Author Topic: Implementing the Element of Risk  (Read 1113 times)

Aramara Meibi

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Implementing the Element of Risk
« on: January 26, 2012, 01:44:53 pm »
Caution: The ideas contained herein are dangerous to the status quo and familiarity of the game. Please read at your own RISK.

I write this with much trepidation; it started as I approached my personal one year anniversary of playing Planeshift, and I wanted to take a look back, do some introspection, review the progress of the game, and discuss the current state of things. I've voiced my opinion about many issues, the topics of many various threads and I know that I am in the minority opinion on many of these things. Still, this being a tiny fragment of the internet, I feel empowered to make my voice heard, regardless of the inevitable backlash which will follow. All I ask is, please be civil, do not flame. The ideas I'm about to propose are indeed heretical, noncomformist, and would require an absolute clearing of the slate on much of the development of the game in favor of a system that works. I understand that this will be perceived by many as a threat. I do not intend to threaten your feeling of security. In fact, I intend to liberate you from it.

Many of the issues being debated throughout this forum I feel can be boiled down to one clear, underlying problem. That is the ever present disparity and expanding gulf between the mechanical side of the game and the intended purpose of the game, which was once stated as Role Play. In essence, the mechanics do nothing to promote, advocate, or aid in fostering role play, and in many cases actually impede upon it.

Read through any one of the many stories posted under the Roleplaying (Communitive Storywriting) heading. Go ahead, I'm patient, I can wait... finished? Good. You see, that is what I and I have to believe at least two other players expect from our gameplay. Do those stories derive from the mechanics? The simple answer is 'No', those stories in fact ignore mechanics in favor of narrative. That is, according to the stated purpose of this game, an absolute crime and a crying shame. I say, give me a mechanical system from which such narratives can emerge from naturally.

One way to combat this issue is to implement the element of risk. Risk is nowhere apparent within the context of this game. There is, in fact, no way for a character to 'lose' anything, that is unless the player is willing to let it happen. You want to avoid godmodding? Implement risk into the system. Let me touch on some fundamental points in the game where risk should be a crucial element, but is glaringly missing.

Combat: For starters, combat should be a RARE occurrence, and should be DANGEROUS to the combatants. Encounters with mobs should be an event, in which the player feels the strain and stress of their character, who is fighting for their very lives against brutal, wild creatures. To begin, lets do away with the static spawn points and docile herds of mobs who just stand there waiting to be slaughtered. An elegant solution would be to spawn mobs at a map's edge, as individuals or in small groups, and have them migrate across the map to a different edge via a randomly generated but reasonable path. Timid and docile creatures would stray away from adventurers, while more aggressive creatures would seek them out. Doesn't that sound FUN? Furthermore, lets do away with the hitpoint system in favor of a system that accounts for how an actual living body functions. Being hit in the arm with a steel battle axe for 49.85 damage is a ludicrous statement. Being hit in the arm with a steel battle axe, cutting through flesh and bone, severing nerves and tendons, losing your grip on your shield or weapon, going into shock from the pain and blood loss, even losing the limb completely, that is all reasonable, dangerous, risky, and makes for a good story. Give me a combat system where I can aim my attacks for weakpoints, cripple opponents, go for a kill shot, dodge, parry, counter. Give me a combat system that has lasting, detrimental effects on my character. Loss of limbs, nerve damage, scars.

Magic: Magic in this game is entirely too easy, and carries no risk. Magic should be an absolutely risky artform, as you are using arcane forces, playing with the elemental forces of the universe. It shouldn't be such an easy task. It should also have detrimental, long lasting effects on your character, via mechanics. As it stands, I can just stand on a rock and blast helpless creatures into oblivion with a machine gun spray of fireballs, with no risk or repercussions. So it drains MP, but what effect does that have on my character? Why doesn't she get drowsy, or grow feeble from the exertion? Give the character tangible consequences for their actions, don't rely on the player to RP it out. Make RP an undeniable, integral part of gameplay. Let's close the gap between grinders and RPers. Perhaps a riskier system may be a Vancian, or a ritual magic system, where spells must be prepared beforehand and thus are limited. Spells which weaken a character upon casting would be favorable too.

Death: In conclusion, where it belongs, Death. Death, as it stands, is a joke. It's either a minor inconvenience or is shortcut back to town. It's only a real problem to a new player who is lost in the DR for the first time. I understand that there are plans to make the DR a less navigable place, with entrances and exits shifting at random, a nebulous labyrinth, a real ordeal to traverse, so I won't discuss that. What I will ask for is a game mechanic which enforces Permanent Death. Make Permanent Death a real risk that characters and players both must face and suffer, whether it be through criminal execution, assassination, or strictly being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course, this would require more settings discussion on what exactly can cause permanent death.

