The --Serious-- Political thread

[sashok]

 true true  I meant I\'ll wait till last month... aah whata hell I probably won\'t vote anywayz

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by sashok20
aah whata hell I probably won\'t vote anywayz

Nononono! Vote! It\'s more important than you think :|

[Vengeance]

Beating on the \"bad\" economy is a mistake for the Democrats.

Here is an article from 1996 (Clinton presidency) where CNN says:

Economists didn\'t expect June\'s unemployment rate to be much different from May\'s, which was an already-low 5.6 percent.... But five straight months of strong job gains now have analysts worried more about inflation.

They are saying not only is unemployment historically low, but that it reached that level after 5 months of gains, which means unemployment was even higher under Clinton than that, and that anything lower is potentially inflationary.

Now look here, where CNN says:

The U.S. unemployment rate jumped to 5.7 percent in November - the highest in six years - as employers cut hundreds of thousands more jobs in response to the first recession in a decade in the world\'s largest economy.

Two-face spinmeistering can fool the people who hate Bush into further deluding themselves that we are in a bad economy, but it is simply not the case.  And the first quote with a %0.1 difference in unemployment and a Democrat president illustrates that even they really know it.

The Dems need to find a new issue, or they are doomed.

Just one man\'s opinion...
- Venge

[Grakrim]

I\'m very much an extremist, so I expect to be countered by 99% of humanity.  In fact, if I were to express my true ideology to you, I\'m sure all of you would hate me... Or at least the US citizens.

Originally posted by Davis
1) Then what is? Senator? *snorts*

Well, Senator is very much a sibling office to Governor, so no, being a Senator alone doesn\'t make one suited to the task either.  I support Kerry because of his career, Bush has had none (other than being his father\'s son, obviously).  While I do not support combat in any form, Kerry did risk his life for the country, which can\'t be said for Bush, who joined the Reserve to dodge the draft, then didn\'t even show up in the first place.

Originally posted by Davis
3) That may or may not be true, but it\'s a good point. In my opinion, Iraq is better off without Saddam, so I have no problems with that.

I just don\'t see how we have the right to go in and change another soverign nation, especially one that poses no direct threat to the US.  All nations have the same innate right to exist independantly and under their own rule of law.

Originally posted by Davis
4) Most people seem to be in support of it; why shouldn\'t he?

The President has a moral right to uphold and defend the constitution, which should be beyond one\'s desire to be reelected.  This situation just proves how little respect Bush has for this nation.

As for the condition of the economy, its not terrible, but its not great either.  Despite his best, feeble, attempts, Bush has not been able to squeltch this situation.  Jobs have actually been lost under this administration.  And as for taxes, the average joe has recieved very little of Bush\'s promises, most of which going to the rich.  The rich don\'t need more money in their coffers.
You people also can\'t be so greedy, you sometimes have to take a hit for the greater good.  We as individuals don\'t matter, its the species -- the community -- that matters...

I do agree with you, Venge, the Democrat\'s economy campaign could backfire on them, but the situation would have to change...

The plain and simple is  the United States and everything it stands for disgusts me these days.  We\'ve fallen from our old graces on which this nation was founded.  The US was founded on the prospects of freedom, yet more and more of our freedoms are taken away...  How has our population become so bigoted?
As I forgot to earlier, I should also mention that even more than I hate Bush, I hate Ashcroft, but he\'s very much a product of Bush.  The \"Patriot Act\" makes our nation no better than Iraq.  I once expressed my views openly, but now I do not for fear of what they can do to me.  If my opinions don\'t coincide with what is \"normal\", or even if they don\'t coincide with Ashcroft, all my freedoms can be taken away for no reason, other than I used the freedoms in the first place.  The Patriot Act binds this nation, you call it a Democracy?
If only it was so simple, I\'d move to Canada; now that\'s a country.

Ah well, that\'s just my 2 cents; not that they\'re worth anything considering inflation...

