Death of an Atheist

[Irgendwer]

The simple majority of all characters do not worship the gods at all.

How does this fact aid roleplaying or making the settings come to life?

Discuss:

(Actually, this should be a new thread)

It helps as so far as you can be you. You don't have to hamper the actions of your character by what your deity would approve of. For example: I can hardly justify following Xiosa on one hand and use ulbernauts as sparring partners on the other, which I pretty much have to do, when my longterm goal is to become a powerful wizard.

Following a certain faith should always be optional, but if you have set your mind on bringing them to life, consider this (does not even require game mechanics): There are a couple of faith based guilds. Allow them to "register" with the "church" of their choice as a religious order (think "Jesuits" and "roman catholic church" here). Every week a registered faith would get a GM money gift. ICly, this is donation money, raised by the NPC population of Yliakum for whatever service the guild provided to the populus. If there are several rival faith guilds, they have to compete for the donation money. Greed is really something, that drives people into doing stuff.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31309.0

I may have overstated a bit given those poll results . . . the poll does skew a bit given the constituency of the forums (most people who play do not vote and most who do not vote are likely to have nothing to do with religions)

Either way atheism by itself is beating two of the major religions when it is supposed to be incredibly rare and if you combine that with people playing polytheists (in no way supported by either CC or settings) these two are beating three of the major religions. . .

The question stands: How does a lack of belief in gods advance roleplay or immersion?

As to questions about Diaboli worship it is also stated in CC that many Diaboli are attracted to Xiosia.

Here Irgendwer strikes at the heart of the situation: "It helps as so far as you can be you." You shouldn't be you: Laanx is an RP server you are intended to play a role. It is stated clearly that few people are irreligious in settings from character creation on through all content. The same exact problem comes up when most people play Ylian males. . .  (Take on a role please, if you want to play you, walk outside . . .)

[Arerano]

http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31309.0
..atheism by itself is beating two of the major religions..

Not quite, but it isn't really rare either.
However, the question is "which deity" the character favours most. "None" can also mean that they all are favoured equally.

The question stands: How does a lack of belief in gods advance roleplay or immersion?

You write about "belief", but isn't it "worshipping" you are after? A "lack of belief" can be caused by different things like some sort of "mental illness" and can very well be used for RP. I doubt that "belief" alone will advance it.

But how is someone supposed to worship the godess of nature.. or rather "so called godess of nature" if they have to realise that the connection between said godess and nature seems to be slimmer than between her and the need of fishing false worshippers by the use of gifts?
How is someone supposed to teach about the importance of balance of nature under such circumstances? I'd rather expect to see "a godess of nature" appearing to those true with the nature outside the city instead of her making some kind of show inside the city for people who possibly just came from slaying beasts in the arena for the joy of "fighting".

[khoridor]

It is not easy to worship the gods correctly.
Books contain some gods' biographies, and descriptions of religious hierarchies, but it is not clear who to pray to when you are a farmer, a fighter or a builder, who you thank for a birth or good weather.
I'm not even sure what Talad and Laanx are gods of.
So we go timidly with general formulas and blessings.
Dakkru is much easier to talk about. Although I still hear nothing about afterlife anywhere.

Either way atheism by itself is beating two of the major religions when it is supposed to be incredibly rare and if you combine that with people playing polytheists (in no way supported by either CC or settings) these two are beating three of the major religions. . .

I keep reading that mistake: There is only 1 religion. Several gods, but only 1 religion. Inside of it, there may be various temples, sects, rites and such, but people believe in ALL the gods.
I don't even understand why it's all about believing or not. Let a character pretend that 1 of the gods doesn't exist and see what happens. Now some people go straight from all to 0.
Neither don't I understand why people want to tell us that the gods are just ulbermages, aliens or mega-computers from a distant future. This is also irrelevant. The basis of the setting is that there are gods. Period. This is a fantasy game, WITH gods.

