Author Topic: Death of an Atheist  (Read 9015 times)

Aro

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2009, 10:06:16 am »
I play games for the entertainement value. The entertainment value of PS is already pretty low to me, due to countless encounters with so called "roleplayers", who constantly drop out of character to lecture me in [bracketspeak] on what they consider to be in character (the idiocy here is overwhelming).
Religions in real life are a scam and I strongly oppose to them. Make it mandatory for me to follow one in PlaneShift and behave in what I would normally call idiotic ways, then the entertainment value drops even further. I don't really want to have to say "Hail Xiosa" in public once a login day, just to avoid permadeath.

First, that's unrelated.  If you have a complaint on such an issue, bring it up somewhere else, please.  Second, while I agree with you that having to say 'hail <insert religion>!' Or die permanently would be silly, I feel previous posts in this thread have already covered this with viable and serious alternatives.  Namely, Prolix, Dajoji, and Khoridor, on the fact that not only is it an ambiguous text, there's solutions that could be implemented in the same manner, or over the top of "you don't haz religion, you die!!!111!"

As far as my character is concerned, gods do exist. Big deal, so do rocks. I don't worship rocks either and I couldn't care less about what is written in religious tracts. These were obviously not written by the gods themselves, but by worshippers who have an agenda of pushing their religion and hence the truth value of the texts is questionable at best. Even if the books were directly dictated by the deity in question, this would still not matter to me, as gods can lie too (see BF, which at least honestly admits being full of deceit). The best any god can expect from my character is a lip service and even that will only be given if it is rewarding.

See post from Donari.  Your character is a weak atheist.  Congrats.

Furthermore, I'd like to mention, that the PS gods are anything but almighty and infallible. They may be powerful beyond mortal means, but they are still incompetent in countless ways:

(''>.>)  The point I'm trying to make here is that they are powerful, and they are flawed.  That doesn't mean they are undeserving of worship.  Look at the greek gods, they did all sorts of crap far worse than any cited here, and they were worshiped very heavily. 

* Black Flame ... wears bunny slippers and probably got totally lost in planning and scheming for no purpose by now.

The Black Flame is far more real, and far closer than you'd think.    :devil:

Nobody is perfect, the PS gods double so. Neither of them is a true creator god and none truly stands above anything (especially not it's fellow deities), so it does not make much sense, why any should have true dominion over life and death (Talad almost killed Laanx, remember?). Ever thought about the possibility, that Dakkrus curse in reality is just a little souvenir, people get who have the will of escaping the realm she claimed as hers? Maybe, the gods don't bail you out of DR. Them doing so is just some PR lie, told by their priests (after all, worshippers make donations, donations pay the rent, the more worshippers a priest can gather, the more wealth/influence he gets). Ever seen a god actively helping you to get out of the DR? Me neither and considering the amount of tourist traffic in there, I doubt that any god would even want to get personally involved in the check out process. So, even if the exit gate was somehow powered all gods mysteriously working together for no obvious reason at all, there would still be enough room for any non worshipper and atheists to slip by.

Only problem--Dakkru is the goddess of death.  That means she gets dominion over life, and death.  The rest of that is simply speculation on things still in development.  I can't argue that without knowing if it's true or false, but it's an interesting take.

In summary, the people of Yliakum have obvious gods present.  If your character chooses to ignore them, or take them lightly, then he/she/kra ought to be prepared to deal with some sort of consequence.  That consequence could be anything, that text is fairly ambiguous and could be changed during a future update. 

I would like to state that such a process of enforcement on religion would need to be implemented carefully, and probably won't happen anytime soon(TM).  See here if you would like to know what the devs are currently working on...  Doesn't seem like this issue is very pressing, and it shall remain open to interpretation by players until something definitive is put into place.  Alternatively, you could put more ideas on the table as to how the process works, and see what kind of feedback you get.  You don't need to shoot an idea down before it's even close to thought through.



Irgendwer

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2009, 11:37:39 am »
Irgendwer I do agree with you. I would like to see if you could come up with an alternative 'story' that would be more to our liking.

