About GM event to save husband by building a bridge to island in BD abyss

[bilbous]

If you let people choose whether they live or die, the majority will live at all costs. Would it be better if Dakkru appeared and punished such cowardly behaviour? That is always possible as by deciding to live you are stealing her tithe. Perhaps there should be godly curses/boons of uncertain duration that can be bestowed by the GMs in such events. What is the point of having gods if they do not abuse their powers capriciously?

[cdmoreland]

There are those that think/treat PS as a table-top rpg and those of us that use the mechanics of this 3d game to enjoy it.

I think the god-modding is done by the tt rpg's who have no real experience in the mechanics of PS.

The GM's have been good about balancing battle/dangerous rp with events that are more just rp such as the gambling in Oja.

[Eredin]

OK everyone, please step back and take a deep breath.

First, please stop with the personal insults. those are never helpful.

Second, please consider that GMs and Devs are first and foremost people. That means differences in beliefs, RP style and many other things. Let's please remove the strong dev/gm vs player overtone because that tries to force us all into the same mould and we do not all agree on everything. And that's ok.

Furthermore In my experience working with the other devs and gms I have found that most all are willing to compromise, learn, and improve.

Let's please temper our responses with consideration for the other people participating in this thread.

It seems to me that the summary of this entire thread could go something like this :

Damola : I felt uncomfortable with the way that RP went. Could we in future use a combat resolution system to avoid misunderstandings? There was a player thread a while back that talked about a system of cooperating in combat RPs when the players have different styles. Maybe something like that?

GM : sure, I'll consider that.

I believe this shows consideration by both parties. Am I missing anything of relevance?

[Volki]

GMs should have full control of outside forces in an RP. If an outside force causes a player character's death, then that's just how it is. This is a game, after all, not story writing.

But there was this one GM who went about making characters fart while they were having their own little conversations. No plot, just immature pranking. Annoying and not at all funny.

So, GMs can't godmod because they are GMs. They can however powerplay (take control of a player's character). It's up to the GM to be aware when an action would be powerplaying. In Damola's case, it is not. She remained in a dangerous environment, and it was that environment which killed her. No godmodding involved since no other character directly caused her death. Not powerplaying because Damola's character wasn't forced to any action of her own will.

I propose that if Damola survived the blast of wind, she would have to be godmodding by definition, in this case being unaffected by negative consequences (unkillable).

edit

Re-evaluating... Since I wasn't there, I assumed that the situation had gone like this: creaky bridge, wind picks up, Damola runs onto bridge, wind blasts, Damola falls and dies. It would have been better if instead of immediately killing Damola, she should have been allowed to react to being blown by the wind. She could have grabbed onto the bridge, used magic to somehow save herself, or done a /roll to see if she survived.

[Rigwyn]

Re-evaluating... Since I wasn't there, I assumed that the situation had gone like this: creaky bridge, wind picks up, Damola runs onto bridge, wind blasts, Damola falls and dies. It would have been better if instead of immediately killing Damola, she should have been allowed to react to being blown by the wind. She could have grabbed onto the bridge, used magic to somehow save herself, or done a /roll to see if she survived.

This is exactly the point. Give the player a chance to play their role and attempt to work through the conflict. Don't just cut them off and decide what will happen ( killing or shoving the player is forced action. ) Anyone who understands role play well will not need this point explained to them.

Something to consider would be to look into putting a group together to research how to run events in a way that meets the gm team's goals while staying in line with expected role play principals. There are resources out there (check youtube) on DMing that could be adapted to work with Planeshift's environment. At minimum, those on the gm team should seriously discuss this internally and come up with a plan. Likewise, such work should be recorded so that the next new gm will have some sort of training material to learn from.

[Rigwyn]

I want to clarify that my views of the current gm team are influenced in part by some of the things we have seen from some gms of the past. I do realize that its unfair to paint the current team with the same brush and for that, I apologize. The current team should be viewed as the current team, and each member should be seen as an individual with their own individual views and ways of doing things.

