Settings: On Gods and Magic

[Rigwyn]

On Gods and Magic.

There was a discussion in another thread about the relationship between gods and magic. We know from the game settings that Talad created the glyphs for each way and taught some of the elder mages how to use them.  (See: History of Magic) This would make Talad somewhat neutral with regard to the morality of using the various ways such as crystal and dark. It means that one who practices dark way is not necessarily opposed to Talad or any other deity.

It does appear that some ways might fit in a little better with some religions. For example, There's a link between Dakkru, the death realm, dark way and the dark crystal. Likewise, some have pointed out that brown way seems to be rather harmonious with Xiosia, nature and life. I would argue here that crystal, blue and air too would be quite harmonious.

In some of her story posts, Siteya had her character debate over the relationship between living beings, Xiosia and Dakkru as mortals belong to the world of the living at present, but will all one day end up in Dakkru's embrace. I believe somewhere it is said that the gods are jealous and do not take kindly to those who worship more than one god - or who flip flop from one to the other, but what happens when one dies? Are they just transferred from their deity to Dakkru as if they no longer matter? Did they ever really matter?

If you have any questions about this or would like to further the discussion, then please do so here.

[Donari Tyndale]

Is there a reason not to host a debate on this topic in game instead of putting it OOCly on the forum?

[Rigwyn]

Because an IC discussion would be too limited.

[Cairn]

That is a truly excellent question, because if the Deities do not matter post-death, then for most people the endgame of Dakkru's embrace would matter most, ergo there would be MUCH more Dakkru worshippers, I would think.


Of course, would this knowledge be available IG? Obviously as of this point in time, no...

[steuben]

my take on it is this:

dakkru don't care much. just so long as you pay her toll on the way out.

she doesn't interfere with the worshippers of the other gods for 2 reasons:
1. they out number her
2. she gets to take them in the end.

as for number 2. that is what it looks like from the side of the still living. it maybe that she doesn't keep them she just collects them for whatever purpose it is.

this maybe one of those occasions where the deep and arcane lore that is being shepherded so tightly may have to be released.

[Siteya]

Thanks Rigwyn for starting this thread.

Why does worship in this realm have to be monotheistic? Look at Hinduism, they have so many Gods that they can't keep track of which one does what. As well as the ancient lore of Talad and Laanx, it seemed, had not there been a debacle of facial proportions, they were to rule as a team. I do like to ponder the combo of Dakkru & Xiosia (thanks Xillix) and who is to say or stop a cult (unless the deities themselves do so) from connecting the two and worshiping them as a duality? Look at all the very different Christian flavors out there, and how the same scripture can be interpreted to mean entirely two different things. Or how the northern & southern Indians argue about the lore of their pantheon of deities and yet they all still worship with fervor.

I am not sure where I read it, on the main ps history page maybe? That the Gods do exist in this realm, in fleshy proportions, making it harder to be an atheist when the Gods are ever present (well besides the absence of Talad & Laanx) and the Death Realm is a place that exists, that we all visit. How would a person truly not be spiritually or religious influenced by that, or Xiosia's tree, visits and gifts? One would have to be like holding such a grudge, be instigating chaos or just stubborn blindness to have no belief, the great mysteries of Yliakum or not as blind faith driven as they are in the real world.

That was my bit. lol o/

[Rigwyn]

I would not try to make too many parallels between real world religion and Planeshift religion. Planeshift has real, tangible, interactive gods while the real world does not. In the real world you can just make up shit up and get away with it as long as society does not decide to burn you at the stake. In PS there are real gods who might get a bug up their ass and smite you.

The question is, have the gods decided that they are against polytheism, or are some OK with it? To be honest, I can't cite any settings info on this off the top of my head. My understanding from discussion on the forums from days past is that the gods are very possessive and do not take kindly to those who swap sides or who "two-time" them.

Honestly, I don't know if this was stated in the past to keep people from creating all-inclusive Mary Sues who are "open minded and worship all gods" or if it actually came from something within the settings.

Personally, I like the idea of gods requiring or demanding loyalty, but such demands really do beg for some supporting reasons. What benefit do gods get our of hoarding wimpy, sickly, needy mortals? Are they like pet ants or something?

Talad: Look Laanx, I have .... I have ants!
Xiosia: Oh goodie! I'll melt the chocolate!
Dakkru: Better kill them first.
Laanx: Oh, fuck you all. I'm going back to my shman cave to sulk.

[Siteya]

I just spit out my drink Rigwyn

Okay before we get to derailed on can we worship multiple Gods in Yialkum....
 
Back to deities and magics
If you look at most fantasy games and fiction, you see the holy people, mages and wizards the ones to be the spell casters, these usually align with deity or alchemy etc, and your classes gives you advantages, but in PS spell casting is so common, one does not need to devote to a deity, or even a certain way and there are many chars rp'ing hardcore spell knowledge, sometimes in multiple elemental ways.

Since the power of the glyphs are not connected to the Gods, besides that they are created by Talad. Would the Gods bestow their devoted/dedicated followers with any gifts? I have always played that through her vows to the Goddess, and to non violence, Siteya believes she has protection and some gifts come natural to her when it comes to healing others and with nature. But nothing over the top. Not trying to make her Hydlaa's new demon huntress or anything...or maybe I am hhhmmm?

