Author Topic: Make skill building take less time  (Read 2752 times)

weltall

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2010, 02:37:39 am »
Then again, we'd probably still find something else to whine about. Us PS players are a fussy bunch. ;D

like everyone is maxed and it's all flat :)

Nivm

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2010, 07:03:55 am »
 Making the skills harder or easier to level is a superficial change (as is making them more profitable or less), compared to changing how skills work to remove grinding completely. This can be accomplished ~3 ways. The first and foremost (and frowned upon) is to be allowed to automate tasks so the player no longer has to spend time waiting. {Waiting to get somewhere, waiting to finish a task, waiting for a task to be finished, waiting for the next level, waiting for enough supplies. All this time spent waiting in these MMOs is their most horrible product, or non-product as the case may be.} This can either merely be the ability to program shortcuts, or an entire system, even economy, based around allow the player's character to do something when the player isn't there. The second solution is detail work covering the economy and skill system of the entire game, to balance it so that you are never just "leveling up a skill" but are instead "filling an order" or "helping one more skilled to fill an order". The third is similar to the second, but involves placing numerous fluid limits and discouraging mechanics to iron the system into shape (players generally hate this unless the programmers were subtle and the players don't remember what they're missing).
 Since the second and third require more details and more paragraphs than I'm willing to collect or create, I will only finish the first here. Currently the shortcut system is just a way to keep from having to type so much, but could be expanded. By adding support mechanics for timers, triggers, better targeting, arguments, and minor movement, a person would be able to create a single button labeled "smith (metal) (object)" to complete the entire (now decently complicated) task. Thus allowing the person to do other things that aren't quite so pointless or ephemeral.
  As I understand it, people find this system despicable, as it removes the "effort" (read "monotonous clicking") and "perseverance" (read "time dumped") required to gain higher skill levels. I don't mean to mock this point of view, and understand it, especially from those who have had to go through it. If such a thing is implemented, all the trouble they went to for their level is made less valuable (like stocks that go bad), because now no one else has to go through the same trouble they did to get that level. I can't think of any solution to the emotional component to that, but I know that it would be much better people didn't have waste their time persevering through the monotony.
  The expanded shortcut system would still require that the person watch what their character is doing, and react when someone comes by. Chatting would disrupt the system in some cases, but one of its main values would be the ability to do so while you work; be it in speech, tells, or the gossip channel. It would be good in this case if chatting during a high-concentration task would disrupt the automated system, while mindless tasks would have no problem.
 That is just macros, but there is a far greater possible system. One in which your character, on your wish, will continue to do (a) certain thing(s) while you are logged off. The character would be passed off to the NPC server's control and follow a certain schedule you planned out before. Someone might say "but if everyone uses this all the time, skills levels might as well not exist", along with the fact that the server probably couldn't handle such a thing. The solution is thus; hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and disorder. When you use this system, your character will no longer be immune to these things; you must get food and drink, and find accommodations beforehand. The time your character can work, and the time required for life's necessities, will be displayed in its own window where you plan. During planning, you must tell your character exactly how they will organize the time those necessities grant them (with a time-block UI). This planning can either have a pre-set list of individual tasks you fill the time with, or can use something similar to the shortcut programming. It will also need to be decided whether or not such individuals will even be rendered (they could add real hustle and bustle to a city), or if everything they do will be calculated once then left as timers with dice rolls. If you do not use the system, your character will go into log-out stasis as usual.

 What am I missing?

Addeline

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2010, 07:34:37 am »

Entevir

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2010, 07:41:52 am »
The whole skill up while your logged off system kind of reminds me of Eve online. Though I must admit I only read about the game. Would be nice to know how it worked there for some form(though crude) of measuring its efectiveness.

Personally I don't think the whole "persist in the game world" part can be made to work without some very sophisticated programing.
The first problem would be the fact that an entire horde of mindless smelters at Harnquist's would break the RP into shriveled and dead little bits.
Second. Players would recognise these players(NPC's). Lets say my mindless drone self wanders around on the roads and bumps into an aquaintance that I'm not exactly on friendly terms with. Does the server let him fight back ? If so what if he had tools equiped, does it switch out weapons ? And a lot of tiny little problems. Also if you did let them attack and it was the mindless NPC fighting style I could see a lot of griefing happening every chance there is. STONES INCOMING !!!