I expect the popular argument against these changes will be, "But Aramara! I've spent years grinding away turning my helpless peasant into an almighty demigod, I don't want to LOSE my character!"

Learn to lose, learn to live.

I'd love to discuss other options for a gaming system that doesn't include leveling through endless grinding, but perhaps that's for a separate thread.
all blessings to the assembled devotees.

bilbous

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2012, 02:15:10 pm »
The problem with this approach is that only the exceptionally lucky would survive their first trip to the Bronze Doors with a still playable character. After all you would want to change characters ability to outrun any critters wouldn't you? As it stands now the only danger they possess is if you run out of stamina and have to rest, or they somehow hide behind a rock and surprise you.

I have to say, I played the old Runequest pen and paper role playing game which had such a brutal philosophy and more often than not one or more players did not survive half the adventure and rolling a new character was overly common and wasted everybody else's time.

If you are going to go this route you might as well just stop saving characters between sessions because the only characters who are going to stick around are the ones that play out "The Young and the Restless" or "Coronation Street."

I can see it now "well I lost another arm today, walking from Hydlaa here to Ojaveda. Fed it to an ulbernaut, I did. Good thing I still have my legs, it is"

Aramara Meibi

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2012, 02:49:44 pm »
Like I said, I'd expect encounters with the more dangerous beasts to be rare, but the threat of the chance of such an encounter would greatly promote roleplay. Guards would be hired to escort caravans along viable trade routes, players would group up as adventurers and go seek out that troublesome Ulbernaut who's been ravaging the road from Hydlaa to Ojaveda to vanquish it and return with it's head in a sack and be treated to a hero's banquet. Why? because they actually risked something to do so.

The loss of life and limb can be counteracted by a more thoroughly thought out magic and death system. Lose a limb in battle and manage to survive? Offer a sacrifice to the right Deity and you just might get it back. Happen to bleed out and die? Make a deal with Dakkru to allow you to return to the land of the living intact, in exchange for carrying out her demands. Spells that, rather than add to your hitpoint count, instead cauterize severe wounds, or regenerate lost limbs, but at a heavy price for the caster. Afterall, Xiosia demands balance, doesn't she?

Ideally this would lead to the formation of adventuring groups, comprised of characters fulfilling different strategic roles, rather than individual ubermensch who specialize in everything and are masters of all, both sword and magic, armor and stealth, strength and agility, brains and brawn. There has got to be give AND take, wins AND losses.
all blessings to the assembled devotees.

Tzarhunt

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2012, 03:37:53 pm »
Or even better; Character waaay stronger at creation, with a handful of high skills and only bases in a few others, no orvery little progression possible, and any death is permanent.

Write an original background every week, or be very cunning and prudent and live a month or so, old-school-Cthulu like.

Chessire

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2012, 03:38:30 pm »
I think you are right, there's lots of rooms for improvement on this topic. Sitting on the tavern and discussing you have 200 ulbernaut furs in the bank is hilarious, same when you have to stand on a rock and throw arrows to standing mobs to lvl up. On the other hand, the devs, as well as many players are aware of that, with the last updates the mobs are not killed as fast and their rewards are higher.

Your proposition may sound a bit extreme to some people but I think its the right way to go. Being reckless should bear penalties that are not easy to overcome. I like your ideas on passing a test from Dakkru to leave the DR and having to find healers to treat your permanent wounds. All these armor spells that now just add a number to an equation could gain secondary protective effects against permanent harm too. About the DR, perhaps a randomly generated labyrinth would work, something like that has already been mentioned concerning randomly generated "rabbit holes" created by creature tribes. Especially if its a labyrinth full of monsters!  :devil:

One last thing, all these will make the game more fun but will not prevent the appearance of the "semi-gods" (very nice term btw) and having characters permanently killed without the player's agreement is a step that will have to be very seriously discussed since it would  change the style of the game a lot. Personally I'd be willing to give it a thought. If not though, something needs to be done, my idea is increasing the experience needed to lvl up in each skill with every skill lvl you already have. That would prevent someone gaining highest ability in too many things. Perhaps mastering a Way of magic would double the exp needed to master a second way (and quadruple for a 3rd way). This requires another thread if it is ever considered.

I hope this thread goes a long way with lots of suggestions... you have hit a very crucial point here!

