it entirely and add more religion related quests that will sowly guie a person along the path of a religion
EG. Lokter gets a quest from a Laanx priest to find some artifacts, upon completion of this quest it removes the possibility of doing a Black Flame qust for the same reward.
This will be a lot of work from settings, But it will help people get into religion slowly, for those who want to be an Atheist thenthey will have to follow a different, more difficult route to get the same reward. this could be justified IC by saying the religious Characters had the blessings of their selected Diety.
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Characters are able to worship all the gods equally, but the gods won't be impressed.
Characters are able to believe gods don't exist, but they'll be treated by society as crazy.
Characters are able to worship none of the gods, but they'll be treated by society as evil.
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The problem remains: how to distinguish between a pious and a religious character through mechanics? Or even how to spot a liar, although the latter is not so important.
Current quests don't fit that purpose, because working for a temple (as in recovering an artefact) doesn't mean one follows their rites; it's often just for the material reward. Faction points reflect a personal relationship with a temple, with the priests and their followers.
On another hand, faction points may very well be enough, if what matters is the appearance of piety, not the piety itself. After all, the temples are intermediates to the gods, ensuring that worship is done properly and enough. Gods are probably not keeping individuals under personal scrutiny. Not even close: a Black Flame follower can pass as a worshiper of something else, and gets away with it.
In the same way, people who insult a god will be dealt with by the religious crowd, if not by society directly, for their foolishness constitutes a danger to all. The temple will fulfill its duty as divine intermediate into worship affairs. If lousy worship spreads to a large scale, an entire city maybe wiped out by a resentful god.
The intermediate role works both ways. Priests worship in the name of the people, leaving them the time to do physical work. People's most common form of participation is sacrifice, often achieved by donations of money and goods. That leaves supported priests time to worship for the people, but most of the sacrifice is given to the gods (if not, in this case, the gods would notice and not be happy). So worship can also be checked by a donation mechanism, and all temples can be donated to.
Whatever way it's done, the favorite god is out of character creation, except for priests. Maybe something like this would replace it:
- I'm a priest of Talad
- I'm a priest of [...]
- I'm a priest of Lannx
- I'm a small village priest and take care of the rites to all the gods.
- I'm not a priest.
The latter doesn't force people to choose how much they worship per day or per year. It is left to RP, and to evolve.
As for the original topic of the DR, if you implement a donation system, or a prayer system, or whatever, that counts for the petitioning. And if someone never worships in any way, maybe give that fool a small chance that the portals won't work for him. Eeeever, ah ah. Stuck for good in the DR, or true death; with warnings at character creation, of course.
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Personally, I think the best solution is to remove religion from the mechanics of the game. Direct experience with the gods, even subtle directness, should be extremely rare and special and never entirely certain. If religion is kept to the lore of the game, delivered through books, NPC dialogue, and quests, religion will remain as something people can use to develop their characters. But things would be a lot smoother if there wasn't any focus on enforcing worship and punishing the absence of worship. Instead, gods would simply be "out there" and would only be thought of as objects of worship by a minority of the populace. The gods don't have an obvious and direct role in the affairs of mortals in the game, and the devs have stated that they don't want the gods to do anything like appear in the plaza or prove their existence or anything like that.
Really, the Octarchy should be opposed to worship of religion. Worship implies the redirection of resources, and the Octarchy has been written to have a supreme value for efficiency and militarism.
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Really, the Octarchy should be opposed to worship of religion. Worship implies the redirection of resources, and the Octarchy has been written to have a supreme value for efficiency and militarism.
Now this is the epitome of nonsense.
Since when is the octarchy an atheist government?
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one day advancing in one may well mean diminishing in all others . . .
Didn't you all want a ROLE to play . . .
Didn't you want to have a say in how the world advanced . . .
I know arerano and ligh sure as heck have an opinion . . .
Divorcing mechanics and faith isn't the direction Settings embraces at all.
Don't you want choices that matter? In quests? In roleplays?
Alas, always support the status quo, it's so safe, so comfortable.
Count your beans, file your taxes, the gods have larger matters to attend.
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how can i find out the religion of my character? I hit the "Quick" button and started with an empty character description...
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Search within thyself, child.
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Weird. I had thought I had replied to Xillix's well-worded post already.
The role of the non-worshiper is still a role, and characters can still worship gods even if others do not. The settings would have to be adjusted in order for religion to not be experienced through the mechanics of the game (by perma-death etc), but the settings are in development along with the rest of the game. Players do want choices, and allowing non-worship would actually increase the variety of choices players can make in making their characters.
Alas, always support the status quo, it's so safe, so comfortable.
I'm confused. I think people are pushing for changes. The status quo means no change.
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We allow non worship now, how is that change?
(your post was deleted through efforts to remove the double post)
Even if mechanics support permadeath for atheists one can still roleplay an atheist . . . Just not for long.
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how can i find out the religion of my character? I hit the "Quick" button and started with an empty character description...
