Settings: On Gods and Magic

[iridia]

Aren't Diaboli the only ones known to do magic without the need for glyphs?

[Roled]

Iridia see it's a contested issue! I know of at least 5 instances in game where glyphless magic is observable and common... and there may be more.         
RR

[Kaerli_Stronwylle]

Aren't Diaboli the only ones known to do magic without the need for glyphs?

Kaerli's seen it before, from people with no discernible Diaboli blood in their veins...

[MishkaL1138]

Aren't Diaboli the only ones known to do magic without the need for glyphs?

Kaerli's seen it before, from people with no discernible Diaboli blood in their veins...

Like from Kaerli herself.

[Siteya]

The thread has gone in an interesting path...

First I would have to ask, is there any guide or rules, from PS, that say how it is we are actually to RP with magic besides the books on Dark Way in the DR and the books on magic in Jayose's library?  I see it as possibly going two different ways and that either would be acceptable, if your character is trained or knowledgeable in the magic and has the glyphs.

a) The character actually rps, holding the glyph whilst casting the spell or makes mention of the glyph being used.

b) Casts a spell know to be associated with a glyph/magic way(s) and it not being necessary to hold the glyph.

Personally, I think that sticking accurately with the limits of the the glyphs and spells of the game mechanics, can get pretty boring in rp's, and also most of the glyphs are there for offensive & defensive fighting, which is limited to rp's that are violent in nature. I think it is brilliant, when creative role players look at what each way can do, as far as their elements and the spells that exist and push the limits to enhance rp's and storylines... of course within reason. We have very few guides to tell us how to effectively use magic in role play and so have developed our own styles and techniques. The best example of a magic system/guidelines that has worked closely with game mechanics and role play, are the books in DR that explain how the dark way glyphs can be used to reek all sorts of havoc on the realm and most likely the adept yielding the glyphs (unsure of the correct titles, Rigwyn?), but the descriptions for uses are left open for some interpretation. These books spawned a whole slew of rp and with the guidelines in place, people felt more comfortable exploring the concepts in the books.

I would hope to see this explored in the other magic ways in books, partially why I started the Healer's Council, and also an exploration of deity alignment and possibly considering class and species... How do these things effect our role play abilities and knowledge as devoted adepts of magic?

[Rigwyn]

There was very little information on what was considered acceptable interpretation of how one should role play magic previously. The most recent dark way books illustrate how one might interpret this. They show that there is more to magic that just point, click, black cloud, hit point reduction.

For each magic way in question, there's bits and pieces of information scattered around that you can read and work with. For example, the player guide on planeshift.it has some information about the ways, quests reveal more information. The spell descriptions that you see when you learn a new spell are another source, and so too is that output that you see on the screen with you cast. If you put all of this information together, you get a feeling for what magic for a given way is supposed to be like.

This takes a lot of work to do. I've spent lots of time thinking about these things and discussing them with other well grounded players before attempting some of my magic based role plays. To be honest, I felt like I was going out on a limb by doing ritual magic and delving into the supernatural and feared that I would get hit with a ton of criticism for it, but for me the role play needed this kind of creativity and flavor added to it - right or wrong.

I agree with what you are doing with regard to the healing rp. It's a terrific way to explore and experiment with this and to stretch one another's creative muscles. I remember reading an RP log by someone else once in which the players tried to cure someone via trepannation or a crude transfusion that was just medically unsound, but I found the read rather entertaining.

I think there is lots and LOTS of room for more story telling and magic rp using the rest of the ways if you just get past the bit about not wanting to be criticised and try to do things that you think would fit into the way in question. It takes a lot of work, but I think its worth it.

As for the ways and glyphless magic, I see the ways and glyphs as filters and glyphless magic as something terribly dangerous and almost impossibly hard to control. Yes, the diaboli practiced raw magic in their home world, but I believe that knowledge was lost when they entered Yliakum, so saying "I'm diaboli, I don't need glyphs" does not really fly for me.

For those who wish to entertain glyphless magic, I would strongly suggest that you give compelling reasons for why your character can do this and you should strive to stay consistent with the messages that the game reveals about the dangers and unpredictability of raw magic. If you ignore this and make an over powered character who can just do this like its nothing, then people are going to see this as something that breaks immersion. You'll likely get ignored. In general, things that are exceptional and extraordinary require exceptional and extraordinary proof or justification in order to be believable.