Aramara Meibi

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2012, 04:05:47 pm »
Write an original background every week, or be very cunning and prudent and live a month or so, old-school-Cthulu like.

of course, there are peaceful alternatives to the daring adventurer available. but what about implementing the dangers of everyday town-dwelling folk: crime, poverty, famine, and disease. not enough players playing as farmers and cooks? too bad, your entire city population was just wiped out. better luck next time. of course, this would require implementing hunger and thirst, and an overall health status.

I don't think ALL death should be permanent, but death should be made into a much more strenuous ordeal. Or in a Dakkruist's mindset, the perfect vacation getaway.
all blessings to the assembled devotees.

Tzarhunt

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2012, 04:11:48 pm »
I don't think ALL death should be permanent, but death should be made into a much more strenuous ordeal. Or in a Dakkruist's mindset, the perfect vacation getaway.

I'd love to see escaping the Death Realm as something legendary, that only a few can achieve. The place would be full of hidden dangers, dead ends and traps. It could be randomly generated as you advance, and change over time so you couldn't get back on you tracks (what you say? Code-wise impossible? Damn...).

Your idea concerning farmers (and by extent any related concept) is seductive but I think hard to be put alive, since it'd take a lot more players, and it's a character-concept almost no-one would like to play. Let the NPC do the boring stuff, we're here to play!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 04:13:25 pm by Tzarhunt »

Chessire

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 04:22:18 pm »
Actually I disagree with that, I have played a game recently that implemented not only farming, woodcutting and various other forms of crafting and resource gathering but even ecosystems, politics and real economy. It is as fun as it can get, believe me. And it doesn't take a lot of players, fewer players means less quantity of food needed of course.
But saying how all this is missing from the game right now doesn't make much sense, there are many more things that need to be implemented first.

Rigwyn

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2012, 05:00:45 pm »
Aramara, these are awesome ideas, however I have to differ on one fine point, and that's the separation of roleplay and game mechanics.

How many one armed, tailless, blind, or fingerless characters do you see in planeshift?

Few

This is a clear indicationn in my opinion, that most folks would not enjoy being dismembered. I have also found this true when roleplaying violent scenes... Most players do not want permanent damage.

I don't fault players for this like I used to, rather I find that I have to respect their preferences - whether I like it or not.

A while ago I requested that there be a pvp zone by the plat mines so that theives would have a chance to steal - threatening to kill them if they didn't pay up. I also wanted to be able to have a chance at pick pocketing against a character's will. What I have come to see since then is that its better to go with what the player consents to.

When you go against what the player wants you end up with drama, hurt feelings, and so on. That kinda sucks when you are just trying to have some fun.

So where am I going?

As a player, I don't want the game mechanics to interfere with my roleplay or with my characters. If I fall off a cliff because I spilled coffee on ly mouse, or get killed by a gm-animated maulber with invincibility mode on, I'm not going to roleplay a death.

The same goes for npc's. Just because a guard npc just stands there all day, doesn't mean I should rp that he is a useless tool who is frozen stiff or who just doesn't care.

There are many fine spots like this you have to separate roleplay from the mechanics -- otherwise you end up with inconsistent rp.

Another example is the death realm. I can run through it in a few minutes, but do just pop b ack like nothing happened would violate settings.

Lastly, I come accross as criticizing your ideas, I appologize - that's not my intention.

Whisper Bless,
Rigwyn

Gilrond

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2012, 05:01:39 pm »
Reminds me a bit of the old Sierra quests, where you poor char instantly died in a huge variety of ways, just stepping in the wrong direction, or pulling some wrong thing. They were rather fun because of the stress element (but at some point fun becomes frustrating).

In general I agree that currently the risk element isn't implemented properly. The fact that creatures are static, non agressive, don't move around and so on impacts the game very badly. Any intended benefits against abusing dynamic mobs are outweighed by the stalled and frozen world.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 05:03:30 pm by Gilrond »

Aramara Meibi

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 05:58:10 pm »
Rigwyn, I would suggest that, in a system in which there is a risk of losing one's limb, there should also be a way to gain that limb back and overcome injury. That's where magic and other things come in. But it shouldn't be as easy as selecting a target and pushing a button, there should be some concept of equivalent exchange taking place, a price to be paid. If you become injured and crippled in battle, that should set you off on a quest to find a way to heal from it, whether that be Crystal Way, or through your chosen Deity, Alchemy, or heck, even crafting a replacement limb from a tree branch and animating it with Brown Way. The possibilities should only be limited by settings and the imagination of the player. But do you see how that narrative emerges from the gameplay mechanics? that's what I'm after.

I could go on and on about how the game would be much better off without the NPCs, but that's a conversation for another thread. I'll meet you there. ;)
all blessings to the assembled devotees.

