Author Topic: to all those in support of open PKing (my first last and only opinion)  (Read 6530 times)

Pestilence

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« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2005, 05:52:45 pm »
hhmm I don\'t know I saw a beginning post PK and get jailed for ten days. hmm well for a first offence I would like that I guess, but what if you comitted ten murders and your caught again??? Does this mean your character gets executed? And how do you work around the deathrealm then?

I\'m just sayng murder doesn\'t get punished lightly, but there in lies a problem when having a game.

derwoodly

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« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2005, 02:25:55 am »
LOL
Gedankenexperiment!
LOL!
I have not tried to look it up, but that should be in the dictionary.

I suspect most griefers will not delete there character just because they are jailed for a few hours, or days even.  They will most likely stay logged on, go afk, play their X-box, eat, sleep or some other bodily functions and come back later to play.

I would also like to point out what should be obvious, \"griefers\" are not some special breed of people.    They are people, usually just trying to get even.  When they go to get even, the other person will most likely see this as \"griefing\".

T0rk

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« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2005, 05:01:12 pm »
*is scared of all the people begging to be able kill other people*

derwoodly

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« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2005, 07:34:19 am »
That is exactly the point.

The down side to PvP is that  the fun is taken out of the lower levels.  The up side is the \"end game\" is more challenging.

PvP is a way of keeping the danger factor in a MMORPG. The typical game starts with having  just about anything kill you in the game.  You run a lot and you die alot.  After a few levels the game gets a lot easier, and the leveling treadmill begins. With PvP you never reach a \"safe\" place.  Idealy all levels of play would be fun, and every game developer has there own theory on how to do that.  

DAoC is an example of what I am talking about.  They created a two part game.  The first part is a PvE.  You have fun by slaying Mobs.  Then once you have \"finished\" with the PvE you go on to the PvP in the realm vs realm part.  If it had worked DAoC would be fun at all levels.  As you can tell by the *if* part, I do not think DAoC is a great game.

I do not think I have all the answers, more than anything I enjoy the debate.  My personal feelings is that games like EQ are going in the wrong dirrection, and games like WoW are going in the right dirrection.

shorty13

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« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2005, 10:49:04 am »
Okay everyone, look at my post named \"Player government/thief skills/other stuff\" in the wish list
There are two types of people in this world: The Pinky and the Brain.
Which one are you?

derwoodly

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« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2005, 02:51:33 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by shorty13
Okay everyone, look at my post named \"Player government/thief skills/other stuff\" in the wish list



This is the post ----->

Quote

Okay my idea is pretty big. Once this happens, this game will be awesome. It could also happen in the near future (like next release or one after).

Key ideas needed to be implemented:
1) thief/assasin skills (pickpocket, backstab, hide in shadows, etc.)
2) jobs. especially a \'city guard\' type job. There should also be a limit to this kind of job so everyone can\'t be in it making thieving/being an assasin impossible. (but many people could still be)
3) a system where if you were pickpocketed or backstabbed AND survived the entire encounter (including any fighting resulting from the backstabbing/pickpocketing) a window would appear asking you if you would like to report this to the guards. After a person has been reported like 3-5 times, they would be subjected to the \'guards\' attacking them at free will or by other citizens.


Oy vie,  
Thieves will be very happy if they are the only one in the game who can walk up and backstab someone while everyone else has to issue a duel request first.  This would be hard core PvP if this how it is done.  I like PvP, but I would not want this.

Your system allows 50th level thieves to backstab newbies  right after they get off the boat.  It would also allow you to kill merchant type players who did not train up their combat skills.

How did you envision your system working?  I see only happy thieves with this system, and even they will not be too happy when they are backstabed by another thief.

Quote

EXAMPLE:
Someone is a thief. He can pickpocket/backstab anyone he wishes, but can\'t do this to the same person within a certain amount of time. If they fail or are noticed by that person when pickpocketing, the \"victim\" can react by fighting. If being backstabbed and survive, a person can also fight back.
...
If Moogie the great is reading this, when would something like this become possible?




