PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => PvP,PK and Thieving => Topic started by: L7 on February 19, 2002, 07:47:13 pm
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From reading some of the previous posts, it seems that alot of players reading this board (and maybe the developers? Hrrm, not sure.) do not know what the difference between \"Pking\" and \"PvP\" is. The term \"PK\" came about in UO when there was unrestricted PvP+ tags on all characters, such that anyone could be killed by anyone else. It was often seen as something \"bad\" to do, because in UO your status is/was determined by the items that you had and all the items that you had were left on your corpse when you died. So that \"PKers\" could kill someone, take thier goods. The victim\'s items were lost, and the \"PK\" got the nice items with zero work put into it at the expense of the player that they killed. Hence, Player Killer. Hence the negative connotation. Hence the success of games that disallowed pking, namely EQ.
PvP on the other hand is Player versus Player Combat. This is differnet than \"PvM\" (player versus monster/mob) in a sense that your opponents are constrained by the same rules as you, span all levels of the intelligence bracket (with no AI), and you can communitcate with them. PvP is consensual, like the duels considered before: both parties must be willing to fight, or at least be willing to accept the consequences of thier death to another player. These systems are usually governed by some type of switch to allow you to fight other players.
From a personal experience, some of my best online moments have been in PvP situations where the challenge is not only comparing the statistics and abilities of my developed characters, but my intelligence of the game system and the familiarness to my character in situations where all of those are needed to overcome real-time, real-intelligent, player controlled opponents. It gives you a better sense of accomplishment when you realize that you have beaten another player instead of a computer controlled AI drone. Then again, I was never one to play the computer chess games. =/
Just dropped in to post to try to clarify the differences and stereotypes.
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So thats where the term was coined
We learn something new every day :))
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You know what? I agree with you there. I wonder how much of PVP has to be hardcoded. I mean, you folks working on this project are in the unique position to work on this more like an experiment and less like a one-shot-at-perfection commercial enterprise. The ability to *possibly* test out multiple ideas for the social aspect of the game is quite interesting. I don\'t suppose one of the demos will lets us kill each other hmm? Humans do make the best monsters, so I understand.
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As PVp is concerned i must agree,Players if played correctly make great advasary\'s.They are able to use various actions spells,weapons,timing,items in ways an Ai doesnt at this time.
Myself and a few friends have been trying to Find a way.To keep combat interesting.Where every fight is a battle at any given level not merely a hack and slash.
In a game such as this it is very hard to work realistic death in due to lag or disconnection.
MOst players can handle dying when they lose.But dying from an outside source.....
In some aspects i agree with the AD&D system regarding constitution you can be raised this many times.
If somebody decides to bother with you.When Death becomes like a walk in the park in any world people throw caution to the winds.
Why because they really have nothing to lose.Now people may say items.But in effect thats not very true.Given unlimited life it becomes a rat race.
You get people that have hundreds of items and money.Simply because time and death are no longer bearing.
Imagine for a moment unlimited time and life.No reason to fear anyone because anything you lost you could simply replaceit.It is my belief that as much time as you spent getting back certain items.A player could also start a new character.
The cream of the crop would rise to the top.As they always do but in a more realistic way also it would keep those that dont deserve to be there out.
But if this were the way.
How do we make it fair to all,concerning lag and dissconnection?
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I see a lot log logic in what Lenric is saying, if there is nothing to lose than death is meaningless and there is no fun to the game. Read the following:
\"Take death for example.
A great deal of our effort goes into avoiding it.
We make extraordinary efforts to delay it and often consider
its intrusion a tragic event.
Yet we\'d find it hard to live without it.
Death gives meaning to our lives. It
gives importance and value to time.
Time would become meaningless if there were too much of it.
If death were indefinitely put off, the human psyche would end
up, well, like the gambler in the \"Twilight Zone\" episode. \"
- Our Lady Peace, \"RK on Death\"
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Well said! Well said indeed! Death gives meaning, definition, and the value of time. What if everyone lives on forever like the show \"Highlander\" (what ever did happen to that?). People would be blowing up planes for the hell of it. Heck jail wouldn\'t scare anyone and the \"death\" penalty would be out of the door.
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lol nightbird you\'ve caused too much thinking in me small mind...
