A Dice Based Roleplay System - Discussion

[Eonwind]

To give a little more clarity on what I had in mind:

For casual role play, some of the situations that we run into would include:

1. Player vs. Player RP fights
2. Feats - like making a potion or disarming a trap - ( within a roleplay session )

For more game-like RP *Events* as I proposed in the first post - where players embark on a player lead quest and start off with a common understanding of why they are there and what they need to accomplish - and possibly a fresh character for the event, I would predict a need for the following:

1. Dice fights against narrated npc characteres. ( these characters would either be alts or we would just imagine that they are there )

2. Feats  ( like trying to interpret a scoll, detect a trap, or heal a fellow player )

I think what you maybe looking for is something very simple like rolling a single dice to determine the outcame of an action, should it be a RPed crafting or roleplayed fight action.
I still think something like I suggested would be very easy to use:

roll a dice + add a stat related bonus + add skill bonus + add an optional circumstance bonus -> if you beat a given difficulty you succeeded (*)

(*) when two players are fighting each roll a dice and the results are compared, the higher wins the tie

I feel this very simple and very flexible mechanism could be used for almost any situation where rolling a dice is suitable.
By choosing carefully the dice type and the stat and skill bonus even untrained character can have a chance to fight a trained charater: the bigger the dice the higher the randomness and less important the stats and skill become. Also by using carefully the circumstance bonus you can account for any situation like an already hurt character, a well played maneuver, having hard time fighting more than one opponent at time... ...

Just remember one thing the more a system is flexible the more common sense is required by the players to account for special situations, it's a double edged blade.

[Rigwyn]

So here's some preliminary ideas for formula guidelines which would be subject to negotiation and common sense. I used DW as a single example rather than repeating myself for each way. (CW is DW's opposite. )



Attack with DW:       /roll d50 + DW/10 + CHA/40  ( = 1 - 80 )

Defend Against DW:  /roll d50 + DW/10 + CHA/40 + Armour_bonus¹   ( = 1 - 80+ )

Damage Dealt via Magic:  /roll d20 + DW/10 +CHA/40  (1 - 50 )



Attack with Sword:       /roll d50 + SWORD/10 + STR/40  ( = 1 - 80 )

Defend With Armor Against sword:  /roll d50 + ARMOR/10 + AGI/40 + Armour_bonus¹  (= 1 - 80 )

Dodge sword attack:  /roll d50 + AGI/20  ( = 1 - 70 )

Damage Dealt via sword:  /roll d20 + SWORD/10 +STR/40  (1 - 50 )


Feats:

To attempt a feat with a difficulty of 1 - 70
/roll d50 + Skill/10    ( = 1 - 70 )



1. Armour bonus - value between 1 and 10 for *enchanted* armour that protects against the way in question.

[Ulfer]

Forgive me for this post - perhaps I don't understand it very well and I'm missing the point entirely. However, can I ask why you're designing a game to put in a game when there's mechanics readily available for everyone to use?

I can see this is somewhat popular but this does seem to be something more fitting in a forum-based community where an IRC roll-bot can be used. This does not seem to be fitting for a developing MMO game (besides using the lore)

[Eonwind]

Forgive me for this post - perhaps I don't understand it very well and I'm missing the point entirely. However, can I ask why you're designing a game to put in a game when there's mechanics readily available for everyone to use?

I can see this is somewhat popular but this does seem to be something more fitting in a forum-based community where an IRC roll-bot can be used. This does not seem to be fitting for a developing MMO game (besides using the lore)

IMHO this is a legit question, for various reason (too long to explain here) roleplayers are uncomfortable using the real time game mechanics, given this fact I think it was better to outline a brief set of simple roll based "mechanics" than relying on different systems that while they surely efficient while used in other contexts they require hard work to blend with PS concepts.