Rigwyn

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 06:02:05 pm »
Actually, as I understand, the game originally did not have all this jazz, so there was more focus on imagination and pretending. I wasn't playing back then, so I'll end it there...



Gilrond

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 06:23:14 pm »
Nothing beats real "paper" roleplay Aramara. I doubt you can ever achieve the same feeling in the computer game.

Korumak

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2012, 10:15:21 pm »
What it sounds to me what Aramara is looking for is called "Free Form Role Playing", and well its just not in the scope of a PC game let alone a MMORPG game.

Though having some kind of "Permadeath" game trigger I do like, how ever the only way i could foresee-ably see it coming to pass is an extra incentive not to go to "God hood".  Meaning the more Maxed out you are the higher chances you don't come back. (like your highest skill level 100, highest stat 200, starts the low percentage all the way to max, where its high 90's of not returning)

Why? For one if you look at say your classic role playing and fantasy worlds, Arch Mages are extraordinarily rare, and guards are a dime a dozen.  The above idea would help re-enforce that idea.  Second you don't really want to go after all levels of players equally.  Some players just like to "Free form" it in the game, granted most of them don't end up in the death realm because they don't quest and don't power up and refuse any RP fights where their character might be nicked.   Theres also the fact the community so shoves down a new persons throat "Just starting, READ EVERYTHING AND BE AND EXPERT IN PS before you move away from that spawn field", an exaggeration yes but you see my point.  Now if Joe blow just spent a week building up a his first character, learning then oppses, falling off the cliff, boom permadeath, thats just one more excuse to "Quit playing Planeshift".
If you take 'permadeath' to the extreme, of makeing it a rarity coming out alive, then it will drastically alter how things are done in game.  (what happened to X, the husband, the merchant who was buying X) etc.  Worse yet, theres a game called "Parinoia" where your given 7 clones and the object of the game is to survive roughly the first adventure with at least one in tact.  You implement that say even 5% will survive? how detailed am i going to make a background on a character whose lifespan is only going to last a week.  Why join a guild, heck why make a guild, or and adventuring band... no point, you will be dead by friday.
Also with an MMORPG you have an "Online Identity" how would you keep track of the regular players you play with when their identities flying by on a daily basis... the worst case of Character gen... Hes the brother of X who was the brother... second cousin, just to try to keep a name so their friends know who they are, let alone keep track of any RP plot lines.  You can forget people making backgrounds or a interesting character, you just die after 7 days of either an opps or a "Random encounter".  At least with a GM they can 'pull a punch' giving your character a chance to escape.  Computer games just don't do that.  You just don't have that with an MMORPG or any PC RPG I ever seen.  BUT...

An Idea that had a while back might give you something of what you wanted but the Licenses procudes making it.  Its to take the game it self, strip the quests, the training elevating and turning it into a 3D Virtual High Fantasy Free Form RPG.  That way players or a GM could direct the shots.  But you cant have that unless the licenses says so, and so Art, Concept, Monsters, ie all belong to the company that owns the rights to planeshift and 'cant be duplicated'.  Since the games in beta, and they haven't finished it, any steps to making the one above wont work.

What might make an interesting project is to create the 3d high fantasy Free Form game using Planeshift system but you would literally have to create your own world, plus provide tons of art.  I have thought about doing this my self, kind of setting it to a AD&D world of FR or a homage of sorts to it, but don't have 10 years to devote to making all of it happen.

As far as Loosing an arm goes... We got character races still missing skins that cant even sit down right, and you want to add missing appendages?

I'm beginning to think this thread should be in the 'complaint department'.

"You can never have too many cat girls!" and you can quote me on that! 

novacadian

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Re: Implementing the Element of Risk
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2012, 11:35:46 pm »

There appears, to me, to be a basic concept of the original poster. The basic concept seems, to me, to be that PS game mechanics have;  by and large; not supported the original concept of the free form RP which PS has been known for in the past.  (Nor has the game mechanics supported even the more traditional table top rpg style of game play.)

It would surprise me a great deal to see development of this project make such a radical change to accommodate what the OP has in mind.

That is not to say that the development team has not given the means to make such a game world possible.

Just take a look at a screenshot of the PS server running on my computer. There seems plenty there to have a group of characters being run by a GM through some adventure. Maybe a dwarf will have to stand in for a goblin until someone gets blender figured out; yet we have all been there with miniatures filling in for something or another that they were not intended for in table rpgs.

It would be very interesting to see such a project; which would only add mechanics and art work that aided the goals of the OP; becoming a reality.

The tools appear available to make such a project a reality. What seems lacking is the will to make such a project a reality by those who seem to show a desire for it via similar threads and postings on this forum.

- Nova