Religion is a choice you can make in character creation or once in-game. The important thing is to be consistent so your RP benefits from it. You as a player should think about which deity your character would worship and follow the guidelines of each religion. You can read them in character creation. If you picked a religion in CC, and you change your mind, you can pick a new one in-game but stick to it once you do this.
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We allow non worship now, how is that change?
You do but you don't. It's written into the settings that non worshipers are fools, objects of pity, condemned, anti-social, irrational, individualist, and more. Since everyone has to abide by the settings, it means that if you want to be a non worshiper, you must also be everything I listed.
It's not just a matter of societal values either, since the settings are absolutist in their wordings: "The atheist does not look outside itself for truth" etcetera.
Having non worshiping characters suffer perma-death should they die is also a way of effectively banning non worship, since pretty much every character will die at some point unless they break the law by not training in weapons.
These are the settings, and the mechanics will catch up eventually. So the change would be a more lenient attitude towards non worshiping characters through a change in the fundamentals of the game (the settings being fundamental).
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For each religion we present some options for the types of people who might follow that (dis?)belief structure, one might follow it for these reasons or another, these are just examples.
Permadeath isn't a ban it isn't even a discouragement. Permadeath for atheists makes atheism rarer, sure, but that's sort of the goal. How many of UTM or other people's roleplaying oriented characters have never been in the death realm?
The settings principle at play here is that it is divine intervention (for an as yet unknown reason) that allows people to beat death.
Even the fact that players can escape death is kind of a great argument against atheism in the world of planeshift.
Magic is real, given by the gods, and gods certainly touch the mortal world at least once a generation.
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Why should the Gods look kindly on those who ignore them?
Why should Settings?
For that matter, why do (some) players think they should be coddled even when they die? ->Re: all the "Death is too hard!" / "Ditch the death penalty!" threads.
Anyone remember 16-bit games? NES, Genesis, heck, even up to the PS1 and N64, I think. Adventure and action games had a set number of lives, usually. You die, you are [dead]. Maybe you are good and earn an "extra life" or a "continue." To survive, continue, you are either very careful or very good or both.
Somewhere along the line, that changed. You died? Aww too bad, we'll just respawn you at the nearest checkpoint, with a 15-sec invincibility. Infinitely.
Or more to the RP flavor, table-top RPGs. What happens when you die [then]? Typically, unless you've got yourself a conveniently located cleric or some resurrection sources handy, that's it. Character is dead, make a new one. Rejoin the party at the DM's will.
My point is, games both digital and non (and PS draws from both, it seems) have a long history of making you suffer the consequences of mortality. Yet somehow, because of the fairly recent trend of infinite lives/respawns, players are under the impression that death is a minor setback, a nuisance. THIS IS WRONG.
Be grateful that death is not the end for you all.
Just those who choose to ignore the gods.
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Permadeath isn't a ban it isn't even a discouragement. Permadeath for atheists makes atheism rarer, sure, but that's sort of the goal. How many of UTM or other people's roleplaying oriented characters have never been in the death realm?
What if you want to roleplay a fighter? More to the point, why pick on atheists for permadeath? Non-roleplayers will simply adopt a pet god in order to escape permadeath, so targeting atheists for permadeath will do little to foster a better roleplaying environment.
The settings principle at play here is that it is divine intervention (for an as yet unknown reason) that allows people to beat death.
The mechanics are subject to settings principles, but the settings are subject to design principles.
Wasn't the divine intervention bit introduced to discourage non worship? I feel like we're confusing the cause and the effect.
Even the fact that players can escape death is kind of a great argument against atheism in the world of planeshift.
No, I don't think so. PS Atheists believe in the gods, they just don't worship them. Even then, escaping death is proof for magic more than proof for gods.
Magic is real, given by the gods, and gods certainly touch the mortal world at least once a generation.
May I ask how that connects to the discussion?
Why should the Gods look kindly on those who ignore them?
It depends. If the gods are all petty, mean, and shallow, then you might have a point.
For that matter, why do (some) players think they should be coddled even when they die? ->Re: all the "Death is too hard!" / "Ditch the death penalty!" threads.
I think people just want the game to be fun, and different players have different expectations for the game. There are also technical issues with the death realm connected to visibility and movement.
Anyone remember 16-bit games? NES, Genesis, heck, even up to the PS1 and N64, I think. Adventure and action games had a set number of lives, usually. You die, you are [dead]. Maybe you are good and earn an "extra life" or a "continue." To survive, continue, you are either very careful or very good or both.
Somewhere along the line, that changed. You died? Aww too bad, we'll just respawn you at the nearest checkpoint, with a 15-sec invincibility. Infinitely.
Absolutely! But why target non worshipers?
My point is, games both digital and non (and PS draws from both, it seems) have a long history of making you suffer the consequences of mortality. Yet somehow, because of the fairly recent trend of infinite lives/respawns, players are under the impression that death is a minor setback, a nuisance. THIS IS WRONG.
