Re: Banned. Really PS?

[gonger]

Greetings,

Since the original thread is locked now, I must create a new one.
The subject was discussed in yesterday's Dev Meeting. Below please find the log.

Regards,

Gonger

(22:13:04) Gonger says: Greetings to all! In the forums there were some discussions about banned players. Someone argued that players can get into trouble when they are disconnected, because to the game system it still seems they are crafting / fighting / whatever all the time. At the same time, they cannot react to whispers, for example, just because they got disconnected.
(22:13:13) Gonger says: Is it true that something along these lines can happen? I do hate cheaters, and it is important to do something against them, but I fell very uncomfortable about the possibility that players got banned without real reason.
(22:13:43) Talad says: Iridia ?
(22:14:55) Iridia says: Most commands can not be executed on players that are in what we GM's call 'ghost' state
(22:15:34) Talad says: players stay in that state shortly
(22:15:55) Talad says: so I think it's unlikely to be confused with botting
(22:16:11) Talad says: also GMs are collecting multiple events before banning
(22:16:31) Talad says: the sequence we use is warn->kick->ban
(22:16:38) Talad says: so you have to do it 3 times
(22:16:42) Gonger says: Is the exact procedure for a ban somewhere on the website?
(22:16:51) Gonger says: Ah, I see.
(22:16:52) Iridia says: Yes
(22:16:55) Gova says: Was it a case of him being disconnected or just the game freezing on him for extended periods of time?
(22:17:05) Iridia says: under game rules and policies on the forum
(22:17:34) Gonger says: Gova, that was unclear. I asked that question, but the player has left the discussion. Talcon is the name.
(22:18:22) Gonger says: Would it make a difference when his game freezes, say, for 10 minutes?
(22:18:22) Talad says: also players can contact us on forums or chat if they think its a mistake
(22:18:35) Yukibo says: Does that mean that Talcon was under suspicion 3 times before he got his ban?
(22:18:49) Talad says: the server will disconnect you before
(22:18:51) Bodier says: actuallly more in this instance
(22:18:54) Eonwindd says: Talcon was contacted by the GM and already had a talk with them
(22:19:01) Talad says: can't stay 10 minutes
(22:19:05) Iridia says: Multiple times
(22:19:44) Yukibo nods in understanding
(22:19:57) Gonger says: Ok, thank you for these detailed answers. It is very important that nobody gets banned by mistake or accident.
(22:20:37) Eonwindd says: we agree, but it didn't seem to be the case
(22:20:46) Iridia says: We take these matters very serious
(22:21:51) Gonger says: Aye, these ARE serious matters.

[Volki]

AFK training =/= botting

There should be no rule against it.

[bilbous]

I remember a couple updates ago I used to get frozen for a considerable time [up to 1/2 hour, at times] when training 3 types of armor in a swarm of critters. This was due to server message overload. My client could not handle either the traffic or printing the many messages on screen, I am not sure which. I haven't seen that behavior since then but it might also have to do with my reducing graphics to their lowest levels. How long it lasted depended on how long it took to level up those skills. This was before auto-levelling was introduced so when all three skills had leveled no further practice was available.

I do not know if this is still possible, nor do I know if it is particularly relevant. I just thought I would mention it.

[Talcon]

I (as a veteran of Planeshift) will now tell you that I plan never to return to this game. I've almost played 10 years, and I come back from this BS ban with 30 lvls taken away from *every* stat. I dropped to realm 3 in a lot of magic ways I had realm 5 in. Do you know how long it took to get to realm 5 in one, none the less all those ways? Anyway I'm finished. Deleting it from my hard drive, not re-downloading, and never again will I recommend it. (And yes I have recommended it before to some players that still currently play) Goodbye Planeshift. 

[Volki]

I've almost played 10 years, and I come back from this BS ban with 30 lvls taken away from *every* stat. I dropped to realm 3 in a lot of magic ways I had realm 5 in.

...Jesus.

GMs, Talcon has been a loyal player for as long as I can remember. He's a nice guy even if he character is a bit weird. y u do dis

[Wocib]

Goodbye Planeshift.

* Wocib waves to Talcon as he walks away...

[gonger]

I (as a veteran of Planeshift) will now tell you that I plan never to return to this game. I've almost played 10 years, and I come back from this BS ban with 30 lvls taken away from *every* stat. I dropped to realm 3 in a lot of magic ways I had realm 5 in. Do you know how long it took to get to realm 5 in one, none the less all those ways? Anyway I'm finished. Deleting it from my hard drive, not re-downloading, and never again will I recommend it. (And yes I have recommended it before to some players that still currently play) Goodbye Planeshift.

The GMs claim that you received several warnings, and that they talked to you. What do you say about this? Maybe check your log files about messages, etc. Then let us know again how you see things.