Thats rather easy, once you understand "roleplay" as acting as a person and not mimicking some kind of stereotype (the later sadly being, what most consider roleplay around here). As a person, you do have an agenda, needs and wishes. This goes for PC as well as NPC. Furthermore, you should understand "myth" exactly what it is: Not a literally true story, but a story based on some event, that may or not have been happened at some time (might have been pure imagination, but was taken for real anyway) and then got heavily skewed by oral tradition (there's a nice children party game about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers).

So, lets say at some point in time, somewhere, something happened to someone. Maybe, it was even a person calling herself "Dakkru" telling Londaris something. Does that mean, that this Dakkru told him the truth? Did he understand her correctly and entirely? Did he write down the story without omitting or gloryfying parts? Appearantly not. Whatever he saw that day put a great deal of stress on his mind and impress him deeply. His text contains passages, that are up to interpretation (this threat is proof of that). He is anything but a neutral observer. He even confesses, that he lied to people before, telling them, that they only dreamed death.

Take Sharven for example. That guy is the head of the Laanx cult in Hydlaa and has a whole temple complex to maintain. Count on upkeep not being cheap. Since he does not make the impression of being inclined to actually work for it himself, he is dependant on gathering followers, who will donate money. He therefore has a stake in making people belief his stories. Do you honestly trust him (and his predecessors) to not occationally bent the truth in his favour? Here is a funny little story, about things tend to become ritual in religion: http://digitalbristol.org/members/tyndaleb/link/dec05/cat.html

If a god, decides to make a personal appearance in the midst of Hydlaa, can you say with certainty, that the god really is the god s/he claims to be and not some imposter? Thumbs up for the "Pilgrim event here". The event itself was a total bore, but the idea of letting "Xiosa" appear on Xmas to make everyone jealous with gifts and then lead the greedy folks defile nature was heavenly.


So to bring it in story form: Gods are myths. Most of what we know about them, we know from people, of whom we only have their word, that they indeed spoke to the deity in question in person. All religious texts contain at least some portion, that is pure fiction (either deliberatly placed there or due to a missunderstanding). Even those parts, that are not fiction, should be taken with a grain of salt, because it may be on the gods agenda to deceive the mortals in order to reach some goal (any BF followers here? Do you trust your god? Why?).

To direct this to the Death Realm: According to the books found in the library, Londaris was there long before Dakkru chose to reveal herself. Let's say, that Dakkru in fact is a genuine immortal being and not only some kind of personalized concept. Maybe, she started out as some very powerful mage or an extraplanar being from Dimension elsewhere. After a freak accident, involving three rubber strings, a microwave oven and a broken JuJu totem, she found herself transported into a world with a Dark crystal as a sky, a citadel and portal (all of that build by the previous owner, who is currently unavailable). Being a rather intelligent person, she might have figured, that her only way to get back home would be through that crystal. Unfortunately, it's energy is depleted (well ... it's dark, isn't it?) and the only suiteable source of energy is ... well ... you guessed it: Souls. Would seem rather natural to me, that in this case, Dakkru would curse any of the little batteries, escaping her grasp and most certainly not tell anyone the real reason for wanting people to stick around. After all, the DR in its current form does not make any sense. It makes perfect sense however, if it was originally build for an entirely different purpose that got lost, when Dakkru took over and twisted things the best she could to serve her needs.


Actually ... The more I think about it, the more appealing atheism becomes. I think, I'll play a heretic from now on. Wonder, how many /report I will get from the "roleplayers".
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 11:49:33 am by Irgendwer »

Timmothy Perriwinkle

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2009, 11:50:29 am »
Thumbs up for the "Pilgrim event here". The event itself was a total bore, but the idea of letting "Xiosa" appear on Xmas to make everyone jealous with gifts and then lead the greedy folks defile nature was heavenly.
...
Actually ... The more I think about it, the more appealing atheism becomes. I think, I'll play a heretic from now on. Wonder, how many /report I will get from the "roleplayers".

You made some very valid points in your post, I don't know why you felt the need to void all of them by pissing people off with snide comments and taking potshots at the Xiosa event.