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i dont think one should ahve to restart a new char....that would jsut piss me off and i think i woulndt play after i died...
maybe instead of having to start over they could just suffer soem loss of a few lvls instead of the whole char..as i do think u ahve a wonderful point..but losing a char is a bit much..some people spend alot of timeon chars..
if it were like that the game would be dominated by 1 clan. 1 clan that would have about 100 crappy fighters that just all \"gang bang\" the high lvl fighters that dont wish to join them.then once he is dead they need not fear him? things would get crazy.once this group os jackasses has the good decent fighters dead and dotn want to remake thier char then they start training more and more....then get bored and start playing thier littl game in town..losing a member here and there taht got caught... eventualy maybe they catch the top smithers then poof doubt they would wanna redo all their hard work so some lame kid can kill em and make em lose thier char again. so noone smiths...wonderful...
granted things ive said are taken a bit extreme but hell...anyhting can happen eh?
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lol meket said \"gang bang\"
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Originally posted by meket
i dont think one should ahve to restart a new char....that would jsut piss me off and i think i woulndt play after i died...
maybe instead of having to start over they could just suffer soem loss of a few lvls instead of the whole char..as i do think u ahve a wonderful point..but losing a char is a bit much..some people spend alot of timeon chars..
if it were like that the game would be dominated by 1 clan. 1 clan that would have about 100 crappy fighters that just all \"gang bang\" the high lvl fighters that dont wish to join them.then once he is dead they need not fear him? things would get crazy.once this group os jackasses has the good decent fighters dead and dotn want to remake thier char then they start training more and more....then get bored and start playing thier littl game in town..losing a member here and there taht got caught... eventualy maybe they catch the top smithers then poof doubt they would wanna redo all their hard work so some lame kid can kill em and make em lose thier char again. so noone smiths...wonderful...
granted things ive said are taken a bit extreme but hell...anyhting can happen eh?
I disagree but understand why you might think that.
There is really no way it could happen like that.
With a few level limits for beginners to get to know the game.Also unless theve done there homework they wouldny know who to strike.With a band of that size wandering around im pretty sure other clans would team up to wipe them out totally.
Also how many new arrivals have 100 friends to join there so called clan.Most people that would be crappy warriors would be trying to improve there skills not get killed.
And if your dumb enough to stand your ground against 100 you deserve to die from stupidity.
You could always see them coming and depart the area.Being as your higher lvl and know the area.
True a few people would die lose thier characters and have to start new ones.But in the long run it would improve the world.Also as I said before clerics and priests could raise you for a certain time.
imagine if you will this....
Your clan of crappy warriors was started by you killing all of them because you were better than them,Now instead of dying they all want to kill you over and over again.Because hey their crappy and youve got better stuff than them.Hey they got nothing to lose if you kill them they simply restart but if they kill you .....
Now theres 100 of them and they can also train it just makes the rat race continue with people that have no ability to stay alive.
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i wasnt thinking about abunch of n00bs commin up and forming a clan....
i meant something more along the lines of people in runescapes n00by killers....ya know the high lvl guys create a seperate accounts and get soem friends to do same.
then who cares if those die right? cuz everyone wants to have 4 char per acct. then they will aslo have thier main id to go back to.
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Hmm mind telling us whats the point in having n00b killers.I dont think your gonna be able to tell anyones lvl like that other game.Also with lvl restrictions on before you may participate in any rpking it kinda gets rid of that as well.
So basically people wont do it like that other game. The fighting system will be different not just button clicking.
So lets see they work these noob killers out for a bit do the quests that allow them to PVSP.
Then there characters kinda suck because theve been working on more than one.Also they cant seem to afford all of the equipment needed.
hmm then they start recruiting people to kill other people.....
Sounds to me no matter there numbers working like that against an organized town they would lose lets see ..they start killing people um shop keepers refuse to sell to them guards begin hunting them ,,these are noobs correct.
No offense I know you know this game is gonna be different than rs but im not sure you realize just how much rs was lacking and how different this will be.
If you would like to play a game I believe this will be similer too try baldurs gate....
What i really think is the problem is that you think perhaps your gonna have a high lvl person and then gonna be hunted down and killed or something...maybe maybe not....listen though if its just random pking you all want make it in the arena have rpking outside of it....
But in the arena you can have battles,wars and duels just like in the world think of it as a training ground...except you dont die you fight to unconciousness or something.
Now in the rest of the world fighting goes on normally you die you die,however with spells such as contingency,or items that come into affect after you die plus having clerics,and priests around to pull your butt out of the fire....you need not fear death as much however it is still an option and you will think of it as so in your battles.
