Feelings and responsibility

[gonger]

Did you assume that because I voted for Trump and agreed with some of his positions, that therefore I must agree with everything he says?

Did you blindly assume that I fit into some sort of red cap wearing Trump supporter stereotype?

I said from the beginning that the two choices, Trump vs Hillary were bad and that we were left to choose the better of two.

 My conclusion was that Trump was more promising and less problematic than hillary. My decisions were made not so much on personality or public opinion but on what our country needs and what the candidates offered or subscribed to.

Now that you mention it, I do remember you saying something about both Trump and Clinton being bad choices. However, I do not remember you criticizing Trump or disagreeing with him, and a Search in the forums seems to confirm this. (I say "seems", because I have strong doubts about the quality of the search results. So my apologies if I am wrong here. I tried to check.)
But I am really glad to hear that you do not share all of Trump's views, and that you state this clearly. Critical thinking towards our leaders is becoming more important by the hour, it seems. Only yesterday German buyers of Diesel cars got totally f*cked by the unholy union of Government and Car Producers. (Short version: Instead of forcing the cheating Producers to replace hardware parts of the Diesel system, there will only be a software update, which, of course, has a much lesser effect on the Diesel exhausts.)
I cannot eat as much as I want to puke.

Edited to remove a typo.

[Rigwyn]

To be fair, the thing I dislike most about Trump is that he's a horrible speaker. A lot of self inflicted damage could have been avoided if he used a script and stuck to it.. On the other hand, I think the fact that he just spoke his mind drew a lot of people to him.

On the topic of dieselgate, the Irish times had an interesting article:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/german-carmakers-running-out-of-political-cover-on-emissions-scandal-1.3170031?mode=amp

[Volki]

PS : I don't feel like destroying any statement from Volki and Rigwyn that I could destroy. It would take too long and anyway this is dead-end. They can't be convinced of anything, they only rely on persuasion.

In other words, you are unable to do so because I've off-hand recalled information I studied and cited actual laws to back up my arguments and so you feel the need to defend your ego with hollow claims of superiority. No one believes in superiority without demonstration. People are far too egotistical for that.

Funny how LigH segued without concession and Ralas has yet to be seen. No humility.

[Aeghiss]

PS : I don't feel like destroying any statement from Volki and Rigwyn that I could destroy. It would take too long and anyway this is dead-end. They can't be convinced of anything, they only rely on persuasion.

In other words, you are unable to do so because I've off-hand recalled information I studied and cited actual laws to back up my arguments and so you feel the need to defend your ego with hollow claims of superiority.

Ha, certainly not. This was only an explanation as for why I didn't add a new text block to this already long topic : I'm just getting tired of it. But as you insist I'll destroy one to prove that you aren't as flawless as you pretend to be.

Basically, if you match the statistic of someone who would require medical attention prior to serving, is statistically more likely to commit suicide, is more likely to not be able to serve for a period of time due to medical issues, or will be more likely than the average recruit to drop out, you're not worth our military's time. Trans people are a huge risk to take in because, if it's someone who intends to transition while in the military, they will be unable to serve at full capacity for at least one of the four years people normally sign on for. Secondly, but very importantly, they have many times the rate of committing suicide than an average person. Thirdly, there is a large statistical proportion of trans people who have mental illness, much greater than the non-trans population.

Trans people are more likely to commit suicide, you say ? I won't ask for the source, because this sounds obvious. And why so ? Because they are stigmatized. Trans people would have less reasons to if there weren't people like you to tell them they are trash unworthy of what they want to do.
About transition : cisgender people can get ill and be unable to serve at a moment. Don't tell me the military kicks their soldiers out as soon as they catch something worse than a cold, it would be laughable.
About mental illnesses, here I ask you for a source. And given your previous post, you'd better give me one. Secondly, even so, trans people don't all have mental illnesses and there's no reason why a trans should be turned down because others have mental illnesses. Another thing : depending on the context, some among what are considered mental illnesses can prove to be a good thing. For example people with the Asperger's syndrom are typically more intelligent than the average people and totally can achieve great things despite what first appears as a weakness. Ah, also : there are suspicions that Trump suffer from Alzheimer... I think this is more dangerous for the US and its army than two low-rank soldiers suffering from any mental illness.