maxben

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« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2005, 10:58:06 pm »
I dont see what the big deal is.
PKing is part of the game, just make it so that you cant kill aperson that is X (maybe 5) or less levels under you.
Assisns, if they are made, would be exempt from this rule if they are given a job to kill the person (that means, recieve mony for it).
And the guards attackin you to kill you for PKing someone is a dumb idea, instead they should have to try to kill you (givin you the ability to escape), yet if they do kill you, you go to jail for, I belive, a full real day would suffice. Of course, the punishment shoul get like an hour longer each time you are caught.
And lastly, there should be PK friendly town. Meaning, an added town where PKers can use as a hideout from the law yet still all the abilities of a town (of course that would make the town very dangerous for th PKers themselves so they might think twice about PKing and goin into

Well, maybe ts not that simple, but ppl should have the right to PK if they want to. I think its cool.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 10:58:49 pm by maxben »

Ragnar-GD

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« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2005, 02:37:31 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by derwoodly
I do not think I have all the answers, more than anything I enjoy the debate.  My personal feelings is that games like EQ are going in the wrong dirrection, and games like WoW are going in the right dirrection.


Could you explain in deeper detail, what you mean with
1. \"WoW\" is going into the right direction
and
2. Whereas EQ is not?
Everyone should make their own MMORPG

derwoodly

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« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2005, 08:39:19 pm »
Ragnar-GD,

Thanks for reading the post.  That comment by me was very subjective.  

EQII, seems to be focusing on keeping the monsters (mobs) very strong and forcing you to play the game for several hours a day just to see small amouts of progress.  They think by making the game very taxing they will keep the game adicting.

WoW, lets you to level as fast as possible to the upper levels.  And lets you log off for a little while and still be able to feel like you are advancing.  It has a much more casual game like feel.
[edit: sp]
« Last Edit: June 12, 2005, 12:01:54 am by derwoodly »

Rilar

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« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2005, 02:14:09 pm »
I am fully with Mystiqq and his suggestion about UO.

When someone gets killed, he goes through the DR and comes back. But as he saw who killed him, it is realistic to mark the murderer.
So the murderer should be attacked automatically by the guards in special areas like plaza. Outside the safe area there should be a range, to where the guards can here you (now shouting is about 100m). If someone gets attacked within that range and types /sos or /guards or something alike, the guards start and head towards you. When they reach you the game should determine who started the fight and let the guards attack the aggressor. If you are murdered till then and they see the marked murderer, they attack him and hunt him to a defined range (end of area probably).
If the murderer gets catched, he should loose some skillpoints (his finger or something else was chopped),has to pay some money and do some labour.
A wall of shame would be useful at this point, too.
How much of each will be determined by a \"crimecounter\".
The crimecounter decreases with time (as the people forget the crimes), but the higher the crimecounter is, the slower it goes down with time. The second way to lower the counter is to buy \"indulgences\" in a temple.
The third way could be to do some good deeds (as quests).

To protect newbies it is essentially to implement a limit to which they cant be attacked. In Diablo 2 the protection is to level 7.
In PS, I would propose protection to skilllevel 10 on a weaponskill. But as there will be some wise guy who wont skill weapons because of this protection, the protection should be repealed as a char gets his 30 level overall.

About thieves and assassines:
It is not logically to mark someone who successfully backstabs another player. Backstab means that the other player dont know who killed him. With that, the crimecounter should not ascend.
So it is with successfull pickpocketing. Open robbery on the contrary is an open crime, naturally.

How to get assassines and thieves into jail?
At this point a system of justice should be implemented. The medieval justice worked as following:
There were a judge and two honorary assessors.
It rested with the plaintiff to submit evidence. This evidence could be gained through complaints of other players about the accused.
At last the jugde and the assessors vote if the accused is blameworthy. Than the judge finds him guilty or not and if he is, the judge imposes a sanction.

In PS this sanction could be to higher the crimecounter to a certain level. After that the game could automatically choose the defined punishment (as stated above).

What do you think of it?

cu,
Amogorkon
« Last Edit: June 13, 2005, 02:17:23 pm by Rilar »
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Perkins

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« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2005, 12:00:40 pm »
Well, there wouldn\'t need to be much for a judge since actions are (presumably) recorded.  It would be fairly easy to determine who did what to whom.  There could be a way to appeal the automatic decision to a human...  Of course, Humans don\'t like people wasting their time...  So better not to do that frivolously.