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ok wait....before u were waying that u wanted it whre when u die u lose ur char for good...start oiver....now u say jstu fight till unconciousness in arena..?
thus u want the pkers to have hte abilit y to kill ppl rewarding they\'er shittyness? people want fighting only in arena\'s so tell me why rewrd the pkers with killing ppl?
an dyes i knew rs sucked i know the game is gona be a bunch different.but NONE of use know till it comes out so dont act liek u know how it is bro.and i doubt il lbe hunted ;) ill tend ot keep to myself in game ;)
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Sorry if you misunderstood me
I mean for those that want to battle to practice per say but not die completely and forever to fight in the arena till first blood or unconcious or something.
For all those out and about in the tunnels and caves plains and fields really adventuring dying happens once well in truth it could happen quite often as long as you had someone to bring you back to life.
But if the time limit or whatever ran out poof your dead you could even have the option to log out and get help from someone.
Now also you may die in combat here and there but are you really dead....in alot of games your not really dead when your on the edge of your life just when your negitive 10 hit points or so.
So a friend could perhaps dash in and grab you dragging you back to someone that could help.
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these things about death and stuff confuse my small mind...i think instaed of debating of how we\'d like it to be il jsut wait for the game to come and see...
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I dont know if anyone reads this, or if there is going to be PvP in PS, but I will copy+paste some thoughts that were so eloquently stated by another Pvper. ;)
He was talking about Shadowbane[SB] on the Darktide[DT] (DT is the Asheron\'s call pvp+ server) being the \"next big game\" since all of the pvp guilds and players were going to meet there and establish themselves therein.
\"i think a lot of DTers who think sb is gonna be the shit will be pretty disappointed..
First of all, it\'s gonna be a class system, which has both good and bad points going for it. The main \"bad\" thing is it doesn\'t lead to balanced 1vs1 pvp and they wont even try to balance it in that way. The good thing is it gives you lots of different character types to play.
The thing that made ac pvp so good was the lack of defined classes. All chars can heal themselves which is essential to good pvp and you don\'t see this in any other game unless you go back to uo. For pvp to be really good, you have to have do-it-all characters. They have to be able to deal a fair amount of damage, take some and heal themselves. Within that it doesnt matter if they\'re melees or mages or what but if they can\'t do that then it wont be as much fun.
After i left ac i played eq and then daoc. While the pvp in those games was generally fun, classes take out any skill factor associated with pvp and i suspect this will happen with sb too. i played a cleric in eq so i basically hit the heal key in pvp (i know it takes skill). In daoc i played a bard, so i mezzed, healed and did the occasional dd shout. Point is, everyone in the group was doing 1 or 2 things max and that\'s all they had to think about. Sure, some groups worked better together than others but in the end it was nothing like ac pvp.
The other thing that\'ll be kinda gay in sb is the numbers game. The devs tell us how they envision these huge battles etc. Well, having played daoc and seeing huge battles in that game i don\'t see how much different they could be in sb. I don\'t care what kinda engine or how leet it supposedly is, having 100 players on the screen casting spells is gonna cause massive client-side lag. I played daoc with a athlonXP 1800, 768megs of ddr and a geforce3 and i still got bad slowdowns at times. Ppl with 1ghz and geforce 2s were crying ;p
While these huge battles can be fun at times, there is nothing more satisfying that small-scale pvp. I dont care how good a gamer you are, in a battle with a couple hundred ppl in the immediate area, whether you get ganked or not has nothing to do with skill. All it takes is 1 caster out of the opposing 100 to pick u out of a crowd and hit the nuke key. That\'s why people didn\'t mind dying in that game, it had nothing to do with skill and the same will hold true in sb.
That\'s not to say sb won\'t be fun (for a while). But holding territory and castles for the sake of nothing else gets old after you\'ve proven you can do it for a while. The game is gonna have to have a lot more than that to keep people interested in it or it\'ll end up like daoc. I\'m actually more excited about ac2 than i am sb now...\"
-Scytale
Hope that was as enlightening to you game designers as it was to me. ^_^
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As said before, there will be at least an ability to fight other players.
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It seems the problem everyone is having with the losing is people getting disconneted/disconnecting theirselves and since i have a dial-up modem and get disconnected about every hour or so......it is really hard to be able to fight fairly, SO why not stop the problem where it comes in......when a person is disconnected their character stays where it was (well, not actually THERE but thats where they reappear) and the person they are fighting can choose to walk or wait :D 8) 8o
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along with gettin disconnected comes the prob of people X\'ing out of the game..which makes setting stuff like that a pain in the ass..how to stop those from X\'ing out yet those that get disconnected shouldnt sit around and die for shitty connection.. :O ..why is everything gotta be so hard? :O
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i\'ve found cussing at the modem dosn\'t help...