Other then these few troublesome moresels I generally agree with you(Nivm). Reducing the time and effort it takes to max out characters isn't exactly good. I've seen it done in a few games most noteably in Dwarf Fortress on adventure mode. You could max you little fellow in an hour and go demon slaying. Not exactly enthralling. It also just makes you wanna waste that little bit of time to max out more.

Hope that was coherent. Aparently I'm too good not to be in a rush while posting.

What am I missing?

Readability

Ouch...
If I stand on the axis of the world will you mind if I say that the world revolves around me ?

Elady

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2010, 08:09:52 am »
Personally I don't understand this fascination so many people have with Maxing their stats/skills.  I have been playing for the better part of two years now and I have two skills maxed. I don't feel a pressing need to hurry up and get other skills maxed. If it is made easier to max skills then guess what, everyone is going to be the same with the same skills and stats and then people are going to complain that what is the point of being maxed since everyone is maxed.  The way some people are saying that grinding is bad for the game why don't you just go all the way with your argument and ask that when you first create you character give a player the ability to max all their stats and skills at character creation. Being maxed from the start will eliminate all need for that evil grinding. And while you are at it give all characters Winch access as part of character creation since it takes to much time to gain winch access.


Nivm

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2010, 10:32:10 am »
 Sorry about that "readability" you speak, it has been a long time since I had trouble reading.

 The technical difficulties are one reason why I called it a "a far greater possible system". This would be a massive undertaking that would cause great change within the game.
 I didn't know that Eve Online used that kind of system, but I know that game focuses mainly on PvP, betrayal, and collecting large amounts of power. On it's good days it has large, destructive battles with multiple fleets of ships. So I assume that the general effect of this system is a change in focus from collecting resources to using them, and hopefully to player-interaction as well.

 On those technical difficulties, they will add to the methods that discourage the constant use of such a system. That's why I included hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and the control difficulties involved. When you run out of any resource, the character will be placed in normal log-out stasis (I thought this was implicit). The person using it must also understand the dangers involved (assuming that the characters will be visible in world, and assuming it isn't all turned to a simple timer with numbers), including any confusion, possible griefing, and errors.
 It would be mostly for those that wont expect the character to run into any trouble, and just want them to have a normal day of their lives; the crafters and workers doing on a daily basis. It would also be possible to hide names, or recolor them as NPCs, or even remove the option to attack them or interact completely; like a lot of NPCs.

 Heh, Dwarf Fortress has a good skill system, but it's not the kind that can work with a multiplayer game, where people are competitive and want their skills to be valuable.

Oh, and just to make it explicit...
The way some people are saying that grinding is bad for the game why don't you just go all the way with your argument and ask that when you first create you character give a player the ability to max all their stats and skills at character creation. Being maxed from the start will eliminate all need for that evil grinding. And while you are at it give all characters Winch access as part of character creation since it takes to much time to gain winch access.
Someone might say "but if everyone uses this all the time, skills levels might as well not exist", along with the fact that the server probably couldn't handle such a thing. The solution is thus; hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and disorder. When you use this system, your character will no longer be immune to these things; you must get food and drink, and find accommodations beforehand.
The points are not worded the same way, nor are they the same idea, but address the same thing, and have the same answer.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 10:35:04 am by Nivm »

Illysia

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2010, 11:38:17 am »
Personally I don't understand this fascination so many people have with Maxing their stats/skills. 

This comes directly from applying a linear game mindset to a non linear game. Apparently some people cannot set level goals for themselves so they just keep on grinding or whatever they do till the mechanics stops them. Those kinds of people often treat maxing their stats/skills as an equivalent to beating the game, the problem comes though when they've max their stats and the game is still going with nothing else for them to substitute as an endgame.

The problem is less grinding and more being able to tell yourself that your character doesn't have to be maxed out and that it is capable of doing what it needs to do. For instance, once I realized that I wasn't going to unlock anymore recipes, I stopped training cooking and baking. At that point  Illysia could cook whatever it was I needed her  to cook and I didn't need to further waste time on it.

You just really got to have a goal of what you want your character to do more so than a number in mind. If you need to be able to hunt ulbers, then stop training once you can successfully take them down on a regular basis. ;) Only letting mechanics dictate when and where you stop becomes a type of Rule Playing and though not bad in of itself, you can't get as much out of a Role Playing game that way.



