Make skill building take less time

[kaerli2]

...

I think we'd see more success in making skill leveling less about drudgery. I'd love to see more support for macros, though I definitely wouldn't ask for automation. Doing away with so much mouse-clicking by allowing macros to manipulate containers (putting things in them, taking things out) would be a great idea I think, without increasing the possibility of abuse through automation.

Yes!  Having to use mouse gestures for simple, day-to-day inventory/container juggling tasks makes crafting of any sort (or even mere item management) much more tedious than it needs to be.  Being able to use /commands to handle the inventory/containers/... would allow us to set up shortcuts and make much more effective use of our keyboards (maybe even some of those extra buttons mice have been seen sprouting, too...

[Nivm]

 Just why does game controlled automation sound so bad? It would be nearly perfect for the situation; especially because this game does not make money off of people wasting more time.

[Illysia]

Botting can lead to resource imbalances one way or the other. That's why it's pretty much banned in most MMOs. Not to mention that would be one more highly exploitable feature for people to try to hack into to and then would tie up time while the team tries to stop people from exploiting it. It would end up being more hassle than help.

[Nivm]

(Those PMs are going to make these conversations harder, since the questions will be worded so alike, but for a very different purpose.)

 That answers why it might be bad, but not why people think it's so bad. It seems like MMO players immediately dismiss it as deplorable, regardless of any argument in its favor or disfavor.

 Isn't the resource production in Plane Shift already imbalanced? The complaint department says so, even if the complaints might not be verified. Supposedly the cities have numerous workers to supply the market with raw materials and the like, but the NPCs are sparse or non-existent. As a role-playing game, why would the players need to role-play mining and carting ore when there is no story involved? Perhaps not even idle chat?
 I guess it probably would be easy to hack, as is much of the game, but the person would only need or want to when their privileges were revoked in the first place. Doing so would be what actually sets them up for a ban, as abusing the system does not equate it. The system would be in place to take care of the things you character would be doing as part of their normal, boring job(s). The player doesn't get anything out of the time spent repeating the same pattern of clicks a hundred times or more; their role-play can be just as fun if they don't grind for anything.

 I'm obviously partial to this, but I think that's because I can't be totally sure what it's going to do. We can think of reasons and possibilities, but I don't think this has ever been implemented before. A bit of research on eve shows something similar, in the form of built facilities (like those slow war games that have been popping up), but nothing involving the actual character.

[Illysia]

The problem is that it becomes a matter of putting out a fire with a flamethrower instead of a water hose. Twice PS's Economy got shot behind a surge in raw materials coming in and being sold for high prices. (Gold and Plantinum) If it had been even easier to have mined those two ores, the effect would have been even worse.  The problem is not so much  mining resources that way but the after affects of botted mining. Already the inflation is pretty high, and that's just for regular items. It shouldn't cost you more than a circle to get a full meal from NPCs but the prices are outrageous now. That's not to mention the prices on big ticket items like guild houses and GM gear.

The only reason the inflation is so high is because the economy is already flooded with too much tria from mining and if you add in botted mining, it gets way worse. Also, let's not pretend that the majority of bot miners wouldn't be at the nearest gold mine or plat mine should another be placed. Most of the people that would use it would being doing it for money, not because it's a part of a character's story, not because they need it for crafting, just for making more money plain and simple. However, if there was less tria coming in from mining, people wouldn't need to mine so much and most of the tria sinks could be removed.

And on the topic of mining RPs, it was actually kinda fun to RP with other people while mining. Especially when you'd stop and take a break from it to sit and converse with other miners taking a break. Pretty much any task can be turned into a fun RP, even if only a fairly quick one, if the players have enough imagination for it. It's one of the reasons that Illysia's first profession was as a miner, I had a lot of fun in the mines way back when.

I have to say that reducing the amount of tria it takes to train and reducing the amount of training needed per skill level is sounding more and more appealing. If nothing else, I admit that it probably would force the people that do nothing but grind to either RP, sit around, or leave out of boredom. I think now I'd like to see the effects of doing that.