My posts have been somewhat reactionary and perhaps overly protective of the role playing community. My tone was also rather sharp and abrasive at some points.  I'll try next time to word things so that they are not as offensive.

Some have asked why I did not take this matter up with the gm team directly. I used public discourse via the forums because I did not believe that an isolated discussion with the gm team would be taken seriously. Going forward, should I see something that I feel really needs to be pointed out and that requires more than a casual mention on the forum, I'll take it up with them first and see what happens.

While what I said was perhaps sticking my nose in the gm team's business, that portion of their business overlaps with our experience as players. While I have contributed a quest and a story or two, I am still a player and still affected by such things.

For those who enjoy gm events, please do not let my comments sully your experience. Your own experience is the best indicator of how well the event was run. For those who are gms, please don't view my comments as the voice of prospects or settings or whatever as its just my voice as a player alone.

Lastly, it was not my intention to bash Zunna, but I do realize that what I said had that effect, so for that too, I apologize.

[gonger]

I want to clarify that my views of the current gm team are influenced in part by some of the things we have seen from some gms of the past. I do realize that its unfair to paint the current team with the same brush and for that, I apologize. The current team should be viewed as the current team, and each member should be seen as an individual with their own individual views and ways of doing things.

Exactly. And a good move from you.

My posts have been somewhat reactionary and perhaps overly protective of the role playing community. My tone was also rather sharp and abrasive at some points.  I'll try next time to word things so that they are not as offensive.

And then this... What makes you think anybody needs your protection? And from whom? From this terrible GM team? Who never do anything for players, but plenty against them? Come on, Rigwyn, you can do better than this!

Some have asked why I did not take this matter up with the gm team directly. I used public discourse via the forums because I did not believe that an isolated discussion with the gm team would be taken seriously. Going forward, should I see something that I feel really needs to be pointed out and that requires more than a casual mention on the forum, I'll take it up with them first and see what happens.

Why not speak about it during a Dev meeting, with players and GMs present? And then, if necessary, follow up in the forums?
When it comes to being "taken seriously", I am yet to meet Game Admins that listen more closely to their players. In my past life as a MUD player, I had some truly unpleasant experiences with the equivalent of Game Masters. This makes me appreciate our team even more.
Our GMs make mistakes, sure, because they are human (and maybe Damola's death was such a mistake). But they listen, and act accordingly.

Lastly, it was not my intention to bash Zunna, but I do realize that what I said had that effect, so for that too, I apologize.

A good move, again, and a good end of your post. Hopefully everybody will cool down now, things get so easily heated up during a discussion. In the end, we all have the same goal: To make PlaneShift as enjoyable as possible.

Gonger.

[iridia]

The GM team intends to organize events that are fun for all the players that attend the event. In the Klyros Down event there were some actions taken by the GM's that we thought were a good addition to the event and meant to emphasize the situation the players were in at that moment.

Unfortunately these actions were not perceived as fun. Damola was one of the players affected by these actions and the criticism she has on these actions, like any other feedback given to us, will be taken into account and we will learn from.

The GM Team

[Pierre]

This discussion got suddenly smothered. 

There were no personal insults.  It got heated. 

It's an important discussion to have, how we in PS roleplay events, as players and GMs. 

The fact that Rigwyn is apologizing and shutting up is very weird to me.  This makes me not want to join events, it's a bad environment when people like Rigwyn and Siteya cannot give their very experienced views on the events and how they are run and feel comfortable doing so.  These forums are so civilized for internet stuff, I don't think any of us should be so completely defensive that we cannot take the heat.

Seriously, this place is very very very civilized.

[bilbous]

I think the biggest issue we have here is whether GMs should try to balance player participation or should the fastest typists be allowed to dominate. Very often it has seemed to me that the usual suspects drive the action whichever way they want. Slow typists, which often includes people using a non-native tongue, are often relegated to the status of also-ran. The GMs have their scripts to follow and have to try to react to whatever the players try to throw at them. Other people just tag along to be in the entourage and gain whatever scraps are thrown their way.

Personally I stopped trying to participate some time ago because the elites could not find any way to share the glory. It belongs to them and everyone else has to be shouted down.