Finally, something you didn't mention (of course...) : even though being trans surely is more of a weakness than a strength in a discriminating society, trans people are first and foremost individuals. You can't summarize one's personality, qualities and flaws to the fact they be trans. If a tactical genius applies to the army, it would be a shame to turn them down because they are trans.
... But maybe you think trans can't be tactical geniuses because they are all worthless ?

[Rigwyn]

Trans people are more likely to commit suicide, you say ? I won't ask for the source, because this sounds obvious. And why so ? Because they are stigmatized.

Regardless of the reason, if they are statistically at a higher risk to fail in a military scenario, then all the more reason not to put them in that position. Choices like this are probably not made in order to disparage or marginalize people ( That would be a pretty stupid motif ). They're more likely done for more self serving reasons, like protecting other military personnel from the consequences of human failure or reducing medical and legal expenses should a tg candidate decide that they need special accomodations, their nuts lopped off and an endless series of visits with a psychiatrist at the military's expense.

Trans people would have less reasons to if there weren't people like you to tell them they are trash unworthy of what they want to do.

Sadly, that's not going to change. They will always be people with their opinions, advice and criticism.

About transition : cisgender people can get ill and be unable to serve at a moment. Don't tell me the military kicks their soldiers out as soon as they catch something worse than a cold, it would be laughable.

This is more about statistics and probability. Yes, anyone can get sick, but if you need to pick people for mission critical work, you're going to want to find ways to maximize your chances of picking people who will be successful. This is not one of those places where we should be overly concerned about being "equal". We want the best picks possible, not necessarily the most diverse, or the most "fair" or the most "representative" of the population.

Finally, something you didn't mention (of course...) : even though being trans surely is more of a weakness than a strength in a discriminating society, trans people are first and foremost individuals.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the military gives a crap about individuals - especially special snowflakes.

As for trans folks in the military, every individual is different. This one made the Seal team, which is nothing to sneeze at.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Beck

[leonideus]

your right about that, they basically want puppets that move on command rather than people with a will of their own. much easier to do whatever they want that way.

[Aeghiss]

your right about that, they basically want puppets that move on command rather than people with a will of their own. much easier to do whatever they want that way.

That they want people able to follow orders without asking actually means they do care about who people are, you know.

Finally, something you didn't mention (of course...) : even though being trans surely is more of a weakness than a strength in a discriminating society, trans people are first and foremost individuals.

What I meant here was precisely that : recruiting for the army you would ask yourself whether one would be able to follow orders, how fast and how well they will react in case of a danger, etc. And this is about one's quality and flaws, their individuality in short. And if a trans has every quality you seek, it would be nonsensical to turn them down only because they are trans, and instead take someone who isn't as good.
You can tell what you want about trans being globally a lesser choice, trans aren't all the same. Having trans quotas in the army to make sure they have their chances as well as the cis wouldn't make sense, but turning every trans down makes no sense either.

[Ralas]

your right about that, they basically want puppets that move on command rather than people with a will of their own. much easier to do whatever they want that way.

That they want people able to follow orders without asking actually means they do care about who people are, you know.

Everything you've said in these last couple of posts is brilliant and I challenge anyone to bring a SENSIBLE counterargument.

My best friend went to the military.  To the marines.  He went to Iraq and says he "saw some firefights" but that is the extent to which he'll talk about it.  He had some problems when he left, as do most of us.  But he came back with many more.  So it's funny, mental health-wise, that the one condition that will disqualify you is the one that you contract immediately upon serving.

Finally, something you didn't mention (of course...) : even though being trans surely is more of a weakness than a strength in a discriminating society, trans people are first and foremost individuals.

What I meant here was precisely that : recruiting for the army you would ask yourself whether one would be able to follow orders, how fast and how well they will react in case of a danger, etc. And this is about one's quality and flaws, their individuality in short. And if a trans has every quality you seek, it would be nonsensical to turn them down only because they are trans, and instead take someone who isn't as good.
You can tell what you want about trans being globally a lesser choice, trans aren't all the same. Having trans quotas in the army to make sure they have their chances as well as the cis wouldn't make sense, but turning every trans down makes no sense either.