[Nivm]

 In a real economy, adding more wealth (even if it's precious metals) should not increase inflation, since inflation is caused by increasing the representations of the wealth instead of the wealth. War and disasters would decrease the general wealth, and thus the value of money (even though tria are not notes of commerce, and thus aren't even representations), while fruitful labor would increase the general wealth and value of money.
 I see Plane Shift economy (Yliakum settings economy would act normal, kinda) doesn't work that way, but exactly why is it so? (Rhetori▬) From the bugs and suggestions I've seen on the tracker, and conversations here, it doesn't look like the economy conserves anything. Wealth comes into existence and ceases to exist upon the guided and controlled whims of the players, using a number of production sources and sinks. Tria acts just like printed notes would, because they are of infinite source (like a government immediately minting notes in response to any wealth created) from traders who (quickly|instantly) eradicate the goods.
 So the inflation exists because for any wealth created, more tria are ~minted to represent that decreased wealth. The players doing it more will make it worse, but as long as it's designed that way it will be a problem. (Or the reverse, where there are too many sinks and people run out of the inflated money.[sarc] Or worse, complain that they aren't rich enough![/sarc])

 Along with conservation, it would be good for the economy to care about a system of supply and demand; including all it implies.

 Yeah, but the consequence to making leveling easier is that people wont get to use their levels to be elitist (a...bad thing?), and those non-role-play newbs will be more likely to attempt "lording over" others with their perceived power. A direct method will make it suddenly feel like the level caps are far too low.
 I don't know whether it would be a good thing or not. Can you think of any MMO that hasn't relied on hard leveling as part of its foundation?

Edit: Oh, and I'm doing it again; almost 18 hours now.

[Entevir]

I've been thinking. As far as the increase/decrease difficulty problem goes, I think that maybe we are as balanced as the current level of mechanics will allow. Toss it low and we get capped out people left and right and RP becomes even more monotonous then it already was (too many unbeatables), throw it low and people will ceace leveling at all in good part.

The only two roads I see would be to make leveling be quest based or stick with what we got. Go on adventures of increasing difficulty , this would add the need for others skills to support yourself. As well as giving players a chance to go head to head in some quests or work together. But I believe that would be going off-topic.

In short. Messing with balance is tricky.

[Zon]

I have an idea but I do not know if this will work well or not.

Our skills in real life are not, we could say, permanent nor we could learn everything. As I have heard somewhere, you cannot be good in everything. To balance the skills I think skills need to "level down" If not practice on enough. I mean If I am not playing my guitar for 2 years or at a time length like that, I would forget some ways to play it but still having the skills to play the guitar. Another thing to balance skills is the number of skills. I mean, yes, there are Prodigies out there that are pro at everything but not all. So if one learns metallurgy and fishing for example, It need to be split to 50% to 50% of the skills. In other words, they are sharing. Most can't probably understand this. Yes I wrote it in gibberish form. It is kinda hard to explain it but it is in my head

[Candy]

So if one learns metallurgy and fishing for example, It need to be split to 50% to 50% of the skills. In other words, they are sharing. Most can't probably understand this. Yes I wrote it in gibberish form. It is kinda hard to explain it but it is in my head

I think I get that part - like you only have so much capacity to learn a skill. Instead of starting at zero and working your way to 200, you'd get a set number that drains as you go.

Even that would stop after a while, though - talent only gets you so far. Even the most skilled artists I've known still have a lot to learn no matter where they are, and I'm sure the same goes for others with their respective talents. Perhaps you get a skill to ~100 or so after your talent giving you a boost in one skill, and from there on it's leveling the same way everyone else does.

[Rigwyn]

The long time that it takes to train encourages players to grind and train instead of role playing, though I sincerely don't think that was the original intention. I believe what was intended was just the opposite. Difficulty in leveling is there to keep people from getting too powerful too soon. This is well intentioned but clearly does not work. As Sarras pointed out, those with unlimited time will sit there and grind day in and day out. Those who play normally will be impaired. This is ass backwards.

People RP their skills in an attempt to be fair during RP .. so even role players need to grind and train.
To make money you need a skill, skills require leveling/grinding.
To craft you need money and skill... more grinding..

This is very antisocial.