But on the topic of how to arrange a system:

I think Mabinogi has a good system. Despite the lack of RP in most cases, it does have a pretty high level of player cooperation for things like crafting and such. It's normal skill cap for any skill is less than 20 without taking the advancement exam to get to beyond that. Even then, you can't go too much higher than that. And it only takes 100 points to rank the skill. (mind you that's where they kill you with point decrease per training method) They use a progression system somewhat similar to PS but on a way smaller scale and that smaller scale is what forces people work together. If you don't have the necessary AP (what their PP is called. ;) ) to rank up to the level needed to make something, you ask your friend that has already done it to come help.

Also, the way you apply AP helps. All the AP does is allow you to get the the next level to train it, unlock it if you will... Once you get the next level, you just follow what the skills window tells you to train. So for cooking, you have to cook certain types of food (as each type of cooking has it's own rank. i.e. boiling is it's own rank), you have to read a book on the next level, and then you have to eat foods of the relevant cooking type for your level. Once you do that, you rank up with the necessary about of AP and then train for the next level. The Mabinogi system allows for both the theoretical knowledge part, and the practical training part (killing mobs won't cut it for anything but combat training) but uses a way more efficient system.

Sarras Volcae

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2010, 02:31:28 pm »
actually, i'd like to max out some skills just so my character can be super awesome. simple as that. it's not an endgame. you keep playing, questing, duelling, roleplaying, etc. i want to max because my character wants to max, too. she wants to become a guard or a great fighter or whatever. it's probably the same with all the "powerlevellers".

this is still a video game, after all. saying otherwise is lying.

isn't mabinogi for 10-year-olds?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 02:34:31 pm by Sarras Volcae »

kaerli2

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2010, 05:26:06 pm »
Personally I don't understand this fascination so many people have with Maxing their stats/skills. 

This comes directly from applying a linear game mindset to a non linear game. Apparently some people cannot set level goals for themselves so they just keep on grinding or whatever they do till the mechanics stops them. Those kinds of people often treat maxing their stats/skills as an equivalent to beating the game, the problem comes though when they've max their stats and the game is still going with nothing else for them to substitute as an endgame.

The problem is less grinding and more being able to tell yourself that your character doesn't have to be maxed out and that it is capable of doing what it needs to do. For instance, once I realized that I wasn't going to unlock anymore recipes, I stopped training cooking and baking. At that point  Illysia could cook whatever it was I needed her  to cook and I didn't need to further waste time on it.

You just really got to have a goal of what you want your character to do more so than a number in mind. If you need to be able to hunt ulbers, then stop training once you can successfully take them down on a regular basis. ;) Only letting mechanics dictate when and where you stop becomes a type of Rule Playing and though not bad in of itself, you can't get as much out of a Role Playing game that way.



But on the topic of how to arrange a system:

I think Mabinogi has a good system. Despite the lack of RP in most cases, it does have a pretty high level of player cooperation for things like crafting and such. It's normal skill cap for any skill is less than 20 without taking the advancement exam to get to beyond that. Even then, you can't go too much higher than that. And it only takes 100 points to rank the skill. (mind you that's where they kill you with point decrease per training method) They use a progression system somewhat similar to PS but on a way smaller scale and that smaller scale is what forces people work together. If you don't have the necessary AP (what their PP is called. ;) ) to rank up to the level needed to make something, you ask your friend that has already done it to come help.

Also, the way you apply AP helps. All the AP does is allow you to get the the next level to train it, unlock it if you will... Once you get the next level, you just follow what the skills window tells you to train. So for cooking, you have to cook certain types of food (as each type of cooking has it's own rank. i.e. boiling is it's own rank), you have to read a book on the next level, and then you have to eat foods of the relevant cooking type for your level. Once you do that, you rank up with the necessary about of AP and then train for the next level. The Mabinogi system allows for both the theoretical knowledge part, and the practical training part (killing mobs won't cut it for anything but combat training) but uses a way more efficient system.