Yeah.  I think anytime you're saying BLANK people should be banned from BLANK thing, you're being discriminatory (that's using the word "discriminatory" with the added nuance that usually comes with the word's definition in the domain-specific context of the thread.  Now you can put away your dictionary and stop  spouting off its contents which are surface-level and only surface-level relevant to this conversation, okay?)

[Volki]

Trans people are more likely to commit suicide, you say ? I won't ask for the source, because this sounds obvious. And why so ? Because they are stigmatized.

No, it's because gender identity disorder is co-morbid to an extremely high degree with other mental illnesses. Co-morbidity is also a reason I'd probably be denied. I was diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder as a child and have ADHD, both of which can be co-morbid with personality disorders.

Trans people would have less reasons to if there weren't people like you to tell them they are trash unworthy of what they want to do.

My favorite YouTuber is trans... Somehow I'm still a transphobe.

About transition : cisgender people can get ill and be unable to serve at a moment. Don't tell me the military kicks their soldiers out as soon as they catch something worse than a cold, it would be laughable.

Have you never heard of an honorable discharge? By the way, you can't catch gender identity disorder. It's something you're born with.

About mental illnesses, here I ask you for a source. And given your previous post, you'd better give me one.

A source for what? Be specific. Considering how you thought you'd destroy me, I'm surprised you'd need one.

Secondly, even so, trans people don't all have mental illnesses and there's no reason why a trans should be turned down because others have mental illnesses.

I just explained why they should be turned down. Firstly, they already have a mental disorder (gender identity disorder). Secondly, it's often co-morbid with other disorders. As in a minority of people with GID don't have any other disorders. That's why they are turned down and should be barred in my opinion. What matters is statistics. Recruiting shouldn't waste time on unlikely candidates.

Another thing : depending on the context, some among what are considered mental illnesses can prove to be a good thing. For example people with the Asperger's syndrom are typically more intelligent than the average people and totally can achieve great things despite what first appears as a weakness.

Key word: "can". I wouldn't waste my time with someone who could prove to be exceptional. Also, Asperger's can give someone more intelligence in some areas, but it always necessitates lack of intelligence in important areas.

trans people are first and foremost individuals. You can't summarize one's personality, qualities and flaws to the fact they be trans. If a tactical genius applies to the army, it would be a shame to turn them down because they are trans.

The military does not hire people based on them being individuals. It hires based on who would be best for the job according to statistical projections. No one is born a tactical genius, either. You are trained to become one if your test results are that you could become a tactical genius. One diamond in the rough isn't worth the effort.

... But maybe you think trans can't be tactical geniuses because they are all worthless ?

There's an entirely different group of people who I consider to be worthless, and it's not transgender people. It's people who make no effort to educate themselves and allow their minds to be filled with feel-good nonsense. People who protect their unquestioned ideas by accusing anyone who dares question them of being a liar, a bigot, a sociopath, and so on.

[LigH]

How much do they fear science that they feel an urge to restrict it?

[Volki]

this thread needs to die. it's just a German complaining about another country's politics at this point.

[MishkaL1138]

this thread needs to die. it's just a German complaining about another country's politics at this point.

^

[gonger]

How much do they fear science that they feel an urge to restrict it?

Stupid people fear what they do not understand.
@Volki: At least two Germans.

[Volki]

Hence my post. Germans have a pathological desire to control everything, including other nations. You try to force your little theories on free nations when you don't understand the different context of another country. The nice thing is that all you're going to accomplish here is annoying people.

[gonger]

Hence my post. Germans have a pathological desire to control everything, including other nations. You try to force your little theories on free nations when you don't understand the different context of another country. The nice thing is that all you're going to accomplish here is annoying people.

Free as in free to use the words you consider appropriate?
I am not trying to control anything, I am criticizing the behaviour of the US President, this time his constant denial of facts: If these words / phrases do no longer appear in reports, the facts behind are no longer there.
Orwellian indeed, this linguistic manipulation, aka censorship. Or just different context of another country...