Guard patrols is a decent idea.  I\'ve seen it used fairly successfully in both text based and 2D MUDs, along with a good number of offline RPGs.  Commit a crime in LOS of a guard and become subject to pursuit and imprisonment.  Could even have a \"bounty hunters\" guild people could join that would pay players to bring in known criminals.  Have guards patrol the roads between cities as well.  Newbs and merchants could travel with them in relative safety.  The possibility of open player killing would also somewhat reduce the need for sophisticated monster AI.

There should, of course, be a fairly stiff penalty for committing crimes.  Jail time, or forced labour is a good start, but not much of a deterant from going right back to a life of crime at any reasonable level.  Losing skills is a good idea, but the whole, \"We cut off your hand\" bit seems a bit cheesy...  One thing I saw done fairly successfully at one point was making skills based 99.9% on practice.  Training was used to get a start in a skill, or to increase skills quickly.  After that, simply practicing would increase one\'s proficiency.  By the same token however, if one did not practice one\'s skills, they would eventually fade away.  Someone convicted of something minor, such as petty theft, would then spend a little while in jail, and have to spend an hour or so building back up.  Someone convicted of murder, or armed robbery would spend a lot more time in jail, and would have to put more effort into building back up.  If the system were set up on an exponential scale, so that higher skill levels required more practice to maintain, that would help prevent the development of \"uber criminals\" of the type that plague some games, taking on armed parties and fighting the guards to a standstill.  It could still happen, but when they got caught, they\'d emerge from jail as wasted individuals who would be no threat to anybody for a considerable length of time.  That way they couldn\'t just go out and do it again right away.
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Rilar

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« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2005, 03:37:13 pm »
Quote
Well, there wouldn\'t need to be much for a judge since actions are (presumably) recorded. It would be fairly easy to determine who did what to whom. There could be a way to appeal the automatic decision to a human... Of course, Humans don\'t like people wasting their time... So better not to do that frivolously.


I agree that actions will be recorded, but where is the rp if a thief could not do pickpocketing without beeing arrested within a short time although nobody except the machine recognized it?
So I think, it is a good compromise to have human judges and an automatic law. I assume there will be some case where the AI cannot act adequate because it cannot record motivations (for example, when someone pays a murderer to kill a person) where it is good that human judges exist (as you said).
Also, in the middleage beeing a judge was a profession. And I think beeing a judge is a great honor (not mentioning the payment)... the perfect job for GMs :-)

Bye,
amogorkon
What is a king without folk? A man with a crown on the head. - Rilar

derwoodly

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« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2005, 06:41:17 am »
If you read Paxx\'s post about open PvP in Planeshift, you should understand the problems with having GM\'s as Judges.  GM\'s are not perfect, the chances of everyone liking the GM\'s decission is slim to none.  

Planeshift\'s leveling system presents a real problem for implimenting game rules based on levels.  If you put all your points into crafting armor then you will not be able to defend yourself against someone who has a similar amout of total progresion points.  PS is going for more of a PvE feel to protect crafters and Roleplayers.

Having skills decrease over time discourages the casual game player.  For many players PS may not be there main MMORPG that they play.  having time based skills will heavly favor the dreded power gamer.  

I don\'t like the idea of have PvP take the place of good monster AI.   Both NPC\'s and monsters should have the best possible intelegence you can give them.  The better the AI the beter the game.  Having ultra dumb computer oponents that have to cheat just to be efective is one of my pet pieves and is sure reduce the overall feel of the game.  You work hard and making the world pull you into it with 3D graphics and realistic physics, the AI needs to be just as good.

Guards are good, but only as good as the AI, and there is always some kind of exploit of one kind or another.  For instance if you one shot kill someone, do the guards attack or not?  If your defense is ultra high can the guards even hit you?  Do you gain exp if a guard kills you?  Can another player attack you while the guards are attacking you?

Rilar

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« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2005, 08:41:00 am »
Quote
If you read Paxx\'s post about open PvP in Planeshift, you should understand the problems with having GM\'s as Judges. GM\'s are not perfect, the chances of everyone liking the GM\'s decission is slim to none.


That is why I suggested to have two honorary assessors as well. The two assessors should be selected by random by the game. It is quite easy to count all players, give them numbers and select two by random. Beeing selected, the two Players should be able to choose, whether they want to be assessors or not. Then the two players should appear at a defined place within a reasonable time. If one does not, the trial has to be suspended.
The effect is: having three different persons who choose whether the accused is guilty or not, it is not only a GM`s job. My proposal to let the judge choose the level of the punishment could be modified: If the accused is found guilty, the three could choose a level of punishment by themselves. I imagine a range from 0 (not guilty) to 100 (lifelong punishment). The three choose a number out of it and the game will calculate the average. The crimecounter of the culprit is set to the resulting number and the game chooses based on the crimecounter the following punishment.