I think the effort and history that goes into a PlaneShift character makes it a different thing. When Mario dies, you just restart the game. That's not how it works here. When a high impact character permanently leaves the game, his or her absence is felt.
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Maybe you should just make perma-death a function of character time spent in game and alter that length by doing favors for the gods, either through game mechanics or gm event participation.
It would not even need to be specific open events where everyone has the chance to participate. The petition system could be adapted for prayers to the gods and the gods demands for the petitioner. A standard set of tasks could be developed to semi-automate this or in some instances the gm responding to the petition could be creative.
In this way the gods could have their presence felt without actually having to appear in person. Atheists could petition whichever god they like but their tasks would be more arduous and the rewards smaller. Of course this would requires some way to track current beliefs and it is the programmatic lack of this which is the main problem with the whole religion business.
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Maybe you should just make perma-death a function of character time spent in game and alter that length by doing favors for the gods, either through game mechanics or gm event participation.
This is a powerleveling solution. When you make roleplaying something that you can powerlevel or farm, powerlevelers will just powerlevel or farm it. Roleplay will suffer as a result since the majority of people roleplaying will have no interest in roleplaying apart from the rewards such as items etc.
In this way the gods could have their presence felt without actually having to appear in person.
There are buildings and books and orders and histories that make the presence of the gods felt.
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Maybe you should just make perma-death a function of character time spent in game and alter that length by doing favors for the gods, either through game mechanics or gm event participation.
This is a powerleveling solution. When you make roleplaying something that you can powerlevel or farm, powerlevelers will just powerlevel or farm it. Roleplay will suffer as a result since the majority of people roleplaying will have no interest in roleplaying apart from the rewards such as items etc.
Time spent online - time spent training = time definitely not spent for praying.
;D
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Ah so you think that role players should be able to independently decide what happens to their characters and game considerations should not affect them? Forgive me if I am wrong but that sounds to me like what you are saying Zanzibar
Arerano so your training gets done in endeavours mandated by the gods, you gain credit for practice and credit for your soul at the same time. Where is the problem with that?
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Forgive me if I am wrong but that sounds to me like what you are saying Zanzibar
I forgive you. :love:
Arerano so your training gets done in endeavours mandated by the gods, you gain credit for practice and credit for your soul at the same time. Where is the problem with that?
It depends on what kind of game you want PlaneShift to be. >o)
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I won't respond point by point quoting you, as I have said in the past people can read and follow an argument without the argument being quoted point by point.
If an atheist wants to play a fighter good for them perhaps they'll be the best in the world because they actually fear death. Atheists aren't being picked on at all. Quite the contrary, they are being left alone.
The game is a marriage of mechanics and settings. "We" aren't confusing anything. Divine intervention is the cause of survival, atheists get only what they earn from the gods, in this case nothing.
The fact that gods require worship to grant passage through the realm of death is a great argument against atheism, atheists going poof when they die is a testament to the wrongheadedness of irreligious attitudes in PS. Ps gods believe in atheists, they simply reciprocate: nothing for nothing.
It is pretty clear to me that magic and the palpable presence of the gods enters into the discussion for this reason: People bringing their earthly attitudes about faith into the game is OOC. Most of the arguments against what is perceived as a radical shift in how atheists are treated are entirely otherworldly in the context of planeshift. Diaboli and Klyros notwithstanding. Diaboli shy away from religions with hierarchical structures not faith itself. Klyros refuse to be forced to worship a specific god.
The gods are neither petty mean or shallow (as a whole, though in fact specific gods may be), only an atheist would think so or argue in this way. They are transactional.
I am open to the discussion but I am not being convinced in the slightest to alter my view as of yet.
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I won't respond point by point quoting you, as I have said in the past people can read and follow an argument without the argument being quoted point by point.
Sorry, it's a habit of mine. I've often been requested by people to quote the exact text I'm responding to. It helps me organize my posts so I'll keep on doing it if that's ok.
If an atheist wants to play a fighter good for them perhaps they'll be the best in the world because they actually fear death.
It's not that an atheist would want to play a fighter -- it's that a player would want to play an atheist. The player may very well be a theist.
Atheists aren't being picked on at all. Quite the contrary, they are being left alone.
I thought you said that the perma-death and other consequences are meant to discourage atheists? I think you said something like "Isn't that the point?"
The game is a marriage of mechanics and settings. "We" aren't confusing anything. Divine intervention is the cause of survival, atheists get only what they earn from the gods, in this case nothing.
But the settings are that way because you wrote them that way. You can change the settings where it makes sense to do so.
The fact that gods require worship to grant passage through the realm of death is a great argument against atheism, atheists going poof when they die is a testament to the wrongheadedness of irreligious attitudes in PS. Ps gods believe in atheists, they simply reciprocate: nothing for nothing.
It's proof that non worship has dire consequences, but you called it proof in favour of the gods' existence... the existence of gods isn't in question, only whether or not any of them are worthy of worship (from the point of view of an atheist character. Characters who follow a particular god have obviously found an answer to the question). Still, it begs the question: Can worship out of coercion be considered worship? And does the roleplay environment benefit from this?