I have level goals for Kaerli: however, in some cases, they are ABOVE the current maxima (when all's said and done, she's going to end up with with 150-175 in both Sword and Ranged, provided that they go that high ofc).  Magic-wise, I'll probably get her up to 100 BrW and CW and 40-60 in most other Ways before quitting. :P

Keep in mind that some chars are supposed to be greats and it's a real disservice to their players if the mechanics won't let us play to them...:) (ex. Kaerli)

Falcon Avian

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2010, 07:38:32 pm »
I prefer to keep Esorono's stats as close to ic as possible. :3


I have an ego so large it has it's own gravity. So in short, yes, everything does revolve around me.

Akkaido Kivikar

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2010, 07:49:35 pm »
I prefer to play mildly understrength characters, not necessarily the BEST TRAINED, because I don't want to win everytime. And tbh that's what makes an interesting character. People want to RP with someone they feel they can win or lose against, not someone who will beat them everytime because the character is supposedly a "great".

Hrothbert

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2010, 10:15:50 pm »
@ Nivm Your system is what is refferec to as 'botting', Setting up an alt character to solely mine for your main character with a program to make them dig in time, move over dig again, move over. This creates a very lopsided community and is why it is frowned upon.

About the powerlevelesrs some of them have been around so long that there is no changing their mind, and those are 'teaching' new players to do the same. I myself was 'taught' that levelling was the way to go when I fist started nearly 3 years ago, along the way I found it was a lot of time with little reward, My character is strong now Maxed in all stats 1 armour class and that is it he went on hiatus [as did I] He has returned and his goals are to increase in the desired areas as he grows, best way to do that is get the theoretical knowledge trained and as the experiences happen i.e. fighting or mining it grows

Thanks for reading this

Hrothbert

Nivm

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2010, 05:04:11 am »
 I was fairly sure everyone understood how leveling works psychologically. That particular mechanic has been around for about fourteen years now.
 Autoing, botting, macroing, or cheating; if it gets handled by the game, and integrated into the game, it ceases to be a problem. Since the game is causing it to happen, the developers, game masters, and moderators can control it all they want. If a person abuses the system, they can be asked to stop, then the system can be removed from that player instead of banning them.
 Also, I apologize for letting the Skill Atrophy research stall. I read everything on it pretty quick, but now I have to finish writing it up.

kaerli2

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2010, 05:34:08 pm »
I prefer to play mildly understrength characters, not necessarily the BEST TRAINED, because I don't want to win everytime. And tbh that's what makes an interesting character. People want to RP with someone they feel they can win or lose against, not someone who will beat them everytime because the character is supposedly a "great".

It's possible to beat Kaerli; its just very, VERY few people ever figure out how on their own.

Bragan

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Re: Make skill building take less time
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2010, 05:36:31 pm »
I for one hope that hunger, thirst, etc don't get implemented in any way. It's a resource management issue, and I don't see where that is a desirable element in this game. Strategy games, action, etc where resources are limited then it becomes an integral part of the game. But in an open-ended system like this where it's not a problem to get more tria to buy the food you're just slowing players down, with no gain in a feeling of achievement.

But that's not the issue at hand. There are two general ways people level skills:
a) deliberately: I want a higher level in cooking, crafting, or whatever. So I repeat the same action hundreds of times until I gain a level, go to the trainer (who might be 15 minutes of running away), repeat.
b) incidentally: I get theoretical training, and let practice points accrue as I do stuff. I tangle with a mob, get hurt, cast healing spells; I just got a few crystal way, some weapons, armor, maybe repair.

While (b) is the preferred method of being able to level (I would say so), (a) is necessary when the current skill level is not enough to get you the results you want: I can't smelt gold, or the axes I craft are crap. Ideally, past a certain point I no longer need to focus on improving these skills, and let them improve as I do things that require these skills. Again ideally, I should be able to get to this point without too much tedium. (a) is the boring part, we'll all agree. Less so for skills like combat where a single action (say kill a rogue) yields plenty of practice points, plus has the added benefit of possibly generating loot. Crafting on the other hand, takes minutes to produce as many practice points (if that) and either produces nothing valuable (if you recycle the blades for training) or is materially expensive.

I think we'd see more success in making skill leveling less about drudgery. I'd love to see more support for macros, though I definitely wouldn't ask for automation. Doing away with so much mouse-clicking by allowing macros to manipulate containers (putting things in them, taking things out) would be a great idea I think, without increasing the possibility of abuse through automation.