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Gravemind

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2009, 12:58:44 pm »
To be honest, I would actually very much like it to be able to play atheists without much penalty in this game. Would allow me to give a whole new dimension to Nhil's cynicism :)

Basically I just wanted to be finally clear on whether or not it is at all possible to play a Black Way mage as an atheist, because traveling to the death realm is generally a part of their daily routine
There is an alternative, more probable theory that 9/11 was in fact caused by Hanson's 1997 smash hit 'MMMBop.'

khoridor

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2009, 04:35:37 pm »
Playing an atheist in an Heroic Fantasy setting is as meaningful as playing an E.T. in a Bushido game. Or playing a janissary while refusing to play a slave. Limitations are supposed to force imagination.
Irgendwer, you may want a mythology sandwich a la Terry Pratchett, but I don't believe that is what the PS team has in mind. And you make one basic mistake: in a fictional world, gods are not myths. Ask Elric, the Gray Mouser, or even Rincewind.

zanzibar

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2009, 04:40:43 pm »
And I quote - 'Three. We gods shall no longer spare the faithless; you who do not revere a deity or follow a sacred path, you shall have no succor, and you will be folded into Me as your spirit shrivels. All who die the true death are Yliakum's gifts to Me.'
Atheism can be a sacred path.  Look at secular humanism for instance.

Keep in mind that in PlaneShift, atheist is anyone who doesn't worship the gods.  If you believe in the gods but worship none of them, you are an atheist.


The fact remains that all this is RP-only. In the absence of a system that measures worship, death shall be the same for everybody.
PlaneShift is a roleplaying game.  All game mechanics will eventually reflect the settings.


Strong atheist
What you called strong atheism is actually OOC atheism.  PlaneShift atheists believe in the gods.  They just don't worship any of them in particular.

Weak atheists=People that know the gods exist but do not worship them:
These people deserve nothing but pity.
No, this is an absolutist attitude that hurts the believability of the game.  It isn't an attitude that's shared by all the devs either so I don't know why you're stating it as fact.

As far as my character is concerned, gods do exist. Big deal, so do rocks.
Best comment in the thread.

I agree with Irgendwer that the gods aren't very god-like.  They really just behave like super powerful wizards.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 06:49:44 pm by zanzibar »
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Timmothy Perriwinkle

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2009, 06:43:17 pm »
I agree with Irgendwer that the gods aren't very god-like.  They really just behave like super powerful wizards.

They are basically just that afaik. The only real 'god' is Vodul, who gave power to Laanx, etc.


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Orgonwukh

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2009, 07:21:31 am »
I skipped the whole discussion because of an important thing, I think has been missed:
Books not necessarily contain the truth. Londris
a) might follow a false belief or
b) simply wrote lies into his book.
The actual effect of not worshipping a god (this still is called 'atheist'), at the moment is: nothing.
I played my char for two RL years without letting him worship any god, the effect was: nothing.
'Nothing' has been chosen by settings team (I blame Xillix ;) ).

My ideas for the discussion:
- Trying to interpret an in-game book to force a change in settings is not a good idea. Rules for settings should be set up OOCly by the settings team. The characters (both players and NPCs) should react to the world and its properties, not the other way round.
- If non-worshipping will be punished in the future (I blame Xillix in advance ;) ), I propose to publish this in advance. A good in-game explanation would also be helpful.

Arerano

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2009, 09:20:20 am »
Maybe the actual problem is "calling them gods/deities". "We" possibly associate with "god/deity" something Xiosia, Dakkru, Talad, Laanx, etc. don't even come close to.


Hmm, putting some more thoughts into it, the "gods from the greek myths" aren't in any way perfect either. They also have flaws like jealousy.
But that would mean that the Character Creation description of Atheist doesn't fit at all
"The atheist does not look outside itself for truth.. etc.. Attracted to this faith: anti-social people,.. irrational people"

Unless the truth is "play nice and get gifts".. though I wouldn't call that worshipping but pretending and since the gods are flawed themself and everything else but "almighty", there's no way for them to see the difference.