It is pretty clear to me that magic and the palpable presence of the gods enters into the discussion for this reason: People bringing their earthly attitudes about faith into the game is OOC. Most of the arguments against what is perceived as a radical shift in how atheists are treated are entirely otherworldly in the context of planeshift. Diaboli and Klyros notwithstanding. Diaboli shy away from religions with hierarchical structures not faith itself. Klyros refuse to be forced to worship a specific god.
Sure, but we're talking about the IC sense of atheism, not the OOC sense of atheism which we all agree doesn't work with the settings. The bit on Diaboli and Klyros isn't obvious from reading the settings - a revision should be made to include that information and revise contradicting statements.
The gods are neither petty mean or shallow (as a whole, though in fact specific gods may be), only an atheist would think so or argue in this way. They are transactional.
I don't see why only an atheist would argue that way. If you have the chance to help someone and you don't -- if you have the chance to rescue someone from death, and it would take no effort on your part, and you don't -- then that speaks of a flaw in character.
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There is no coercion, you forget, a lot of people never come back from the death realm if atheists are among them so be it.
Again fundamentally you are bringing real world sensibilities and sensations into an entirely alien world, that hurts immersion.
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There is no coercion, you forget, a lot of people never come back from the death realm if atheists are among them so be it.
What word would you use instead of coercion?
Again fundamentally you are bringing real world sensibilities and sensations into an entirely alien world, that hurts immersion.
Where specifically?
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The argument has broken down.
Ask yourself if you are arguing for the sake of it or if you see some tangible benefit to atheists in the game beyond your own secular humanism.
I wouldn't call nature taking its course the same as watching someone drown, so I don't see coercion
The entirety of your argument is based real world values and doesn't concern itself very much at all with the settings of the game.
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The argument has broken down.
You made an ambiguous comment and I asked for clarification, I don't know if that's a break down. ???
Ask yourself if you are arguing for the sake of it or if you see some tangible benefit to atheists in the game beyond your own secular humanism.
None of my characters are atheist.
The entirety of your argument is based real world values and doesn't concern itself very much at all with the settings of the game.
Ok, this helps to clarify what you were trying to say. You weren't talking about any specific points, you were making a blanket statement.
I've looked at the settings and I think there's room for improvement. The real world value is my value for PlaneShift. I want to see it improve over time and reach its potential. Who doesn't want contradictions to be removed from the settings?
A few other things, like the gods being petty, are just observations based on the settings themselves.
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If anyone else has anything to say I am more than willing to hear your input.
Nothing said thus far has swayed my perceptions about how to proceed.
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I may have missed the response to my inquiry about religion and our characters in all the bickering about real world atheism and PS atheism... but how does mechanics know what religion I am? Is it faction? Is it a flag in a database?
Also... I stand by my point about RL intruding on PS where players want to be atheists. They hold very strong beliefs in the real world, and they are demanding those same beliefs (or lack thereof) be implemented in-game as well. This is just one of many topics where players feel that RL should qual PS... martial arts, religion, same-sex marriage, etc... Sorry... but PS != RL folks. I don't want to sound harsh per se... but as much as a handful want to cram settings down peoples throats... and demand that they stay within settings... walk the walk here people. Stop trying to take it piecemeal as it fits your personal feelings.
Why is everyone so dead set that they HAVE to play a atheist character? Why not try some creativity and play something else? You (collectively those that are posting here) seem to feel that choosing a religion limits your ability to RP... how does it do that exactly?
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Answering only the mechanics question: Right now factions are recorded, in future implementation it will be a flag in the DB that is alterable by factions. So an atheist could "find god" if they could stay alive long enough to do it ;)
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Without much explanation, perhaps it can be extracted from what was posted so far:
How about merely varying the Curse according to the belief? For the way to vary it there are certainly quite some options. Without many Faction Points at all, the Curse could be at a minimum (like Newbies wouldnt have such a hard time), while chars with kinda equally shared Factions on all the gods may have the worst Curse (and as in meaningless questing, or say atheism). For chars with Factions for one certain god mainly, minimize the Curse to some degree. Variations of the Curse can be percentages of levels decreased over more or less time.
Atheists may even have levels decreased irrevocably (with the chance to level up again as usual though).
However, the main issue and problem I see is, to determine the individual belief. But maybe Faction Points can be of use here.
I am not sure though if the game's current state allows such a tough feature at this time.
Mechanically determining praying or worshipping time I think is quite useless, people would just run to the altar, hit a shorty once a day and move on doing whatever. That's nothing to do with roleplaying belief, but appears to me as just another point to "PL".
PS:
[..]but as much as a handful want to cram settings down peoples throats... and demand that they stay within settings[..]
I think if everyone would play the game PlaneShift the way it is meant to be, there was no need to "cram settings down peoples throat". To put it to an extreme: If anyone wants to play a GI using his M16, I am going to remark there are setting or will ignore the person. If anyone is coming around and claims to be the King of Yliakum, I might likely do the same. Of course there has to be some tolerance, but at the end PS has a Setting to be respected. You play the game, so play it in accordance with it.