[Rigwyn]

[gonger]

I (as a veteran of Planeshift) will now tell you that I plan never to return to this game. I've almost played 10 years, and I come back from this BS ban with 30 lvls taken away from *every* stat. I dropped to realm 3 in a lot of magic ways I had realm 5 in. Do you know how long it took to get to realm 5 in one, none the less all those ways? Anyway I'm finished. Deleting it from my hard drive, not re-downloading, and never again will I recommend it. (And yes I have recommended it before to some players that still currently play) Goodbye Planeshift.

The GMs claim that you received several warnings, and that they talked to you. What do you say about this? Maybe check your log files about messages, etc. Then let us know again how you see things.

Sadly enough, it seems we will not receive any further information. A missed chance to clear things up on a very serious topic, and to discuss them openly.

[MishkaL1138]

Still with this? I think this counts as necro. Can we request a thread closed?

[gonger]

Still with this? I think this counts as necro. Can we request a thread closed?

As several people said, it is a very serious topic, and not for the first time. Therefore it is sad that it should end in silence, and not in a statement...
Maybe we can wait for two or three days more before closing the thread?
Truth to tell, I do not believe there will be something new in that time, but at least there was still the chance to say something.

[Pierre]

I'm with you, gonger.  It's important.

Especially for anyone who has ever done any afk training, or does afk crafting (speaking from one who is guilty of the former but not of the latter, and no longer of either).  Any of the high level warrior/crafters has done this, I will guess.  It's not the same as botting, but if this is what Talcon did (and I'm guessing it is), then I'm curious if the penalty is supposed to be the same.

I hope that if our GM team does go after afk-crafters and afk-warriors, they could do it kindly, e.g. not an impersonal "warning #1" etc.  There are some feisty people amoung us who would bristle at getting a warning for going to the bathroom while training and coming back to a kick or a warning, but who could be spoken to respectfully (e.g. Heya, no one wants their levels dropped and the rules are that you've got to respond within 5 minutes or we must consider it botting/afking.  This is your first warning, and I'm happy to talk with you about it when you return)...I remember a couple of old GMs who were masters of this level of communication.

I do miss Talcon in the arena pit, he would dance around and make me laugh while I was gossiping I mean training.

[iridia]

I think it's inappropriate to discuss the specifics about Talcon on the forum. However I will explain how the procedure leading up to the ban went.

AFK training and botting are considered the same offense.

When we suspect that a player is botting/AFK training we test in several ways to see if our suspicions are correct, think about sending tells, reloading npc's, sliding, teleporting, pretty much anything that provokes a response.

We will then first send you a tell explaining which rule(s) you are breaking. We give you a comfortable 10 minutes to respond, so a bathroom break should not be an issue.
If you choose to ignore these tells or break the rule again, you will receive your first official warning.
Break the rule again? You receive another warning.

After 2 warnings we deem it necessary to take more evasive measures; in this case -30 trained skill and a 3 day ban.

In the case of Talcon I did make a mistake there, I reduced all his skills instead of the skill I was supposed to reduce.

When you get banned you can join us on IRC on #planeshift-gmtalk to discuss this.

When you are training keep an eye on your client and be sure to respond to tells send by a GM. That way we know you are actively playing the game and not unimportant are respectful towards the GM's.

More info on the game rules and policies here.

[gonger]

I think it's inappropriate to discuss the specifics about Talcon on the forum. However I will explain how the procedure leading up to the ban went.

AFK training and botting are considered the same offense.

When we suspect that a player is botting/AFK training we test in several ways to see if our suspicions are correct, think about sending tells, reloading npc's, sliding, teleporting, pretty much anything that provokes a response.

We will then first send you a tell explaining which rule(s) you are breaking. We give you a comfortable 10 minutes to respond, so a bathroom break should not be an issue.
If you choose to ignore these tells or break the rule again, you will receive your first official warning.
Break the rule again? You receive another warning.

After 2 warnings we deem it necessary to take more evasive measures; in this case -30 trained skill and a 3 day ban.

In the case of Talcon I did make a mistake there, I reduced all his skills instead of the skill I was supposed to reduce.

When you get banned you can join us on IRC on #planeshift-gmtalk to discuss this.

When you are training keep an eye on your client and be sure to respond to tells send by a GM. That way we know you are actively playing the game and not unimportant are respectful towards the GM's.

More info on the game rules and policies here.

Thank you, Iridia, for these detailed explanations. About the bathroom break, which is not an issue:
In all my skill trainings, I never came across anything that comes even close to a two minute duration. So if during 10 minutes of inactivity a character is still training, it seems likely that some kind of trigger has been used - cheating. But please do tell me if there are training activities that can take up to 10 minutes, and can cause you trouble with GMs.
I believe that nobody minds if someone manually triggers some long training procedure, and then switches to a different window, comes back to the PlaneShift window when training is finished, triggers again manually, switches, etc.
Several friends of Talcon have spoken in this thread. Maybe one of them can make him give a final statement?
And, Iridia, I trust that all the other skills have been restored? It is good that you confess to making a mistake there. GMs are only human, after all! 

Greetings, Gonger.

[Siteya]

I will be sure to never close my chat box ever again when I am grinding...I used to do this often. <---this is a joke