Perhaps I am too harsh, but I wouldn't be a GM here if you paid me (of course, nobody asked me to). It seems far more frustrating than rewarding. That they keep on trying to entertain us is eminently commendable.

This has been the view from a rock half-buried in the muck.

[gonger]

I think the biggest issue we have here is whether GMs should try to balance player participation or should the fastest typists be allowed to dominate. Very often it has seemed to me that the usual suspects drive the action whichever way they want. Slow typists, which often includes people using a non-native tongue, are often relegated to the status of also-ran. The GMs have their scripts to follow and have to try to react to whatever the players try to throw at them. Other people just tag along to be in the entourage and gain whatever scraps are thrown their way.

Personally I stopped trying to participate some time ago because the elites could not find any way to share the glory. It belongs to them and everyone else has to be shouted down.

Some of the earlier events were definitely like this, and being a very fast typist (even as a non-native speaker), I take some of this blame on me. But after some complaints and discussions, players seem to be more disciplined, and also more experienced. For my part, I use the time I gain through my fast typing to run the Event Group, and to think twice - or thrice! - about what I am going to type. Quality is more important then quantity, and slow typists have the same right to RP the events as anybody else.

Perhaps I am too harsh, but I wouldn't be a GM here if you paid me (of course, nobody asked me to). It seems far more frustrating than rewarding. That they keep on trying to entertain us is eminently commendable.

This has been the view from a rock half-buried in the muck.

Agreed (about the commendation, not about the muck ).

[Volki]

Just make Rigwyn the GM who supervises roleplay.

[Damola]

I didn´t look in the forum for the last days as I was serious about not wanting to discuss it.

Zunna made me aware today, as I talked to her about this situation with via whisper in an attempt to clear up things, that the GM team decided that Damola was there ICly.

That will have no effect on the way I play Damola. She wasn´t there. Thats her reality and I am naturally authoritative of it as I am the one playing her. She just wasn´t there, so she doesn´t have any memories cause she wasn´t there, not cause she forgot cause of some trauma.

As thats against the way GMs decided to handle this, I think it is best when Damola will not take part in future GM events for now. That way its possible to avoid unnecessary conflicts about this.

It just doesn´t work for me to play Damola in a way I as a player have not agreed to. For me RP is about being able to influence the story instead of playing Damola as a victim of it.

Eonwind I do not concur with your point of view. And I won´t accept any IC punishments for Damola just cause I decided that she has not been there. I did this to protect myself as a player and in order to continue to have fun playing PS. Having to play Damola in such a situation *against my will* for me personally would take all fun out of playing PS.

I just openly display my own limits and vulnerabilities. I do not mean any offence to anyone. This is just how I personally receive this and what I personally make out of this.

Damola has this in OOC description:

Player enjoys lighthearted, joyful and recreational roleplay and is selective in what roleplay to engage with. If Damola´s lighthearted and sometimes probably even untouchable behaviour does not fit your way to play roles, feel free to play with someone else. For me it is still a *game*.

If Damola´s actions hurt you OOCly, feel free to send me a tell. I am willing to consider an OOC or IC solution to it. I like this game to be joyful for everyone.

I now that GMs can´t read all OOC descriptions, but as I didn´t see this coming as a player, I also had no reason to talk to GMs beforehand.

I do have some IC mechanism for Damola to behave this way consistently ICly – she can tell a very touching story about this. But I didn´t found a way to apply this mechanism in the event at that time, so I decided to take her out of it. Upto now I have not seen any other suggestion that would work for me. And its past as well already.

I am sorry that I didn´t receive the warnings as that serious quickly enough as the GMs intended them to be seen. Again, I do not mean any offence to anyone. I am just trying to find a way how I can continue to have fun with PS.

This is my truth.

I think I will again avoid the forum for some time, as I want to avoid wasting energy into unhelpful ping pong of arguments.