[Kuiper7986]

Your right Grakim, in my humble opinion, its becoming like Vietnam again. I see the news and read newspapers and U.S Soldier\'s in \"a certain middle-eastern country\" have lost faith in their mission, all they want to do is to just come home, but they\'re in a \"certain middle eastern country,\" protecting what? I honestly have no idea.

As for the economy, I live in California where it\'s being hit just about the low as it can get. Look I can whine and moan all day and it won\'t do a damn thing. I\'m saying the President has to do the best he can do no matter what the circumstances are. At least Bush is trying to accomplish something, for the better or for the worse? I can\'t say...because I honestly don\'t know.

[Serphet]

well, i really didn\'t dislike bush about anything untill a really read about his \"no child shall be left behind\" thing.... thats the worst idea ever. What about the kids that dont want to even try-25% of my school? might want to change it to \"No child Shall Stand Ahead\".

another thing in school, the state cut the textbook  fund...why?....to fund the war.

Every year they raise the Curriculem (however its spelled) to a new level.. why would they do that if they just cut the textbook funds?...the \"war\".

The Media has alot of people turned against Teachers, at least here in Texas, for wasteing money and such.. Wrong... every year schools get less and less funding, mostly when bush is in office.

The Ends had better justify the means.


Another thing is the media, does anyone see how doubled sided it is? Anyone who says something against the Media is immediatly double crossed, spyed on.. or some way made a bad figure publicly, when everyone is the same way. at this point anything the \"media\" says, do the opposite.

[DepthBlade]

Well this conversation was actually taking place in the #planeshift room on IRC yesterday... All of Bush\'s actions are maybe not what everyone else wants, but it is what he wants. He is not doing things for personal money benefit (The mans family is rich enough as it is!) He is doing what he thinks is right, and since no one is standing up to stop him and tell him he is wrong, NOTHING WILL CHANGE!! I can say alot more relating back to past events within his family and such but it all seems pointless....

(I didn\'t even understand what the question was Monketh so I just put down my personal opinion. Sorry if it wasn\'t what you wanted! *discharges a bullet into his head* )

[paxx]

Ok, political talk and I have homework to do, So, I?ll talk politics.

My issues with Bush, are based on two areas, China and personal freedoms. We have not been hard on china because there is money to be made (both parties are guilty as hell about this)
As for the loss of personal freedoms again both parties (or we can say both this president and the former are guilty of this, same with China)

In essence many of the things thrown Bush?s way in this thread can be said of Clinton.

Bombing in Sariavo   (no idea how to spell it) was not supported by the UN, Somolia was a terrible disaster and contributed to many countries thinking the US is weak. During the Clinton administration the CIA and Military where both downsized and lost major funding. We bombed Iraq without UN support, We bombed Sudan without UN support. Syria offered the US Osama Bin Laden, we refused. A Deal was brokered with North Korea to give them oil and  Nuclear Reactors as long as they don?t make bombs, that was a poor choice of action as we see now.

The economy, is pretty harsh, mainly because of our having to adjust to a cheaper workforce due to free trade, that is not really free both Bush?s and Clinton Championed that cause.

I mean not free because other countries work much cheaper or have forced labor, and much worse environmental/workplace safety then the US does.    

Our power infrastructure is old and in vital need of modernization, yet no one wants a power plant near them.  (Democrats are mainly to blame for this one, but Republicans share in this).

Governor is probably the closest thing to being president available, and Texas, New York, California are probably the best example states to do it in due to small cities and large ones and the diversity in the states. But I think no job can train you to be President of the US.
Senators are legislative, they make law and budgets, the president and governors must lead, push the legislation to get what they want, but deal with what they get. Yet Presidents and Governors are held accountable for both the good and the bad that from both, Senators are almost never held accountable.