> Player1:  Hello sire, I see you have a hammer in hand. I seek the guidance of a seasoned smith.
> Player2: [ yah click harn ]
> Player1: [ Don't you want to rp with me?]
> Player2: [ hahah rp is for sissies. i need 2 make q300 swords so i can make tria for a guild house]
> Player1: [ A guild house? Ahh.. so you can rp in it?]
> Player2: [ duh u nub its for storing ore and swords. got2go p ]
> Player1: [ Why dont you use punctuation?]
> Player2: [inefficient bi 4 nao]

* Get rid of all the grinding and you will be left with nothing to do but role play.
* Make everyone equal in stats and there is no more need to play stats... ( think about that )
* Let characters choose their own level of proficiency ( some might choose to be less skilled just to be original )

Guess what, with no more competition for stats, skills, and money there is no incentive for players to cheat the system either. People who sit there and level all day will look for another game.  Those who role play will now have unlimited time to do so.

But what about all the precious time that was put into coding the leveling system, economy, etc.. ?
Whats more important? some code or the rp community ?

Is the game about developing characters through role playing or is it about developing characters though leveling? Think about that. There is a huge difference between the two. Older single player RPGs were about developing a character though leveling.

Planeshift is basically a combination of both.. though somehow the game by design encourages leveling and discourages role play. On the other hand, people are told to roleplay and not grind. 

I hope that makes sense.


Good Luck.

[Falcon Avian]

I agree with Rigwyn, we should be able to choose our stats so we can find some people to roleplay with instead of searching everywhere for a person interested in role playing to appear. Although I have a feeling many people are going to be choosing to max out every skill, so there should be some limit to it, like only enough to max one skill and that's it. 

[verden]

The problems with the roleplay community are not problems from the software, removing software features will not fix those problems.

[Rigwyn]

The problem with the game is that it is not desirable to role players.
Part of the problem is the need to train/grind.
Leveling gets in the way of role playing as illustrated in my previous post.

And what if everyone was equally powerful?
Whats so bad about that?

Those who play just to be uber-powerful would get bored and leave. They could either pimp up their stats on ez or find some other game to give them a false sense of self esteem. These are the crumbs of a role playing community. They contribute absolutely nothing to role play. That sounds really harsh but its true.  Sure they may be very nice people but thats beside the point.

This is what would happen. You would be left with roleplayers and duelers. Those who wish to play a less powerful character would do so by choice. Not every roleplayer wishes to be the most powerful, earth shattering being possible. Good role players will be more focused on the story that their character generates and their interaction with other characters. Those who become powerful will be powerful only as a result of the community's consent. They will also lose their power the minute the community decides to stop giving it. In this case power is balanced automatically.

Duelers would still be able to enjoy dueling but without the need to level or earn tria.

[Zon]

The problems with the roleplay community are not problems from the software, removing software features will not fix those problems.

I think it is. The previous comments involves with the software

I agree with Rigwyn, we should be able to choose our stats so we can find some people to roleplay with instead of searching everywhere for a person interested in role playing to appear. Although I have a feeling many people are going to be choosing to max out every skill, so there should be some limit to it, like only enough to max one skill and that's it. 

That is close to what I was saying earlier. People just keeps levelling on their skill. there is no balance in the game. Right now, there is no difference between a miner and a hunter because both could learn them. I see many players who do fighting and also mine so they could earn money to train for their "fighting".

If they do not max their skill, or already has maxed their skills. Guess what they like to do? Kill creatures so they could loot "named" and powerful weapons and sell it so they could be rich.  I have found many people like this, though not including those who are collectors but if you are a collector, why would you just roleplay buying that rare item? Rp how your character owned it or how they deserved it

[verden]

We know the points. We know all the points. It has been brought up countless times before. Despite presentation of ideas, conviction, drama and carefully-worded arguments, the mechanics remain in game. The mechanics have recently received an awful lot of work and development.

Could there be a chance that the concept of roleplaying as defined by the developers is perhaps considerably different than the concept as envisioned by countless members of the roleplay community in the game? Could it be possible that there are plans for roleplaying functions that will rely upon the mechanics being finished and working properly?