So here's some preliminary ideas for formula guidelines which would be subject to negotiation and common sense. I used DW as a single example rather than repeating myself for each way. (CW is DW's opposite. )
[...]

yes, something like that, you understood the concept, in particular for melee fight opposed roll maybe done depending on the actions undertaken by fighters, for example:
1. Player A attacks with sword, player B dodges: A roll Sword Vs. B roll a dodge
2. Player A attacks with sword, player B blocks with a shield: A roll Sword Vs. B roll Shield Handling
3. Player A attacks with sword, player B blocks with a sword: A roll Sword Vs. B roll Sword

Armors do not avoid taking damage only absorb it so:
Player A has hit Player B: A roll Damage Vs. B roll Light/Medium/Heavy Armor

Magic example:
1. Player A cast DW, player B is not casting: A roll DW --> B absorb with DW resistance if any (enchanted armors give magic resistance) or B roll DW resistance if any
2. Player A cast DW, player B cast CW: A roll DW Vs. B roll CW
3. Player A cast DW, player B cast DW: A roll DW Vs. B roll DW

In fact the only ways to stop magic is opposing an opposite effect (usually from the opposite way), opposing the same way (mastering a way provide a way to defend against the same way) or relying an passive magic resistance and in fact enchanted items as much as opposed ways buffs provide magic resistance against the opposed way.
But RP situations are tricky so if all else fail and the situation is still worth the chance to try avoiding a spell effect, then use a "luck" or "dodge" roll:

4. Player A cast DW, player B dodges: A roll DW Vs. B roll a dodge.

These are just a few preliminary ideas.

[Rigwyn]

can I ask why you're designing a game to put in a game when there's mechanics readily available for everyone to use?

If you try to see the problems faced by role players from our perspective, then this solution might make more sense.

Problem #1 - Not everyone who plays wishes to level.

Leveling takes a very long time, and for some, it is seen as a very boring chore. Some of us find it far more enjoyable to focus on the role playing side of things and so we do not level that much, or do not level at all. Because of this, there is sometimes a huge difference in skill level. The difference is so large that an untrained character cannot be matched against a fully trained character. This means that if you use stats to resolve fights and you wish to role play a strong character, you have to spend a ridiculous amount of time leveling.

Should only maxed characters be able to play very strong characters?

The majority of players who I have come across who have maxed characters don't RP, they just train and train and train... and train. They don't have interest in RP or don't have the time because they need to train some more.

Typically, you want strong characters to be good, solid players and not people who are going to screw up a role play by saying stupid occ things that don't make sense, derailing it because they can, or just pushing their weight around with their maxed skills and not providing any entertainment in return. As it is now, role-played characters are as powerful as other players allow them to be. There's a sort of balance here as a result.

Problem #2 - The thrill of roleplaying vs thrill of mechanics fights

For many of us who role play, we find it far more immersive and enjoyable to role play our fights. While a fast paced mechanics duel can last for seconds or minutes without the hassle of reading and calculating stuff, they lack depth, description, and detail. I suppose its just a different type of thrill.

Problem #3  - difference of opinion and the need for conflict resolution

As you would imagine, there are sometimes disagreements about the outcomes of rp fights - ones that the mechanics system would automatically resolve. For many of us, we can make mutual judgment calls about success, failure and damage without a problem. The problem is when you try to have a cooperative rp conflict with someone who has very different ideas of what is fair and plausible , it can take the fun out of the game. A set of rules and conventions for resolving this with /roll  is what we are after.

Problem #4 - handicap and difference in stats

There are times when you want to overlook large differences in stats and skill so that you can play with a newer player as if they were much closer to you in stats. To date, there is no way to give a weaker player a "handicap" so that they can participate as if they were close to equal. Roleplayers will sometimes overlook shortcomings in stats and just treat the character as being as strong as they are intended to be. This works well with players who can see eye to eye, but again, tends to not work when players have very different ideas about what is fair and believable.

Lastly, I was thinking that such a system could open up more possibilities for leading events.

I recently lead a small event with a few players where we discovered fissure in the death realm and ventured into it. We encountered a seemingly desolate and threatening underworld city and began to explore it. Upon entering a strange building one by one, the door through which we entered was slammed behind us, and in the complete absence of light, we were attacked by something gigantic, and vile....

During this small event, it occurred to me that if I had planned out an entire campaign complete with traps, challenges, obstacles, and rewards, it could have been epic. It was at this point that I saw how an enhancement like a dicing system plus a formal method for calling success and failure on various feats could enhance the game.

I hope this helps.

[Roled]

* Roled very oocly wants to run into Rigwyn soon - he's itching for a fight 

[Volki]

As a roleplayer, I would never use something like this. This is way too complicated to be any fun. If it's not in the mechanics, very few will want to use it. I definitely don't.