Kerry is an interesting fellow, though I think the best Democratic candidate to challenge Bush would have been either Edwards or Lieberman.  Overall we have two establishment candidates now,  both are beholden to ?special interests? as is every politician, but both of these especially so.

The only points of contention is our ?war? on terror and taxes. On the war on terror I truly think we could do better then we are doing in Iraq and that we have made many mistakes, but it is going forward and we have about 250 years at this rate to equal the losses we had in Vietnam.  I truly think that improving the lives of the people in the middle east and showing strength when wronged is a good policy and works well, the biggest failure so far has been PR or Propaganda, Bush and his team just don?t get how to do it.

On Taxes, I am a strong believer that less taxes the better, the federal government needs to get smaller in a big way, they have one major job, keeping the US safe They are failing in some ways in more ways then terrorists, but improving. Where the big failure seems to be is good Jobs. And that comes in phases, the boom of the 90s we will likely only see in 20 years time. Getting us to a good point is going to take some craftiness and quite possibly some sacrifices.  Allowing oil to be drilled throughout the US including off the coast of Florida and California and in Alaska could drive gas prices down and lower the cost of energy across the board, but we would have to put a no export clause on that drilling and use much of the money saved to build the infrastructure for an oil free economy.

For me this election is more about who is more likely to lead us in the direction I hope we go?

My major fear is what if Janet Reno had the powers available in the patriot act, and who is the most likely to use them abusively.

Also to consider, is who is a better person to lead this nation in a time where we are at war and in a truly new economy.  

Sadly the choice is between a guy who lacks any ability as an orator, and a guy who seems to never held to a core decision or opinion in his life.  I will not vote for a person simply because he is not the guy in power, I will and have voted for third parties. The sad thing is, our two party primary system of late creates extremists and not centrists?but what the hay it?s politics as usual.  

So for the long and short of it, I will likely vote for Bush, but I will not vote for Kerry no matter what happens, I am not as vehement in this as I was with Gore, Gore scared me and his wife really scared me?but that is for another day, I have homework to do.

[Wedge]

Presidents are just avatars to represent ideals that are all the same at the core and only exist to provide the illusion of democracy.  Which is fine.  That\'s key to the image the nation needs for it to have such a thriving diverse populace.  All the power of how the nation handles it\'s affairs is incredibly spread out over all the facets that make it such a force.  This means the country will never be able to reach any new heights of civilization, but should keep it adaptable and survivable.  America isn\'t the ideal gig, but neither is humanity.

[Davis]

Originally posted by paxx The sad thing is, our two party primary system of late creates extremists and not centrists?but what the hay it?s politics as usual.

But then, \"politics as usual\" is exactly what is destroying and will destroy the county. You\'re exactly right, and extremists of any type have been the people who cause most of the evil in the world.

[Half_Pint]

The \"Patriot Act\" is unpatriotic, and as far as I understand the term, un-American.  How else can you describe a law that allows the government to spy on, arrest, and put on trial its citizens without paying any attention to the Constitution?  (What happened to \"liberty and justice for all?\")

You may say that it\'s OK because it was passed by congress, but the fact is that most of the congress had no idea what exactly they were voting on.  The review of the Act was made one evening, and Bush\'s cronies changed it during the night.  In the morning, when the congress voted, they assumed it was the same thing they had argued over the previous day.  But of course it wasn\'t...

And then there\'s the issue of gay marriage, or rather Bush\'s opposition to it.  It\'s one thing to not like it, or even to ban it, but to ALTER the CONSTITUTION merely to disallow it?!  Is gay marriage so wrong that it is as important to Americans as their right to bear guns?  (That was another thing which resulted in a constitutional ammendment.) Or is it only that important to Bush, as he seeks to gain the full conservative vote?  

I think it was best said by Pierre Elliot Trudeau:  
\"The government has no place in the bedrooms of the nation.\"

Whatever else he has or hasn\'t done for the United States, George Bush Jr. is, in my opinion, going against everything the US stands for.  