[Orgonwukh]

And another book of Londris at least shows that is was possible for atheists to leave the death realm again some time ago (The content of the book indicates this was written before Dakkru revealed herself to Londris and the others)
From Londris's Six Falsehoods

First Falsehood: Faith in the gods of Yliakum is the only way to come back from the dead. This is completely untrue. I have seen thousands of heroic atheists walk through the portal as readily as priests of Talad and Laanx. I do not mean that it is not possible that the gods have a hand in the phenomena of the Death Realm: it just means that faith is not what saves your life. The Diaboli, sensualists that they are, even made a game of dying in strange ways when they first arrived in Yliakum. No gods were angered and the Death Realm worked for them as easily as it worked for Lemurs and Kran for centuries before. It is of note, however, that the Dark Crystal seems to have a draining effect on bodies who use the portals too often and the Diaboli have ceased the practise.

Of course this book could be a lie too, but I think if this truly happened some other tales of this must have survived too.

Thanks for reminding me, Aiwendil

First, are nearly all Diaboli still not worshipping any god? And if they worship what happened to change their attitude.

In public, my char worships Xiosia right now. In his sick mind, he hates all so-called gods and might even plot against them. He also questions their divinity and thinks they are just former mortal beings with too much magic powers.

Second, to come back to the topic of this thread, if it's true that Diaboli doesn't worship any God in Yliakum will they all die permanently now?

No. Not from what I know.

Or is there maybe some god who finds the race useful and allows them to exit the death realm even if they don't worship him/her?

Good question: Does a character have to worship a god to get support?

Third, wouldn't it be common knowledge among the population now if no atheist ever leaves the death realm again?

Agreed, a sudden change of this would cause inconsistencies.

Either way atheism by itself is beating two of the major religions when it is supposed to be incredibly rare and if you combine that with people playing polytheists (in no way supported by either CC or settings) these two are beating three of the major religions. . .

The question stands: How does a lack of belief in gods advance roleplay or immersion?

I play an egocentric, paranoid, rebellious character. Almost all of his actions are based on his assumption that the so-called-gods exist and are worshipped because of their invisibility which is interpreted as divinity.

Stupid question part:
What is CC?
Is athetist a synonym for atheist?

[Parallo]

CC is character creation.

[Tuathanach]

The question stands: How does a lack of belief in gods advance roleplay or immersion?

Surely all know/believe the gods exist in planeshift. We choose to worship them or not .
Tuathanach believes in the gods and raised as a follower of Talad, but since lost faith in talad (due to events as a teenager) and has not chosen to worship another god.
Tuathanach is a believer in gods and not a follower.

I skipped the whole discussion because of an important thing, I think has been missed:
Books not necessarily contain the truth. Londris
a) might follow a false belief or
b) simply wrote lies into his book.
The actual effect of not worshipping a god (this still is called 'atheist'), at the moment is: nothing.
I played my char for two RL years without letting him worship any god, the effect was: nothing.
'Nothing' has been chosen by settings team (I blame Xillix ).

Going back to the main topic I agree with Orgunwukh. the main discussion point should be more about the validity of the book not whether Talad, laanx, xiosia etc are gods (realistic or not)
@ Orgunwukh c) Londris was insane

[Prolix]

Here is what you need to do Xillix: Create shrines for each of the gods and for every day that a character does not service the shrine all skills/stats are reduced by one. If the shrine of the god chosen in character creation is serviced daily skills and stats will remain unharmed. Should they be reduced they can be regained by servicing the shrine more frequently. Should the character not service the shrine of their particular god but rather a different god their skills will remain but stats will still be reduced. If all stats get reduced to zero through non servicing shrines perma-death occurs.

As for the current situation would you be happy if I declared that all the time when I am not on-line with my characters they are praying to god x in a non-existent temple? Really it comes down to how pious do you want worshippers to be? Some of the faithful cannot take a step without praising their god, others want to actually have a life of their own and carry their faith silently outside the temple. How onerous do you want religion to be?

[Parallo]

What if you aren't online daily?

[Timmothy Perriwinkle]

That would imply you had a life that is not Planeshift, which is unacceptable.