[ maybe Arerano should suddenly start to pray to all gods.. ..after realising that truth ]

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2009, 10:20:41 am »
The simple majority of all characters do not worship the gods at all.

How does this fact aid roleplaying or making the settings come to life?

Discuss:

Arerano

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2009, 10:53:18 am »
The simple majority of all characters do not worship the gods at all.

Says who?

Parallo

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2009, 10:54:47 am »
Anyone that looks in game. The majority don't have characters.
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

Raekh

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2009, 10:55:59 am »
Quote
The simple majority of all characters do not worship the gods at all.
If say 75% of all characters were PLed chars mainly, that wouldnt be surprising xD

Aiwendil

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2009, 11:03:15 am »
From the history on the PlaneShift webpage http://www.planeshift.it/history.html
Quote
All the Talad's efforts to make the Diaboli his followers failed. The Diaboli were inclined to disappear whenever someone began to discuss about religion.

Quote
Many of them - except the Diaboli - slowly gave up the faith in their previous gods to worship the god of the glyphs.

And from the races description http://www.planeshift.it/diaboli.html
Quote
On the other hand, they avoid holy places as they feel uncomfortable in them. It's quite rare to meet a Diabolo inside a temple, apart from the imprisoned ones. They diligently try to avoid sacred objects: holy weapons are devastating against them.

The first quote could be interpreted that Diaboli just don't follow Talad, but maybe Laanx was later able to make them worship him/her. But the second and third quote makes this somehow unlikely. So from these quotes I conclude that nearly all Diaboli are what Donari calles "Weak atheists"...So if someone plays a Diaboli worshipping some God, spending a lot of time in temples praying and maybe even wearing some holy symbols the person plays a very exceptional Diaboli. And if I follow some opinions here in this thread this means nearly every Diaboli will die permanently. I'm sure this will lead to a lot players playing such exceptional chars for OOC reasons. But maybe I missed some important information here and the whole diaboli population converted to one of the gods recently.

And another book of Londris at least shows that is was possible for atheists to leave the death realm again some time ago (The content of the book indicates this was written before Dakkru revealed herself to Londris and the others)
From Londris's Six Falsehoods
Quote
First Falsehood: Faith in the gods of Yliakum is the only way to come back from the dead. This is completely untrue. I have seen thousands of heroic atheists walk through the portal as readily as priests of Talad and Laanx. I do not mean that it is not possible that the gods have a hand in the phenomena of the Death Realm: it just means that faith is not what saves your life. The Diaboli, sensualists that they are, even made a game of dying in strange ways when they first arrived in Yliakum. No gods were angered and the Death Realm worked for them as easily as it worked for Lemurs and Kran for centuries before. It is of note, however, that the Dark Crystal seems to have a draining effect on bodies who use the portals too often and the Diaboli have ceased the practise.
Of course this book could be a lie too, but I think if this truly happened some other tales of this must have survived too.

So this all lead to some confusion for me.
First, are nearly all Diaboli still not worshipping any god? And if they worship what happened to change their attitude.
Second, to come back to the topic of this thread, if it's true that Diaboli doesn't worship any God in Yliakum will they all die permanently now? Or is there maybe some god who finds the race useful and allows them to exit the death realm even if they don't worship him/her?
Third, wouldn't it be common knowledge among the population now if no atheist ever leaves the death realm again?

Mythryndel

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Re: Death of an Athetist
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2009, 11:24:11 am »
The simple majority of all characters do not worship the gods at all.

How does this fact aid roleplaying or making the settings come to life?

Discuss:

The simple majority are either not interested in settings, to one degree or another, or simply do not devote time to "worship" their deity. I myself to not "worship" a deity in-game... but frequently part company with "May Laanx smile on you". That is just my IC way of saying "May you have the good fortune not to experience a server crash". IC pun on the fact that the server is laanx.fragnetics.com.

As to making settings come to life or roleplaying... being rather ambiguous is a good thing. It leaves things open to interpretation and IC "discussions" will take place... some more heated than others. Also, with no one true deity, it leaves options much more open for characters to do favors for more than one religious sect without facing retribution for a god "finding their lack of faith disturbing"...