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I think if everyone would play the game PlaneShift the way it is meant to be, there was no need to "cram settings down peoples throat". To put it to an extreme: If anyone wants to play a GI using his M16, I am going to remark there are setting or will ignore the person. If anyone is coming around and claims to be the King of Yliakum, I might likely do the same. Of course there has to be some tolerance, but at the end PS has a Setting to be respected. You play the game, so play it in accordance with it.
Hear, hear.
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I think myth was complaining more about people cherry-picking the settings and trying to cram their interpretations into the game whether they fit or not.
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Mechanically determining praying or worshipping time I think is quite useless, people would just run to the altar, hit a shorty once a day and move on doing whatever. That's nothing to do with roleplaying belief, but appears to me as just another point to "PL".
How is regurgitating npc's standard blessings, whatever they are ... "light your path" ... via shortcut any better? At least if there is a shrine or something for the players to service, candles to light, flowers to arrange or whatever then it serves to bring the community together as people will meet their co-believers at these locations and can play it up. A lot of the lesser lights will just pay the lip service and never visit the temples or priests and still claim to be pious. Religion has generally required sacrifice from the laity and in many cases more from the priesthood. Laanx bless you makes a fine toast in the tavern but does not have much to do with faith.
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How is regurgitating npc's standard blessings, whatever they are ... "light your path" ... via shortcut any better?
Yeah sorry, I was imprecise, not refering to such vacuities at all. Was regarding ideas brought up, to sort of approach an altar, perform some action at it which would kick your "belief-counter" up, and again you had some specific time left until you had to "worship" again.
[..]to bring the community together as people will meet their co-believers at these locations and can play it up
Like the laanx temple or the magic garden - I do not see any need to enforce such by mechanics since people already do that (like the Daughters of Xiosia for instance).
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I have never seen people in the temple pews, I see the occasional person talking to sharven but most of the people who go into the temple leave via the dungeon. Prior to Xiosias reappearance recently few people went to the garden other than to talk to jardet or raid his garden before it became un-pickable. Perhaps I am just not around those places at the right times.
Actually I was think of some kind of mechanic that would take some time akin to hammering a blade and not just pay your money get your benefit. Shrines could be throughout the lands and more inaccessible ones could give greater benefit but roadside one could be available for frequent travellers. Say it was traditional that x shrine accepted y donation and y comes from another part of the land. People would have an excuse to make pilgrimages, guilds could hire out as guards and so on.
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Xillix, your interpretation of what I was trying to say was spot-on.
While it would be another chore to do in-game, making an offering of some kind makes the most sense to me for long-term implementation. I can be a nice guy and help out someone by running errands without having any care in the world what deity he/she follows. I can see how I would gain faction ( I read this as "favorable reputation" ) in the eyes of a deities followers, but not necessarily gain me favor in the eyes of the deity him/herself by doing errands, but giving of my own belongings/time shows reverence/deference to a specific deity.
*shrugs* Just my 2 trias.
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Mythryndel, that's along the lines of what I wrote earlier. I agree with you, and with Prolix.
This is for Average Joe to worship however, and I still would like the possibility of playing priests. We can play theologians, and discuss as much as we want, but priests don't only talk; they have things to do.
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Yep these kinds of things are ideal and in accordance with our intent.
The idea is to create atmosphere.
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Instead of Permadeath. Might we consider the option to of which God we worship before leaving the death realm. The curse being reset by the choice of which God is selected. Meaning each choice would have a slighly different effect. If Atheist is chosen the character could respawn anywhere randomly to include the sky, the begining of the death realm. Or just to the begining of the death realm to allow them time to reconsider the question.
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Also... I stand by my point about RL intruding on PS where players want to be atheists. They hold very strong beliefs in the real world, and they are demanding those same beliefs (or lack thereof) be implemented in-game as well.
I think you're confusion the real life definition of atheism with the PS definition of atheism. PS atheism is simply non worship.
Why is everyone so dead set that they HAVE to play a atheist character?
Myth, the poll Xillix conducted showed that only 14% of respondents play an atheist as their main. None of my characters are atheists.
The idea is to create atmosphere.
I think the question is how this end connects to the means being enacted?
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Create a skill called 'faith'.
If you use /pray, the character trains the skill and reduces the duration of Dakkru's curse (if present). One could reduce the curse duration by praying a lot after exiting death realm. This also makes sense for a faithful person after having spent time in this horrible place. Also, faithful persons will train their skills by praying. Maybe the duration needed to finish a prayer should be shortened with higher faith skills. The amount of curse reduction could also be affected, but this is difficult to balance.
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Questions: Who do you pray to reduce the curse? And who do you thank for getting out of the DR?
