Author Topic: Je ne suis pas Charlie  (Read 1136 times)

novacadian

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Je ne suis pas Charlie
« on: January 19, 2015, 01:24:34 pm »
Seeing that the original Je suis Charlie thread is close, thought I would post this example of the hypocrisy of freedom of expression in France (and likely the rest of the west)....

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/french-law-treats-dieudonne-charlie-hebdo-differently

P.S. It just dawned on my how ironic it is that the original thread was closed when sparking other points of view. That may have been example enough.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 01:32:28 pm by novacadian »

Donari Tyndale

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2015, 02:46:51 pm »
That was my point in the original thread. Freedom of speech means the freedom that the mass likes what's going on. As soon as you speak against that, you commit a crime.

LigH

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2015, 03:36:53 pm »
Something similar in German. They are not Charlie either because they don't want to abuse sympathy, and they have never been in a similar life threatening situation. Engrossing/pocketing is not suitable.

And politicians of governments who don't respect the freedom of opinion and speech are the least worthy to join or even lead such sympathy and condolence gatherings.

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gonger

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2015, 04:43:26 pm »
P.S. It just dawned on my how ironic it is that the original thread was closed when sparking other points of view. That may have been example enough.

I asked for the original thread to be closed because it was drifiting in many different directions, away from its original purpose of expressing our feelings about the cruel crime. When conspiracy theories and calls for nuclear war popped up, I simply had enough of it.
Of course there are many more crimes happening every day. In Afghanistan, for example, bombings with many deaths are - terrible as it may sound - part of daily life by now. But does this make the Charlie Hebdo murders any less terrible?
I would also like to point out that in the original thread neither you nor Donari answered to criticism on your points of view, and on your ways of expressing your points of view.
So what are you complaining about now?

Idoru

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2015, 04:46:07 pm »
You have it or you don't. A couple of days ago David Cameron (UK PM) said it is acceptable to cause offence against religious groups; yet, we have laws in the UK that make causing offence a criminal.... offence. You cannot have it both ways. Freedom of speech is black or white. You can't favour one group or section of society with preferential protection.

Long time no see ;o)

"May there only be peaceful and cheerful Earth Days to come for our beautiful Spaceship Earth as it continues to spin and circle in frigid space with its warm and fragile cargo of animate life."

LigH

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2015, 05:13:03 pm »
Welcome back Idoru! :)

And yes, Germany also has a current discussion about whether strengthening or removing a "blasphemy act". A balance between freedom of religion and freedom of opinion is not trivial.

Funny thing: The word "freedom" has so little meaning unless you explain its context. One of the quirks of "liberal" politics.

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Calmus

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2015, 05:34:55 pm »
here is a cartoon about how our press understands freedom of speech:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Screen-Shot-2015-01-18-at-9.46.05-PM.png

The cartoonist worked for Charlie Hebdo and was fired for this cartoon in 2009. Obviously not every religion is treated the same in our press.

bilbous

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2015, 05:44:08 pm »
Well after all Christianity is a heresy of the Jewish faith and Islam is a heresy of the Christian faith.
You can't blame the Founders because the Vorta got the message wrong and the Jem'Hadar couldn't understand what the Vorta were trying to say.

It is sad that so much of the world is based on a flawed game of telephone tag.

hulla

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2015, 07:42:45 pm »
hello
as a french i can explain a little about this for helping you to understand
one day some year ago everybody have see dieudoné on the french tv making a antisemit sketch after this he have been  banned of the tv
not only on tv but never again you have see is name on a movie or a good paper in a newspaper about his show some other can have make their "mea culpa" and stop for coming back to an ordinary show whit ordinary joke not him he have go more and more in the "bad" way he is not the only to do this but the real problem is now many year after whitout the mass media  whitout the tv he turn to make is show all around the country in the more big theatre the zenith (6000 /7000 people inside and all full )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Z%C3%A9nith
and some other big theatre all around the country and he make a lot of money whit and this is the part who are the more hard for the french government
not what he think but how many people ear him

 

Mouli

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2015, 02:55:43 am »
Liberty of expression doesn't cover Racism... please stop amalgam


Too many chiefs, not enough Indians...