[Volki]

she doesn't interfere with the worshippers of the other gods for 2 reasons:
1. they out number her
2. she gets to take them in the end.

Dakkru is amassing an immortal army of spirits to overthrow the other gods and take the living realm for her own. </spoiler>

Aren't Diaboli the only ones known to do magic without the need for glyphs?

Never heard of this, but I haven't been questing in ages.

Kaerli's seen it before, from people with no discernible Diaboli blood in their veins...

If this is to be done, it ought to be weak compared to glyph magic--unless you're some sort of demon. There should be a good explanation behind this ability. If it's a regular character such as a main, he/she/it should have balancing weaknesses.

[Can-ned Food]

Just one small comment here.

I saw it was discussed — or maybe it was in the previous topic — that although Talad made the glyphs and the ways, other deities corresponded each to a way predominantly per their characteristics or personalities.  Something like that.

Anyway, the magic was about since forever and preceded the gods, right?  All that Talad did was catalog it and come up with safe ways for mere mortals to use it.  So, really, the deities already each had their own preferred flavors of The Stuff, and they each simply see one of the Ways as being their favorites.  Maybe their essences are somehow tied up in different compositions of this magic, whatever it is.
Rather like music:  most people like it as a concept, and they find genres or modes or methods which appeal to them.

Here's a question:  are we certain that the Ways always existed as they do?  Perhaps there is a more primordial form, which aligns and facets in strange ways.
I mean, maybe even the gods don't know the answer to that one.

I also see it reasonable that the glyphening system needn't align exactly with those inherent natures of the gods.  Here, I suppose the gods' magic are metabolisms of a living body, and the glyphs are internal combustion engines or something:  they both convert chemical potential energy into movement and heat, but in very different ways, and one rather cruder and sturdier, one more elegant and fragile.  That last bit stretches the metaphor thin.
Make sense to anyone else?  Its kinda confusing to me, but that's the best I could comprehend.

I must like to see my own text.

[Rigwyn]

I think the most descriptive texts we currently have on this is "The History of Magic"  (HOM herein) and the race history and settings pages found on http://planeshift.it   To my knowledge, the settings are not complete so there will always be holes and gaps that cannot really be explained with any reasonable certainty.

Anyway, the magic was about since forever and preceded the gods, right?

According the the race history, the Diaboli practiced raw magic in the their home world - which I believe precedes the arrival of the gods in Yliakum. You can't really tell because there are no dates in the text but I think that's a reasonable assumption.

According to HOM, people made a complete mess of things in using raw magic. Part of Talad's corrective measure was to stop them from practicing raw magic and to teach them instead to use glyphs which were designed to be used with distinct ways.

Part of the game's history also states that Hydlaa ( if I remember correctly ) was created by Talad using the 'Hydlaa Glyph', so glyphs in my opinion, should not be seen as training wheels for fools but rather as tools.

Based the on way quests, I don't think average mages would know about raw magic unless they either learned about it from the arch mages ( and I believe this is considered to be super secret information! ) or if they stumbled upon the HOM. ( which if I recall correctly, is kept in a fairly easy place to reach. So much for secrets. )

Here's a question:  are we certain that the Ways always existed as they do?  Perhaps there is a more primordial form, which aligns and facets in strange ways.
I mean, maybe even the gods don't know the answer to that one.

I don't know. I would say read the materials mentioned above and see if you can deduce this. Again, this is what I mean about digging too deep. Eventually, you get to a depth that is simply not covered by settings. In the real world you can use science to explore and test things and deepen your understanding. In the game, there is no such underlying forces or logic.

Hope that helps.

[Kaerli_Stronwylle]

Aren't Diaboli the only ones known to do magic without the need for glyphs?

Kaerli's seen it before, from people with no discernible Diaboli blood in their veins...

Like from Kaerli herself.

Eh? I was referring to Xifer Fyresoul -- Kaerli's 1st gen Ynnwn.

[Kaerli_Stronwylle]

Speaking to Siteya's point -- we do have a serious shortage of utility spells in Yliakum!  While some of them (D&D's (in)famous Grease, for instance) can be partially emulated using other spells (Icy Ground, in the case mentioned) -- others don't have any mapping in the mechanics whatsoever (Mending, for instance).