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@zanzibar: I'm not the one confusing things here. I am just observing people throwing a fit about how they don't want to be forced to do something in-game. I am simply positing why I believe people are so reluctant to follow this aspect of settings. The "poll" you refer to is over a year old and Xillix has also mentioned that atheism or non-worship is actually the majority of characters in-game right now. So I fail to see your point completely here. If my comments do not apply to you... ignore them. If they do... sorry, I call it like I see it. I was not attempting to call you out specifically as I do not have a clue who your characters are in-game and may or may not have even met them.
Back on-topic... You equip a holy symbol of the god you are worshiping when you /pray... and get a message in the system tab about you pray for X seconds... like when repairing a weapon/armor? As long as the holy symbol is not used up, this sounds like something that could be very useful. If you move, just like with repair, you just blew that time spent and must continue on with your curse. You could also gain skill in "faith" or a particular deity and gain practice points when /praying... and higher levels would reduce the amount of time required to experience the curse exiting the DR, among other benefits. In order to keep people from getting too upset, the most pious should still experience the curse for 10 minutes, minimum.
[EDIT] Should there be a requirement to /pray to leave the DR? I'm skipping way forward and thinking implementation details... but still... It is entirely IC and appropriate if things work as stated (that a deity grants passage out of the DR) for our characters to give thanks upon leaving the DR. The curse is entirely appropriate as Dakkru is a little miffed at losing a potential subject... but by /pray-ing to our deity and giving thanks... the curse could be somewhat mitigated as well.
Per settings... Dakkru's followers suffer the least... so require them to /pray BEFORE leaving the DR... this could be explained as asking passage back to Y'liakum in order to bring more willing subjects to Dakkru... or simply to send them to Dakkru by force... :) Would there be a curse at all for those following Dakkru? I know travel between the DR and Y'liakum can't be as easy as walking through a door... so some effect would likely be appropriate.. just not sure what.
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We are very far from working out the mechanics but the ideas here touch upon some of the things we are thinking.
At this time we are focused on much less nuanced elements of the game and things more vital to the stability and playability of the game.
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html <--- here are some real world statistics to help the argument along.
I do not believe Planeshift should ever approach similar numbers of atheists AT ALL.
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So I fail to see your point completely here.
Yeah...
Like I said before, none of my characters are atheist. And the PS definition of Atheist is not the RL definition of Atheist.
I do not believe Planeshift should ever approach similar numbers of atheists AT ALL.
Xillix, are you very religious IRL?
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Zanzibar... read my post. If what I said doesn't apply to you... ignore it. You called me out, not the other way around.
Also, what does Xillix real life beliefs have to do with this conversation? Settings TELLS us how things are in PS, not the other way around.
[EDIT] whether you can reconcile RL atheism as different from PS atheism or not... they are different. This fact has been established in this thread very clearly. Are you just trying to continue arguing or what?
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[EDIT] whether you can reconcile RL atheism as different from PS atheism or not... they are different. This fact has been established in this thread very clearly. Are you just trying to continue arguing or what?
You were using the RL definition of atheism in a discussion on the PS definition of atheism. You were mixing them up and treating them as the same. I was not. To quote you:
Also... I stand by my point about RL intruding on PS where players want to be atheists. They hold very strong beliefs in the real world, and they are demanding those same beliefs (or lack thereof) be implemented in-game as well.
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Go back and read my original post on the subject. People are bringing their real world beliefs into the game and using them as justification for ignoring settings... do try to keep up please.
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Go back and read my original post on the subject. People are bringing their real world beliefs into the game and using them as justification for ignoring settings... do try to keep up please.
Well, I'm certainly not one of those people. :) Happy hunting.
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Then what was all of this about? I hadn't brought you into this by name, and don't have a clue who your characters are in-game.
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Closest thing I have to a religion is my loyalty to PS.
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Then what was all of this about? I hadn't brought you into this by name, and don't have a clue who your characters are in-game.
You shouldn't post right after without quoting someone else if you aren't reffering to them. Address thing sto whom they are intended. :)
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@parallo: I thought it was obvious who I was responding to, but I will try to be more clear in the future. :)
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I wonder why the choice of a favorite god was explicitly added in the character creation, when such question could be answered via religion-related events (there are some already).
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"Are you talking to me? Are you talking to me? I don't see anyone else here, so you must be talking to me."
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Maybe we should look at our past?
There was a point where athieism was unthought of. Everyone had to be religeous or was condemed a witch. Albeit it has already been established that this was a different atheism to the PS brand. However, the parrallels still run the same.
You can enforce what characters KNOW through settings but trying to enforce what the BELIEVE is completely irrational. The characters ingame are still people and what it is to be a person is to think outside the box.
Now obviously a character BELIEVING in, and talking about vampires is daft because they dont KNOW anything about them, or bats for that matter. But for them to come up with some concept of a consumer / klyros hybrid that goes round sucking life matter from people... would that be so daft for them to believe? Or at least come up with the imaginary concept of. Along the same lines just because everyone has worshiped the gods for a long time would it be so unreasonable that some spritely young thing would think 'Hey, maybe we DON'T have to worship them?'