Please don\'t read anything into this little speech...  I\'m not anti-American, just anti-Bush.  I think the US is an incredible country, but with a leader who\'s too anxious to follow in his daddy\'s footsteps for his own good.

I\'m just curious about something, though.  Do you think that the US has been discriminating against those of Middle Eastern descent since 9/11?

[Caldazar]

I haven\'t had time to carefully read all of the posts in here, so I\'ll just give my input on the America\'s \"Thief in Chief\".

George W. Bush is a danger to himself, to America and to the whole world. I fear that we will not survive four more years of Bush-administration.
I just read \"Stupid white men...\" by Michael Moore, so this might seem like propaganda to you... oh well, its late and I\'m tired.
Bush is destroying every good connection that the US has with middle-east countries and so on. The fact that he invaded Iraq without any kind of proof is horrible. The fact that he got away with it is even more terrifying. What if EU suddenly launched an attack on the US? We have all the evidence we need.
1.) America has nuclear weapons.
2.) America could pose a threat to us in the future.
3.) America has oil and other resources.

Enough about Bush, let\'s go on to democrats.
They\'re just as horrible as the republicans. They want the exact same thing, and they are founded by the exact same companies. Clinton refused to sign the Kyoto-treaty, which again demonstrates the arrogance of America.
Democrats, just like republicans, supports the big companies, wants to exploit the nature and help themselves on the cost of the people.

Ralph Nader might not be a good politician, but it can\'t get much worse can it?

[Dalec]

Caldazar we aren\'t going to be invaded for one major reason you must have over-looked. We are the world super power, we have more political control and military power than any other country. If we were to be invaded, we still have a large list of allies who would support us. We have a more stable government than most as well. We have become big brother, and therefore it is redundant to say we will be invaded because we have nuclear weapons. Not to mention, any country that would be worth fighting would have nukes of their own.

I agree on one thing though, The republicans and democrats both have their own evils.

[Davis]

Gay marriage: This is an example of the government being too intrusive into people\'s lives. I get really pissed off every time I see another way the government tries to get into your everyday lives. A long time ago, the government took up less than 10% of our nation whoojimawhatsit, and now it takes up over 40% (if you don\'t know what I mean by whoojimawhatsit, you can at least notice the increaing numbers). Whenever we have a problem, the immediate response is to pass a law. People can solve their own problems, we don\'t need more and more laws.

Size of government: See previous.

Pariot Act: This allows the government to moniter normal people, but not terrorists who would take more care to keep secret. It\'s useless and infringes on people\'s privacy.

War in Iraq: Saddam Hussain is out, the people of Iraq aren\'t oppressed, and we get cheaper oil. What\'s everyone complaining about?

Bi-partisan system: Having too parties breeds extremeism and defeats common sense. They have become so philosophically opposed that they have to disagree with each other even when the other is right to maintain popularity. We need more than two political parties, this system is stupid. This is what will ultimately destroy the country.

Kyoto treaty: It bans teeth whitening. Of course we aren\'t signing it.

To answer Half-Pint\'s question, I have not noticed any discrimination against Muslims and Arabs and such.

[Caldazar]

Originally posted by Dalec
Caldazar we aren\'t going to be invaded for one major reason you must have over-looked. We are the world super power, we have more political control and military power than any other country. If we were to be invaded, we still have a large list of allies who would support us. We have a more stable government than most as well. We have become big brother, and therefore it is redundant to say we will be invaded because we have nuclear weapons. Not to mention, any country that would be worth fighting would have nukes of their own.

I agree on one thing though, The republicans and democrats both have their own evils.

I was just making an example, to show how silly I found America\'s newfound Big Brother-style.
The american goverment has become to paranoid.
You\'re wrong about one thing though, how many allies does the US have outside the EU?
I said that the EU would invade the US, and I don\'t think that you have that many allies outside western Europe, not counting Israel.