[Rigwyn]

lol

Yes, we have cases in the game lore where gods helped out their followers. I think that's reasonable. We also have the xiosamas event which counts too.

[Donari Tyndale]

My take on it is that gods are just beings, albeit on a far higher power scale. They quarrel, have feelings and try to outwit and possibly destroy each other. As I understood "The History of Magic", the Ways are relics of the creation of the glyphs. Some glyphs go well with each other, some don't. So to make magic more controlled and safer for everyone involved, glyphs and ways go hand in hand.

I also think gods have flaws, and probably, some day, Talad will come to think "Hey crap, I totally should have made glyphs so that only my followers can use them.". But gods, being attention whores, would also like the attention "Wow, you're the dude who made the glyphs, fancy.".

As for gods and magic there seems to be a clear link between the two. If you are a true follower of a god, that god would help you understand his areas of knowledge better and hence improve your ability to use magic in that respect. If you follow Dakkru you understand the nature of death and hence would be able to cast better Dark Way spells.

As to the Death Realm, I would surmise there are things that even predate the gods. Since all races, irrespective of being created in Yliakum or not,  are going to the Death Realm, this might be a place that has nothing to do with the creation of life in Yliakum. And perhaps Dakkru one day decided it would be a nice place to hang out, he seized power and claimed the DR his own and since that day, he's in charge. Since there are things even the gods can't change, perhaps the DR is one of those and Dakkru just has to accept that whatever dies heads his way. Now, that makes Dakkru a hell of a deity since he gets to decide who exists and who not, and as seen with the BF followers, uses that privilege too. Perhaps the gods have a truce among themselves and Dakkru just can't afford killing believers of the true gods or else draw their ire?

[bilbous]

Various thoughts:

Talad did not invent Glyphs although he apparently made available all the ones we can use. If you recall when Laanx and Talad and Vodul first arrived in the realm they found the glyph representing Yliakum which they used to hollow out the levels. Am I misremembering and/or has this changed? I suppose either is quite possible.

Is there any real evidence that true death that doesn't come from passing through the DR too many times gives Dakkru anything? If you are sent to the crystal or you ingest a poison that causes the true death do you still go disembodied to the DR?

[Eonwind]

Would the Gods bestow their devoted/dedicated followers with any gifts? I have always played that through her vows to the Goddess, and to non violence, Siteya believes she has protection and some gifts come natural to her when it comes to healing others and with nature.

Yes if a god thinks he has good reason to do so can bestow the faithful follower with gifts, these gift, even if they can be magical in nature are not necessarily tied to any way or to speak in other words there maybe not an univocal relationship between god <--> way. For example in the past a God gifted devoted followers with blessed items (unrelated to a specific way).
However some ties can be stronger than others so it's easy to assume Dakkru (having a connection with the dark crystal) can be more willing to bestow magical gifts DW oriented as opposed to CW magical gifts.

The question is, have the gods decided that they are against polytheism, or are some OK with it?

Yes, it's true gods are jealous but they're by no means against polytheism, in fact they acknowledge the existence of other gods and they do not deny their existence as a monotheist religion would. Polytheism and jealous gods are not necessarily opposed concepts.

[Rigwyn]

The question is, have the gods decided that they are against polytheism, or are some OK with it?

Yes, it's true gods are jealous but they're by no means against polytheism, in fact they acknowledge the existence of other gods and they do not deny their existence as a monotheist religion would. Polytheism and jealous gods are not necessarily opposed concepts.
[/quote]

Perhaps polytheism was not the right word. What I meant is the act of worshipping multiple gods in polygamous or adulterous sort of way.

[Roled]

Roled has been contemplating versions of these questions for a while now, and has written drafts of three volumes addressing some of these issues, specifically

1) as Bilbous said, bypassing Dakkru entirely when one's existence is ended, via the one way trip to the Crystal
2) whether the gods are omnipotent and/and omniscient or not, or where on those spectra the pantheon of the interior world of the Dome might hover,
      2a) oocly the parallels between the dome's pantheon and ancient Greek and Pharaohic godheads
      2b) what glyphs have to do with facilitating the interface between gods and magic
3) Off world intruders who have entered the Dome through portals bringing off world knowledge and powers

On RR's behalf, I've almost finished these three volumes of theological and philosophic conjecture and phenomenological reflection and some limited IC experimentation. As soon as I do, RR would like to present his theories in a lecture with a discussion following, if anyone is interested.

Very interesting! Thanks Rig
RR

[Noronel Poroner]

Roled has been contemplating versions of these questions for a while now, and has written drafts of three volumes addressing some of these issues[...]
      2b) what glyphs have to do with facilitating the interface between gods and magic [snip]

Faicke has (just recently - IG) struggled to figure out how some natural (innate, inherent) Red Way-like magic versus glyphs fit into lore, and can be coerced into demonstrating his glyphless magic for those willing to work with him a bit. Maybe he should call a lawyer  ?