[Damola]

One more clarification:

Damola died before. Not often, but she did. ICly. She even fell into death. But this was in a situation and story that didn´t completely destroy her consistency as a char for me and that didn´t make her unplayable for me. I was able to play her in a way that recovered her ICly without destroying her core traits as a character as being lighthearted, playful and serene, while still being cautious and protective of herself where this makes sense and where she actually knows her way as a char, she has been roofclimbing often in her childhood and didn´t fall into death there either.

Heck, I tried playing her with it, but it didn´t work out for me. At least one player accepted that I took Damola out of it at that time.

Actually realistically spoken, what would happen in a char is blown into a death during the event like this or killed by an NPC: How realistic would it be for the char to ever appear again in the event? I know lots of players just run through DR as quickly as possible and then continue with the event without playing *any* of the consequences of dieing. "Oh I just died, it doesn´t matter, lets go on." I know in game mechanics PS does not have a perma death, but does that take all the consequences of dieing away when RPing? I know chars die OOCly all day, and ICly as well and don´t take it for anything serious. But honestly *how* realistic is that, how realistic would it be for a char to fall into death and continue with an event actually as if nothing happened? How would that be different from my taking Damola out of the event? Realistic for me would be that if the char died, the char would be traumatized, would have to deal with the trauma and there would not be much of a chance for the char to ever appear during the runtime of the event again. More for some chars, like Damola, less for others, but really, even for the toughest guys, do you think its realistic to go through DR, then say "lalala, I just have blown into death and died or torn into pieces and died, but I don´t give it a damn" and continue as if *nothing* happened? How is that any different from taking a char out of an IC experience, different from deciding that char did not experience it, did not live *through* it? To fight against a giant dwarf for example, be killed and appear with the event just 10 minutes later again as if nothing happened? How much sense would that make ICly?

I tell you my personal answer to this: *none*.

So I do think that any "You are dead" decision of a GM basically takes a char out of the event completely for its entire runtime of it if played realistically and thus destroy the fun of the player taking part in the event who wants to see how the event goes on and experience it with the other players together. Its basically a "You are out, go away." if realistically played. Sure, I had Damola run through DR as well, I know my way, thanks, and appear in the event again, but basically that alone didn´t make any sense whatsoever if Damola would have experienced the consequences of a death realistically. If I played her realistically with what happened, Damola would not have appeared in the event again *at all*. How is ignoring the consequences of a "you are dead" decision of a GM during an event and appearing ten minutes later in the event again as if nothing happened any different from what I am asking for here?

If its the story, if its how I received the story versus the consistency and playability of my main char as I see it, Damola didn´t experience the story. In my oppinion thats no different than how many players play or more accurately do not play the death of their chars during events so far. So I even do not think I am doing anything special here. Actually I think its even more honest and respectful of the GM decision to let a char die. Instead of just ignoring it altogether I make it obvious that it didn´t work for me and am willing to take Damola out of the event completely.

That said, I do think that the story doesn´t need it that it has been exactly Damola falling into death for it to exist and make sense as a story. It could have been some other citizen of Yliakum who has not been played by a char and the story would still be consistent and make sense. Heck, this could even give a consistent continuation event that way, for example about rescuing that non player backed char from DR or helping that char to recover from the experience. On the other hand up to now I didn´t receive any suggestion on how to play Damola consistently with what happened and even not a single response about the two suggestions I had.

And also: I do think its unlikely that my decision about Damola will cause any serious inconsistency issues with future story lines. Unless you plan to create a future event around the fact that Damola was blown into death in this one, I think its quite easy to avoid any conflicts around the different ways I and GM team decided to handle this. If I am not forced to play Damola ICly with having experienced this death thats inconsistent for her, it does not matter for me at all whether GM team decided she has been there while I decided she has not been there. I can live with the difference in viewpoints. I just will play Damola in a way that she hasn´t been at the event at all. So far I didn´t read anything that convinced me to handle this differently.

So my current decision for this is: To stick with my decision, let it go and rest for now and deal with any issues of my decision only if any issues ever arise out of it, which again, I do think, is unlikely.

[Dilihin]

Why we are arguing from so irrelevant think?i mean is this really so important?afterall it was just one more dead,so it should not spoil ICness of char.afterall,pretty much everyone makes unusual thinks.