[novacadian]

As a roleplayer, I would never use something like this. This is way too complicated to be any fun. If it's not in the mechanics, very few will want to use it. I definitely don't.

Easy peasy. Just ignore us. 

[Rigwyn]

Well, part of the idea here is that the cooperative RP that many of us do might not be so easy or intuitive for some players. Supporting some form of dicing as an alternative might help to include more players.

As for you Mr. Rolak, Brimstone and Fire is not over yet.  

[Ulfer]

I'm not going to be very popular for saying this but it's been on my mind for a very, very, long time.

I personally feel that this is a bad idea to implement into PS for a number of reasons. The most concerning reason is that this puts a definite wedge between RP'ers and players and shouldn't be encouraged. The reason why some players don't find it easy to be involved in these intuitive RP's is due to the fact that they're not adhering and conforming to the PS world nor the same set of rules that are fundamental to the gameplay of the developing gaming world. If you cannot acknowledge PS and all that in entails do not expect others to acknowledge your created set of rules. This will exclude players into two different factions. A healthy balance should be sought where RP is a compliment that adds to the experience to immerse a player. Gameplay is the backbone of any game and should be respected as such. If you cannot contribute to PS and be involved in the rich content and what it has to offer, I feel you should seek another means in which you can fulfil your wishes. When there are clear divides and groups between RP'ers and gamers like this it can only have a negative effect on the PS community as a whole.

However, how about creating /roll based games at Kada-El's? Give players a reason to socialize and RP and create an experience where in-game rewards pair with RP'ing and interaction. Perhaps even make an official betting game, or maybe games just for fun? This is just a suggestion.

[Eonwind]

I personally feel that this is a bad idea to implement into PS for a number of reasons.

just to clarify: we are not going to implement this system in the PS code because we already support a complex game mechanics. This dice based system is only a way to use the /roll feature to better figure out RPed situations.

However, how about creating /roll based games at Kada-El's? Give players a reason to socialize and RP and create an experience where in-game rewards pair with RP'ing and interaction. Perhaps even make an official betting game, or maybe games just for fun? This is just a suggestion.

We recently released a gameboard at kada-el, try to check and right click on one of the tables in kada's basement you should be able to play the "tic tac toe" game with a friend!

[Ulfer]

I personally feel that this is a bad idea to implement into PS for a number of reasons.

just to clarify: we are not going to implement this system in the PS code because we already support a complex game mechanics. This dice based system is only a way to use the /roll feature to better figure out RPed situations.

Ah, implement may have been a clumsy word to use. I meant to say use a /roll based system to determine in game events that already have an attributed system e.g a duel, or casting magic. 

I'll definitely check out "tic tac toe"

[Ulfer]

I'm sorry for missing your post Rigwyn. This should all be taken as my opinion and nothing else.

#1 You get what you put in. It may be boring at times but the good thing about PS is that there's a variety of things to do. Tired of mining? Well, lets go questing. Don't want to increase axe today? Fine, we'll make them instead. The game is how you make it and I like that aspect of PS. If somebody does not wish to RP then that's their choice and they're not getting the full experience whilst at the same time, if you RP and do not engage in the gameplay mechanics then you're not getting the full experience either. Stats and skills are and have always been a measure of strength for a character/monster. I don't see why some players refuse to acknowledge this and then expect all players to also acknowledge their personal scoring system. You can't RP as a famous weaponsmith if you've never even acquired a crafting book, cannot create weapon handles, or never been involved with any of the NPC smithing factions. You cannot RP as a powerful warrior if you're not skilled in a weapon, or can even put on chainmail, and you hit one-eyed rats for a living. Playing PS should be a rewarding experience and it's the time you put into it that should count. Levelling has never been easier in PS now. Everyone can become someone with some effort. I mean, sure, RP whatever you want but when the time comes to prove it you're character concept will fall flat in an instant. RP and gameplay should be a synergy and not an exception.