Quote
Having skills decrease over time discourages the casual game player. For many players PS may not be there main MMORPG that they play. having time based skills will heavly favor the dreded power gamer.


You are right. When a person can see dropping his skillpoints, it would be very disencouraging. But what about a very slow decrease, which you realise only in days or weeks periods? And to eleminate the demotivation, the game could visibly remember the highest skilllevels achieved. Not enough, these maximum skilllevels can be reached easily by practising the skills again. So the lowering of the skills is only to see as a notifier for the player which skills he doesnt use. That would be more realistic (as you forget over time) , but also encourages players to specialize in specific areas of skills. That would also prevent unrealistic combinations of skills which I have seen in many other games.

Quote
I don\'t like the idea of have PvP take the place of good monster AI. Both NPC\'s and monsters should have the best possible intelegence you can give them.


I vote also for the best possible intelligence for the AI. But I think that guarding could be a good job-opportunity for players. It is not recommended to substitute the AI, but wouldnt it be cool to fight with cityguards together against a pack of bandits?
We would only need a board at a central place where you can go and see what jobs are open. You get money each time you catch (kill) someone the AI has marked. Cityguards only get money when they do the job inside the given city while headhunters could make their job also in the wilderness.

Quote
For instance if you one shot kill someone, do the guards attack or not?


I would say, it depends on the fact if the victim has seen the attack or not. If not, the aggressor is not marked, so the AI wont attack. If yes, the contrary is the case.

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If your defense is ultra high can the guards even hit you?


The guards should adept on the level whom they are attacking. That would be a fair compromise between having fun (the chance to escape) and justice.
That should answer the question about the defense.

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Do you gain exp if a guard kills you?


Why should you gain xp when you get killed? The contrary should more be the case...

Quote
Can another player attack you while the guards are attacking you?


What would the police do, if you would take out a weapon in order to kill a person which got caught by them? You would be attacked also.
I would propose that all cityguards form one local group. So NPC and PC would attack together, but only in order to \"catch\" the aggressor. Never interfere with the law... (may it only in order to help  :rolleyes: )

Bye,
amogorkon
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derwoodly

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« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2005, 01:23:36 pm »
Currently the dueling method of PvP that PS has is realy not PvP at all.  It is good that it is there, but it does not give the game the same feel as a Shadowbane (this is not bad in my opinion).

Implimenting an option to attack players who turn  down your duel request would be a form of PvP light.  If the attacker was automatically sent to the wall of shame for a week or month (this means you could not loot your victom either).  You would still get pkers.  It seems like a long time but keep in mind you have 4 charter slots and can still play WoW durring that month.  

If instead of going dirrectly to the wall of shame you had to wait for some kind of court to form I would agree that it would be more of a PvP game.  I have some questions reguarding how it would work.

could you kill more players while you were waiting for your court case? or would you be stuck in a purgetory while players organized?  If the \"Judge\" just ignored the claim, would the player be stuck for ever?

Quote
Originally posted by amogorkon

That is why I suggested to have two honorary assessors as well. The two assessors should be selected by random by the game. It is quite easy to count all players, give them numbers and select two by random. Beeing selected, the two Players should be able to choose, whether they want to be assessors or not. Then the two players should appear at a defined place within a reasonable time. If one does not, the trial has to be suspended.
The effect is: having three different persons who choose whether the accused is guilty or not, it is not only a GM`s job. My proposal to let the judge choose the level of the punishment could be modified: If the accused is found guilty, the three could choose a level of punishment by themselves. I imagine a range from 0 (not guilty) to 100 (lifelong punishment). The three choose a number out of it and the game will calculate the average. The crimecounter of the culprit is set to the resulting number and the game chooses based on the crimecounter the following punishment.


I really ment to say, if you kill the guard, my bad.

Quote

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Do you gain exp if a guard kills you?


Why should you gain xp when you get killed? The contrary should more be the case...


I mentioned this because the NPC guard is very popular on this forum, but if you can kill guard and get experience from it then, the guards may be dead when you need them to arrest the Pkers.