To a more general point, though -- how far should the effects of spells go in obeying physics? Should a magical lightning bolt behave like a real-world arc, complete with the ability to create arc flashes upon contact with the target, its current required to find some path back to the caster?  Or should it be treated as a wholly magical creation, capable of being stopped cold in its tracks and with effects that are totally defined by the spell?

And yes, we are getting to one of the main problems with the settings in PS -- we find ourselves falling off the deep end of the written lore, and wanting to do science to Yliakum to figure out more, but unable to because we don't know what could be plausible for a result!

[Rigwyn]

That and you need to consider how deep fellow players will want to dig. With someone who is interested in exploring all sorts of strange consequences and having debates over what is or isn't possible/probably, that's great. Some players though, will be "put off" by that line of thinking.

[Eonwind]

To a more general point, though -- how far should the effects of spells go in obeying physics? Should a magical lightning bolt behave like a real-world arc, complete with the ability to create arc flashes upon contact with the target, its current required to find some path back to the caster?  Or should it be treated as a wholly magical creation, capable of being stopped cold in its tracks and with effects that are totally defined by the spell?

Magic is something mysterious and something even the greatest of mage will hardly be able to fully understand... that's what makes magic magical to me
My point of view is making magic too much tied to "science" can make it become just another piece of technology and usually that's what one may want to avoid in a fantasy setting because its mood would be more like a science fiction mood.

What I find is really charming about the magical way of thinking is if magic "just work" (like you can assume it does in PS settings) you can develop different magical philosophies and they can all be valid explanations assuming these theories are not in contrast with real magical facts (e.g. you can have many different explanations why glyph A and glyph B can create the spell X, but if magic with no glyph is something unseen then it can be assumed theories around this magical topic are just speculations; likewise if a spell is able to freeze the ground it's safe to assume it can also freeze the water surface in order to create more RP uses etc.).

[Kaerli_Stronwylle]

To a more general point, though -- how far should the effects of spells go in obeying physics? Should a magical lightning bolt behave like a real-world arc, complete with the ability to create arc flashes upon contact with the target, its current required to find some path back to the caster?  Or should it be treated as a wholly magical creation, capable of being stopped cold in its tracks and with effects that are totally defined by the spell?

Magic is something mysterious and something even the greatest of mage will hardly be able to fully understand... that's what makes magic magical to me
My point of view is making magic too much tied to "science" can make it become just another piece of technology and usually that's what one may want to avoid in a fantasy setting because its mood would be more like a science fiction mood.

What I find is really charming about the magical way of thinking is if magic "just work" (like you can assume it does in PS settings) you can develop different magical philosophies and they can all be valid explanations assuming these theories are not in contrast with real magical facts (e.g. you can have many different explanations why glyph A and glyph B can create the spell X, but if magic with no glyph is something unseen then it can be assumed theories around this magical topic are just speculations; likewise if a spell is able to freeze the ground it's safe to assume it can also freeze the water surface in order to create more RP uses etc.).

There are several issues at play here, which I'll go over in turn:

[ol]

• The scientific method and its probative powers are not nearly as new as your view of the PS setting implies -- there has been some evidence that a minor branch of Greek philosophy foreshadowed it, and it was quite clearly developed in near-modern form around the turn of the first millenium AD.
  
• Even if the effects don't behave as real-world physics predicts, they still can be described in terms of a rational set of world-rules -- but they should be enumerated all the same, otherwise you'll get a source of OOC conflict when people make different inferences from the same underspecification.
  
  • Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence -- just because an effect isn't observed under X conditions doesn't mean it can't exist.
    
    • Generalization is OK when it comes to spells -- but where does it stop?
      [/ol]
      
      Or, to sum it up: It is OK if cast lightning in PS works differently than RL lightning bolts do, or more generally, if Yliakum doesn't obey RL scientific laws -- however, if you want people to reason, and not just speculate, about how the world does behave, you need to describe that behavior in a scientific, data-driven manner, as if Yliakum were an alternate reality.

[cdmoreland]

Magic is magic and not scientific. Potions are scientific.

If my memory is correct, Nolthrirs have a natural form of limited magic.