LigH

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2015, 03:31:46 am »
Great sample, Calmus. But also leading further: Generalization is dangerous and often wrong. Governments suppressing people deserve criticism; but hating a whole nation (e.g. anti-semitism means hating all Jews in general) is a different issue. Not everyone is able to tell these details apart.

KnowYourMeme: Death To All Juice

Especially in Germany, this is a very delicate topic. Yes, in World War II, Nazis killed millions of Jews. But today, 3/4 century later, most of us are not Nazis anymore, so I believe even (and especially) Germans are allowed to be discerning regarding the decisions of the Israeli government. Our ancestors have been the "bad example" the current generation should avoid to repeat.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 03:41:21 am by LigH »

Gag Harmond
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novacadian

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2015, 08:41:32 am »
P.S. It just dawned on my how ironic it is that the original thread was closed when sparking other points of view. That may have been example enough.


So what are you complaining about now?


No complaints really. Just an attempt to expose the hypocrisy involved.

It is my belief that the west is directly responsible for much of the militant Muslim terrorism. More so than the doctrines that said terrorists misuse in their cause/crimes. If, for example, a publication/comedian were to mock Israel with Nazi overtones of their treatment of those in Palistine it would most likely be regarded as anti-Semitic and condemned in the west. Yet turning that same style of mockery against Islam is condoned. It is doubly ironic as Semitic refers to  a subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic language groups that includes Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, and Aramaic.

So the example is not truly Anti-Semitic, but anti-Jewish/anti-Israel. That is what would be really condemned when we begin to dig into the issue. That is when it becomes political. That is when the hypocrisy becomes more evident to be politically motivated and used as a tool of propaganda to support such things as the plight of Palistine and the bombing of innocents in such places as Syria, Afganistan, Pakistan, etc.. Not by suicide bombers but by drone and other air attacks by the west.

If exposing such hypocrisy seems like complaining to you then please ignore the hundreds of thousands of innocents that have died in the name of the War On Terror. Put your blinders back in place and feel confident that every issue that the western media presents to you is done in a fair and unbiased nature. Move along folks, nothing to see here.

P.S. The reason this answer was not placed in the original thread is that by the time of my return (not a regular here any more) the thread had been closed/censured due to your request. Strange correlation by my way of thinking, that you should now be the one to accuse me of not answering the concerns.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 08:45:41 am by novacadian »

LigH

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2015, 09:21:02 am »
War On Terror

War is terror (fear of violence), or even worse (certainty of violence). "Fighting fire with fire" is not trivial and highly risky.

The most annoying reply from a government I recently heard was a Federal Press Conference where a spokesman replied on a question by Tilo Jung (Jung und Naiv), if our government sees any relation between raising terror threat levels and drone killings, that the German government is not really interested in debating the reasons for terror. Of course not. Why would a conservative government be interested in eliminating terror, when terror is the best excuse to limit public rights for a promise of enhanced security?

"1984" was not intended to be a manual...

Gag Harmond
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gonger

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2015, 03:19:23 pm »
No complaints really. Just an attempt to expose the hypocrisy involved.

[long monologue deleted]

P.S. The reason this answer was not placed in the original thread is that by the time of my return (not a regular here any more) the thread had been closed/censured due to your request. Strange correlation by my way of thinking, that you should now be the one to accuse me of not answering the concerns.

I have explained in detail why I asked for the original thread to be closed. To speak of censorship is simply absurd, after all you could open a thread of your own.
But even now you are still not giving answers to criticism on your points of view, and on your ways of expressing your points of view.
I conceded that many other terrible things are happening all over the world, and you are right that many of them are much less covered in Western media than the Charlie Hebdo murders. But when I ask whether these other terrible things make the Charlie Hebdo murders any less terrible, you do not answer - again.

Volki

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Re: Je ne suis pas Charlie
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2015, 07:25:52 am »
.

You were saying some pretty despicable things in the other thread. You have every right to say them, but seriously? Freedom of expression is a human right.

Germany also has a current discussion about whether strengthening or removing a "blasphemy act".

A blasphemy act? Wait, you mean a "Your Rights End Where My Feelings Begin" Act?
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