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Hmm the only graphical game i know you can eaisly x out in is rs or other java games.
Other games you kinda gotta exit first.
Unless your talking about people pulling thier connections.
Some people will have to log out from time to time.Plus getting disconnected sux.Ive seen many a weaker fighter make kills simply because thier opponet got Disconnected.
I feel it is a problem but it is one im willing to deal with until a solution is available.
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I think you should DIE when you die. It makes the experience much more intense, and if we\'re focusing on actual roleplaying, rather than hack\'n\'slash, I think this will improve it. If we were focusing on hack\'n\'slash, it\'s far more debatable. I never did get around to playing a \"Hardcore\" character on Diablo II...
Death being \"real\" would mean a further reduction in the amount of PK\'ing going on, if we don\'t explicitly ban it, because you know that if you kill someone and wind up with a bounty on your head, that\'s a BAD THING. You\'re not just going to get the shit kicked out of you a few times... You\'re going to DIE when some higher level character decides that it\'d be fun to go after your bounty.
Also, arena combat and duels is a great idea. In such settings, it should be possible to set the terms of the match. ie, to the touch, until someone gives, or to the death. The game should be able to tell the difference. A fight until forfeit would add some really interesting aspects when combined with paxx\'s idea about not having a numerical representation of your players current health. That way you\'re really uncertain about whether that next blow will do you in, and you\'ve gotta weigh how much this victory is worth to you against the fact that you MIGHT die (likely only if the healers can\'t get to you in time, but if your opponent does ENOUGH damage...).
Also, death would make the whole marriage & family portion of the game, disscussed in a few places, MUCH more interesting; you could actually be preparing your next character.
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Originally posted by Dumb Woob
lol nightbird you\'ve caused too much thinking in me small mind...
lol i understand what they are saying but boy does my head hurt now.
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Originally posted by L7
From reading some of the previous posts, it seems that alot of players reading this board (and maybe the developers? Hrrm, not sure.) do not know what the difference between \"Pking\" and \"PvP\" is. The term \"PK\" came about in UO when there was unrestricted PvP+ tags on all characters, such that anyone could be killed by anyone else. It was often seen as something \"bad\" to do, because in UO your status is/was determined by the items that you had and all the items that you had were left on your corpse when you died. So that \"PKers\" could kill someone, take thier goods. The victim\'s items were lost, and the \"PK\" got the nice items with zero work put into it at the expense of the player that they killed. Hence, Player Killer. Hence the negative connotation. Hence the success of games that disallowed pking, namely EQ.
PvP on the other hand is Player versus Player Combat. This is differnet than \"PvM\" (player versus monster/mob) in a sense that your opponents are constrained by the same rules as you, span all levels of the intelligence bracket (with no AI), and you can communitcate with them. PvP is consensual, like the duels considered before: both parties must be willing to fight, or at least be willing to accept the consequences of thier death to another player. These systems are usually governed by some type of switch to allow you to fight other players.
From a personal experience, some of my best online moments have been in PvP situations where the challenge is not only comparing the statistics and abilities of my developed characters, but my intelligence of the game system and the familiarness to my character in situations where all of those are needed to overcome real-time, real-intelligent, player controlled opponents. It gives you a better sense of accomplishment when you realize that you have beaten another player instead of a computer controlled AI drone. Then again, I was never one to play the computer chess games. =/
Just dropped in to post to try to clarify the differences and stereotypes.
well put i really couldn\'t of said it better myself
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not trying to nitpick, but the PK acronym originated in MUDs
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As for me PK and PvP should work like this:
If someone kills another player without his permission :P
he becomes a criminal and would be chaced by guards in any city for some time (maybe 3h and maybe in some places outside the city too).
After PK, victim dies in a normal way and loses equipment and stats (PK can steal all of his victims stuff).
But after doing it, PK will be forced to live outside the city for about those 3h.
if he commits another PK in that time he becomes a murderer ----> UO.
Murderer should last for about 9h, then he becomes a criminal and after next 3h he returns to law abiding character...
As for PvP, if both side would agree to fight, winner should get little expirience for his fight and loser shouldn\'t lose anything.
As for guild wars, itr should work as PK but winners shouldn\'t be chaced by guards (but they can steal the stuff).
Maybe it should change if for example: chaos guild attacks guards or something.
Then chaos should be chaced by guards for every kill.
Sorry for my english.
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a wise man who was very skilled in the art of pvp once said
\"a online game with out PvP is just a fancy chat channel\"
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That\'s right!
I would also say that PvP should be \"open\" not only at arenas but everywhere...