An athiest character's beliefs cant be snatched from them through any settings. But the way the world reacts to them can. Prehaps have them treated as they were when our world was more like planeshift, have them burnt on the stake.
And prehaps getting out the death realm wont be easy for them. But in there they can find someone, who knows some, whos brothers best friend knows a way for atheists cheat Dakkru... We've already established she isn't perfect.
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The thing with atheism in the middle ages, and atheism as perceived by most modern fundamentalist sects, is that the establishment does not distinguish between lack of belief in God and believing in God in an alternative way. If you don't believe in the exact same faith, by believing in an alternative faith or a variation on the accepted faith, then you are labeled as Godless and atheist.
It's a strange way of thinking to wrap your head around. Basically, within this mindset, people are divided into two absolutes. Either you are absolutely correct, or you are absolutely wrong, with nothing in between.
Because we're modern thinkers, we're able to distinguish between a lack of belief in the existence of divine forces, and a variation of belief in divine forces.
How this applies to PlaneShift, I'm not entirely certain, but medieval culture was mentioned. It actually is a really complicated topic. This is why it's so important for us to be clear about what we mean by our terms.
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Well perhaps Planeshift is just less absolute? The gods have some unknown agenda and agreement in which they involved only the higher level of the Yilakum government because they realised that was a better way of controlling rather than direct intervention? An agenda that if atheism spread among the population would be threatened... Hence the unlikely seeming agreements they have made with each other in an attempt to discourage atheism.
As such the people as influenced by their governors will treat anyone that worships any of the accepted religions as higher than an atheist.
Besides... it is well known that these days politicians that go to church will get a certain religious vote even if its from a different religion.
To what extent are the inhabitants of the Planeshift world forward thinking? To what extent is what they think sought to be controlled by higher powers. Be it mortal or otherwise.
(I'm gonna download me a firefox spell checker... I'm hopeless) Sorted =)
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The thing is, the argument (as it's given to us) is really based on logic (like everything else, however logic is merely a process, and you will have different conclusions if you start from different assumptions).
The gods aren't working together. In fact, the gods are fiercely competitive.
The gods (so we are told) will only help their own.
Therefore, not worshiping any god will mean that no god will help you.
This requires us to accept that benevolent and compassionate gods will not be helpful to those who do not worship them. We do not know why this is the case.
Also, worship for the sake of rewards and fear of punishment is considered by the gods to be true worship.
This is the theology and the divine consequence of not worshiping a god. The social consequences of not worshiping a god, such as being labeled as individualist and all that, don't fit in as neatly and (in my opinion) haven't been explained except to say "That's just the way it is" (a perfectly acceptable explanation, however not a gratifying one for my personality type).
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I know this is an old thread .. but this seems important:
As far as I know there is no reward in game for following/worshiping a god/deity. There have been a few occasions where a Xiosia blessed a character (gave gift/boosted stats) but I don't think this is a frequent occurance.. (nor should it be) . I could be wrong, but perhaps Talad, and Laanx and Dakkru should be reaching out too ?
The gods would be much more believable if they intervened with players, guilds, or religions frequently by giving temporary gifts or powers to players or members of observant guilds and religions perhaps. By stepping into the world and asking (or demanding) for certain things, or giving special quests.
What I would propose is to have the game mechanics provide the player with some reward for following ONE god/religion. ( this could easily be enforced easily via factions points )
A player's commitment to a given god could be direct ( as a result of /pray-ing or doing something ) or indirect ( though association with a religion or religious guild, or by wearing a religious artifact )
To make the religion practical it should have an effect on the character. Perhaps having a certain level of faction with a given god would aid in war, crafting, casting, hunting or whatever... ( via stat bonus or skewing ones odds when looting or mining etc.. )
Also, if god intervention was more believable/meaningful as illustrated above players might be more inclined to include these deities in their character's lives. ( I hear other players speak casually about the gods in passing, but its usually just "xiosia bless" or some other catchy phrase picked up from a book or quest )
One more thought, if a god's willingness to participate with players could be influenced (negatively or positively) by the actions of players then perhaps there would be some degree of religious zeal ( perhaps even some nasty religious wars :devil: )
Just food for thought...
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Impatience is untenable in an all volunteer game.
All of the above is planned.
It is much more difficult than anyone has ever acknowledged.
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If to follow current setting, then...
Atheism should have nothing with permadeath, but penalty for death should be greater for atheists.
It can be teleporting to random location (including sky), again death during reviving (fun indeed) or just greater effect of Dakkru's curse - 2 hours instead of 30 min and stat reducing not by x2 but by x3 for example.
The main problem is how to define that character is atheist. Character creation is bad definer. CHARACTER CAN CHANGE RELIGION DURING GAME. Faction points are not good also IMHO - there are many quests for Laanx, and they are all done for reward not for RP but there are few for Talad, and few if any for Xiosia.
Maybe it should be right of players to define who of them is not dedicated enough worshipper? Say, religion guilds ask GMs to set atheism penalty for specific players.