#2 That's a personal preference and I have my own opinion on this. Personally, just like #1 it's an easier way to RP glory. Anyone can /roll a fight and type an action and not everyone can duel effectively... it's more than standing still and clicking a stance. PvP takes practice to get absolutely right and there are factors of lag that everyone is subject to. You also have to train in your weapon, get the most out of your armor through enchantments and then there's base stats before you've even began... then there's weapon choice, weapon speed and counteracting your opponent and finding the chink in their defenses. Duels are based on stats and skills and it's no surprise that some find mechanical fights not thrilling... namely pure RP'ers. Acquiring all of these elements to become a powerful character requires interaction with others better equipped to craft weapons/armor and do enhancements etc. Interaction is RP and isn't that what we're trying to encourage? A characters skills also create many aspects of PS and most importantly, the economy of the world itself. With /roll and RP you're cutting out allot of PS' main functions in-game because there's no need for it. If more people take this direction, how can that be healthy for a developing MMO?

#3 Well, if I react aggressively in a RP it will be resolved through the mechanics. No /roll will work and I suspect I'm not alone in this thought. What happens in this instance, where one wants a RP resolution when the other wants a mechanical one? This is where the divide occurs – should both parties now ignore eachother from now on to prevent this occurrence from happening? Do we pretend this RP has never taken place? Do we behave against our characters to have an easier resolution? It's difficult for each group to take the other seriously if both have completely different ideas on how things should be resolved. This creates niches or RP'ers and groups of gamers and then there are complaints of how people are not interacting with one another.

#4 I'm not sure how to address this. If a player is weaker than I am then I teach them the ropes and show them how to level quickly and effectively so they can design and become the character that they want to be. Depending on the player and how they are comfortable playing I'll teach them OOC. There have been cases where I've RP'd the entire 'training' phase. There are even introductory books out there to help. In PS your character can be whatever you want it to be if you have the raw stats and time to prove it.

That sounds absolutely awesome and should be encouraged. We have difference on opinion with the /roll system but I would love to participate in an event like that. That sounds really fun and refreshing.

[Zalya]

I would love to see RP and game play work in synergy. I just don't see it happening though. They are just on entirely different wave lengths right now. It just doesn't make sense for everyone who visits Hydlaa for the first time to know jack squat about everything. What about all of that time they spent before arriving in the city? Of course you can't be a famous weapon smith right off the bat, but must you know next to nothing? I would much rather spend that time I could put into grinding, doing something that I actually enjoy, like RPing, or learning new things as a player. If I don't touch the mechanics, but I do my research, get good at writing sword descriptions, and find a good source of stock props why can't I be a purely RP'd smith? I'd put in just as much time as someone else would, and get far more out of it in my eyes.

And then there is the training factor. PS assumes that all people learn in the same way. It makes absolutely no sense that every single person in the world has to learn from the same trainers. PP, and tria are also broken too. Not much of the system, or anything about any MMO's makes sense when you try to add narrative logic to it. The two just don't mesh. No computer is ever going to be able to think on its feet, and make creative narritive choices on the spot. Not while any of us are alive anyways.

Sure anyone can type /roll and /me, but it takes real skill to make it interesting. Its the difference between

SoandSo swings a sword

and

SoandSo narrowly dodges the blade. Kra spins around using the momentum to heave his own sword down towards kra's attacker with crushing force.

Being descriptive, and reactive in an RP is a skill in and of itself that deserves far more attention than spending 300 hours learning how to smith 300q sabers.  When I see a good RP'd fight, I get excited. I feel like I can picture it. When I see a purely mechanics driven duel, it just looks like two idiots running back and forth, idly swinging weapons in the others direction. Its just not fun.

I personally can't touch the mechanics. It makes me frustrated, and I never feel accomplished when all is said and done. I've tried, and it didn't work for me. So I RP whenever I can. I won't let numbers define my character as much as I won't let numbers define me. Stats and rules should bend to the story, not the other way around. Only a real, human player can do that. That is what makes RP so engaging to me. The flexibility, the creativity, and the reliability. If I wanted to play a game for the game play alone, I would not play Planeshift.

I am glad though that these points are being brought up. I love to hear other points of view. It often times gives me a new perspective on things. Perhaps we only save the dice conventions for special player run events?

[Rigwyn]

Perhaps we only save the dice conventions for special player run events?

That or maybe use the mechanics one step at a time? Another solution might be to have the rp fight in question and launch an attack emote followed by a single attack? This would allow for use of both rp and mechanics, at least for things that the mechanics can account for.

There are still some kinds of attacks and actions that would need to be called by players - such as an attempt to strangle someone, to heal a specific illness, or to hex someone or something.

I'm glad this discussion is taking place, and I'm glad to hear differing opinions and points of view on the topic.