[Mythryndel]

If you want to bring OOC into this... the reason Atheism is so popular is one, or a combination of, three things:

1. The player is either atheist or agnostic... [EDIT] AND can't bring themselves to "worship" any "god"...

2. The player is religious OOC AND is refusing to "worship" another "god"... even a made-up god in a fantasy setting...

3. The player is simply rebellious and wants to "go against the flow"...

Seriously... people have an aversion to "worshiping" in-game for one of those reason... As to IC reasons... I hate to say it... but more than 50% of the people I have gamed with over the years (table-top, BBS, MUD... yes, I am showing my age here...) lack the creativity to actually play a character that is significantly different from their OOC nature.

[jaycol]

                 [I think many players choose athetist in creation, because many wish to see more about the religions and gods after they come in game. A later chreated character may indeed reflect that choice or chioces. As far as religion and/or belief that is something that is instilled into us as we are raised. And not limited to those teaching as we all search through life in our way to seek the answers of our own questions. Many beliefs may change by a single event, a group of friendship, marrage, or even from relocation into another comunity.]

                 [ I do not except the fact that there are true athetists among those (characters) living in Yliakum. I my view, if you choose to leave the death realm in the first place it is the only way you can recieve the gift of renewed life. That is exceptance. to state shortly after " I am cursed.' ," I hate this curse" Is a sign that you have complied to the basis of that belief. Or you wouls still be in the Dr playing die or simply permantently dead.]

                [The descriptions of the gods and to their traits are present in the history, and some in-game. It is a base outline on the creation of the world, its peoples and some explaination of that witch is. It also states in a not so clear way that the peoples were not forced to choose or except one over the other. The wining of such faith is left to the gods to fight over and/or win over each other. ]

               [ Religion is a practice of belief, not the belief of the gods themselves. An individual could go through life believing in a god, but never once voice that belief or act in the practice of it. That doesn't mean that they would be unfaithful to that belief. Religions are the rituals and practice of the peoples themselves to express thier beliefs as a way of life. Two different communities may worship the same  god, but in two different views and standards. A north Hydlaa view would be slighty different then that of east Hydlaa on the belief of Laanx. But, to an outside the same in comparision by the close proximity of their locations.]

               [ I believe that the outlines of the gods were left vague intentionaly. Regardless of the fact that the game is in developement. This allows religious structure to develope within those breif guidelines by the very people who are to practice those regilious beliefs. It also would make sence being this is a RP game. The openess of that allows characters to discuss, argue and/or act accordingly to their views. I like the freedom of that for my character.]

              [I also feel that the settings team does not need to spell out the entire religion of a god or the practice of it. Though I'm more then sure they could, or will add more later. But what is needed is player interaction in-game on the religions themselves, by use of events, books or even by word of mouth by pratice. Some players have started to do just that, some already have. Whether or not that view is excepted by the population can be done by spreading the word and the teaching of the practice.
Besides, the gods are there. If they are displeased, I'm more then sure they will take a second out of their immortality to let you know]

[zanzibar]

But that would mean that the Character Creation description of Atheist doesn't fit at all
"The atheist does not look outside itself for truth.. etc.. Attracted to this faith: anti-social people,.. irrational people"

Absolutely.  I actually posted a revised version of the Character Creation description.  The description of Atheism as it is now seems to be an injection of personal opinion into the settings -- it doesn't have much to do with PlaneShift.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

It is not merely personal opinion it was edited by many people discussed among the devs.

Perhaps we should remove the option to be atheist entirely discuss:

[Mythryndel]

For me, at character creation, I didn't know enough about settings to really choose anything with any real knowledge. What I would prefer, since atheism is supposed to be rare... and not to pigeon hole someone into having to choose at character creation... simply change the option to undecided for the time being. Atheism is not really a good term to describe what is meant in-game.

[EDIT] What does choosing a deity at character creation actually do for you? Does it give you faction? stats? skills? Does this decision make your character better/worse when they come into Y'liakum for the first time? I am not worried about fairness here... I am simply curious if the choice has ramifications in-game and follows you as a part of your character.