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If to follow current setting, then...
Atheism should have nothing with permadeath, but penalty for death should be greater for atheists.
It can be teleporting to random location (including sky), again death during reviving (fun indeed) or just greater effect of Dakkru's curse - 2 hours instead of 30 min and stat reducing not by x2 but by x3 for example.
The main problem is how to define that character is atheist. Character creation is bad definer. CHARACTER CAN CHANGE RELIGION DURING GAME. Faction points are not good also IMHO - there are many quests for Laanx, and they are all done for reward not for RP but there are few for Talad, and few if any for Xiosia.
Maybe it should be right of players to define who of them is not dedicated enough worshipper? Say, religion guilds ask GMs to set atheism penalty for specific players.
You have to be careful though. According to the settings, characters aren't punished for being atheists. It's just that being an atheist means they won't get any help. So they don't suffer exaggerated effects, they simply suffer the natural ones. While characters that please the gods get reprieve.
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My honest opinion:
Leave it to the devs to debate and come up with a decision. We could write Gigabytes of text debating what we think is right, end of the day, their call.
[EDIT: fixed a typo (write was 'right')]
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My honest opinion:
Leave it to the devs to debate and come up with a decision. We could right Gigabytes of text debating what we think is right, end of the day, their call.
I agree, but I will say this. For the sake of RP-ing and the Story behind some of the races in the game, all of them can't be religious.
As some of you know, I play a Klyros. I've read the Klyros Lore and the Story written in here as well. Based on that, I believe that any Klyros with a little knowledge of it's own history, would have learned from previous mistakes and run in the other direction whenever a god decides to show up. With Ilgareth (from Klyros Lore), they worshiped her and she was a good god/deity for some time, like Xiosia is right now. But then she changed and nearly killed all and destroyed the world the Klyros originally came from. So they go into the portal and on the other side they meet Laanx, which they now won't worship. Laanx nearly kills all.
The Klyros have every reason to not worship a god. They certainly know they exist and got powers, but that has seemed to be a bit of the problem in the past, so they won't be a part of rising another one's ego.
If now a Klyros would have more negative effects from godly intervention, or absess from it, then I think there would be very few people playing them. They want to RP the race, but since you need to really work to get around the god issues from the past for it to be accepted, they would accept that a god isn't anything for a Klyros anymore, but then they'd get negative effects from it.
Of course, all who wanted to play Klyros could go around saying 'bless this and that' and not mean it, but that just seems stupid. You could put in a 'belief in the Klyros' so that the strength of the race would act the same way as believing in a god, although not with a /pray command, which is a good idea, but aren't people training enough things as it is?
Just my two tria ;)
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Of course, all who wanted to play Klyros could go around saying 'bless this and that' and not mean it, but that just seems stupid.
That's what everyone is doing though. Worship in PlaneShift is a matter of utility, not belief or lifestyle. People worship gods because of the rewards they get. Morality isn't a factor, nor is believing the god is good. There are exceptions, but they're a minority.
The settings might change of course. And new settings might be revealed to us that change how we understand the relationship between the people in Yliakum and the gods. But as things are, this is how it is... you worship a God because it would be foolish not to do so, since so many survival benefits come from worshiping a God. The settings tell us that Yliakum is such a dangerous place that our characters are obsessed with survival.
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I was meaning leave it to the devs to decide how penalties/benefits should be applied in game.
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I was meaning leave it to the devs to decide how penalties/benefits should be applied in game.
Absolutely. It's silly to argue over something we haven't had a chance to test yet.
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Of course, all who wanted to play Klyros could go around saying 'bless this and that' and not mean it, but that just seems stupid.
Isn't that called roleplaying ?
I mean of course the player doesn't believe in any PS deity (or if that's the case, (s)he should get some help IRL ^^), but if his/her character talks and acts as a believer would, then there's nothing wrong with that. You can roleplay a character whose beliefs are totally different from yours, you just have to roleplay it consistantly.
Besides, I don't see a reason why we couldn't give some advantages to believers if that helps to maintain a good believers/atheists ratio. After all, a believer has to spend some time praying etc. and is restricted in his actions, so (s)he chould have some kind of a reward since an Atheist will have more time to do other things (working, mining, training...) and have more freedom of action.
Besides, the situation is different from the real world : IRL the gods either don't exist, or don't care about us, or interact with us through very subtle touches. As I see it, gods in planeshift interact more directly with the mortals, so it would be easier for a character to believe in them than it is for a player.
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I think everyone in Ylikaum believes in the Gods. The key concept is worship. In planeshift, there are no atheists in the sense of people who believe the Gods don't exist. Rather, atheist in Yliakum is a word used to describe people who believe in the gods, but do not worship them.
This is my current understanding. I've been working hard to understand this issue but I'm always open to correction.
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@Zanzi
that sounds about right, gods being a natural part of life in Yliakum, denying their existance is like saying there's no crystal or there is no such thing as a Kran, but there will always be those that don't or refuse to worship them.