Some clearing up.

[paxx]

Well it won\'t be.
 
I would suggest you continue playing tibia, or any number of the many games that allow pking, this game won\'t have it. It is not one person (me) saying it, it is to my knowledge all the Dev\'s, and at least all the Dev\'s in decision making positions. For Pk to be included in this game at any time prior to production, there eather would have to be a total change of the dev team, or an incredable system in use, that is so great it gets the Dev\'s to change their position and  we might emulate it to some degree cause it knocked our socks off. and i do not see eather happening.

[Xadoo]

Well someone suggested there would be limited PK, so one PK a day or something. If you broke that rule one time you were gettin a BIG, a VERY BIG penalty. Like banning or so.

Well a defensive PK could be done. But it would be a heck of a PK then... if every guy killed another guy a day... no it wouldnt work................

But PvP on the street should be done, and i hope there are good rules for Clanwar PvP. Why cant one be a Assasin for Hire, to be hired for a guild who want someone in the other guild dead? Then you dont need to be in some guild but could be a Assasin For Hire. Thatll be fun, it would be a bigger challenge for the other guild to get, and the guild wars would be mucho biggo.

[Abemore]

paxx, you are a genius.  You approach this issue with a clear and analytical mind.

I believe the question of player killing (and if people will abuse it) is philosophical in nature.  People don\'t seem to see it from a global perspective as they should.  They are too busy imagining their fantasy game where they can indulge their sick desires to kill everyone around them.  That is, to be A GOD.  Many single player games allow you this luxury, and I imagine some have grown used to it and would like to experience the same thing in a MMO environment.

The trouble is, nobody wants to be the little guy.  Everyone wants to be the one with the power, not the one without.

So, it becomes a quest to quickly increase the power/experience/stats of your character in order to exact your revenge.

This negates the purpose of a Role Playing Game.  And it becomes a deathmatch.

In a typical role playing game, you, your character is the hero.  And the hero is never easily killed.  
In a MMORPG, EVERY player character is the hero (or villain, or whatever)--even the newbie.  And none of these heros or villains should be easily killed.  They are the main characters of the story, and their battles are meant to last a long time.

They are clever and quick, can detect assassination attempts, and can never be killed by a single blow.  They can catch the arm of a thief before she makes away with their loot.  If a battle cannot be won, they can always run.

So, thieves and assassins are best focusing their efforts on NPC\'s as player characters are a fools target.

Everyone is the main character of this story, so everyone must survive till the end.  PKing is removed so this is possible.  (NOTE: there is still death from mobs, but as in every game, we ignore this and pretend the hero character never dies. (IE. we pretend he never dies by bringing him back to life))--i may need to think more on this point...

I also believe the greater the amount of player interaction, the more interesting a MMO game becomes.  So, keeping player interaction high is important for a good MMO game.  Pking is interacting, yet it still needs to be perfected before it can be used properly.

Paxx, I hold you among the highest of the devs.  

[Xalthar]

I agree with you completely, abemore... And just to give an example of how wrong Pking can get.. I would suggest refering to any of the many DAoC forums around their sites, and look at the EXTREMELY high amount of complaints about lvl 50 characters hiding in shadows and killing anyone that comes near.. even low lvl newbies who have just bought the game... I can\'t remember how many times I\'ve seen/heard and talked to some of them quitting the game because of some powermad fool trying to feel omnipotent by killing a n00b in one hit.. If pking runs amok like in DAoC it can ruin a game for everyone...

[paxx]

Well, thank you for the nice comments. But in reality there are a great number of the devs that I feel are much more deserving of those words then I.

But I must say that my IQ does not reach the MENSA requirements. Although I take the compliment gladly :-)

The issue with banning and such?in a perfectly made game it would be imposable for a player to do something worthy of banning.  

But I must say that we are not enlightened enough to figure out how to make a game that gives everyone all the freedom they want and yet allows everyone to have a generally good time. It has something to do with that saying ?you can?t please everyone all of the time? however we are striving for a good game.

If after Planeshift is mostly done and stable, there is a group that wants to make a PvP PK game based on the mmorpg model, I?d be happy to assist in the same fashion I have with this game. But people really have to think about the bigger picture when making these things.

If we had followed my original concept that 10-15 newbies would almost always be able to take down the best warrior type in the game, meaning there is not that much progression in skills. This concept would be very usefull in a full on PK/PvP environment, players rely on tactics and practice to overcome their enemies. In this game the character not the player takes a central role in combat.

If this was not the way it was then the combat system and even the communication models we have planned would be different.

[Abemore]

I remember speaking to you once before, paxx, in the IRC dev channel, but I had no idea you were so level-headed.  It came as a bit of a surprise.  Of course, the rest of the dev team seems to be extremely intelligent as well... two of my favorites are Venge and acraig.

So, you 3 have now become (whether you like it or not) my favorite devs  

...which means nothing

I remember taking a sample test on the MENSA website and reading that I had a good chance of passing the actual test.  I believe your IQ is plenty high, you just need to be well studied in IQ test question format.  Emode.com also has an IQ test, but the questions are much simpler than the MENSA version.

Well, this has been a model thread.  A lot of excellent points have been made within it, and it has stayed almost entirely on topic (except for this post).  

I personally believe that the things said here could sway the opinions of [at least one or two of] the most diehard pro-pk lobbyists.

[sashok]

I don\'t understand what the big fuss is about.  
You are absolutely right, if a level 10 attacks level 1 it is definately not fair, but it\'s no reason to baan pking.

The simplest solution to this is to only allow pking for same levels, or even better there should be a way to calculate persons full strength and abilities(magic, agility, strength, intel) and create some sort of measure system, it\'s up to you devs and allow only those people to kill each other.  This seems totaly fair to me, at least the pker won\'t have an easy time killing his target and it will be a fair fight, and next time he will know better.
Ofcourse one could have better armor or weapons, or there could be a group of the same levels attacking a single person, but that\'s the whole idea of freaking fun.  Otherwise it\'s like Eq, you just walk around, doing whatever you want, offending whoever you want, and really not living in the real virtual world of mmorpg.

as for banning people.  daamn, just cancel their nicknames(accounts) without warning them first, because they could easily transfer their funds and items to their friends.  So under this fear, high levels will not pk anyone for fun.

does this make any sense?

[shangralah]

make lvl 1-5 or 1-10 not atackable!

[Drilixer]

hehe - one problem with that idea -> there are no levels in Planeshift

[sashok]

well i proposed something different didn\'t you read? I only used the level thing as an example

If the devs create some sort of round leveling system just for the sake of pking.  
it\'s comparing stregngth, if the strength is too far apart than automatically not allowed. then go onto agility, that could be rouned off depending how much the strength is apart, then go onto the intel, same thing there, finally check if the players possess any magic abilities, if one doesn\'t have, not allowed, else compare somewhere in between, if their abilities power is about the same, allow the freaking pk.
then, it\'s not clear who\'ll pk who, right?

[shangralah]

i was just saying ....... wont they have lvls at some point?

[sashok]

but that\'s the thing, what if somebody just turns lvl 11 and gets his ass whooped by level 20?
did you think about that?
or lets say that they are both level 20, but one has a crazy spell that\'s way stronger than anything than the other one has. That wouldn\'t be fair.
So what do you think of my way though?
I mean, everyone could fight, starting from the beginning, but only fight alike.

[shangralah]

bah well ....... it all cant be fair bah bah bah

[Abemore]

so... stupid.

only a very small percentage of everyone playing the game would have skill equal to yours.  There is already PvP dueling.  What you want is the ability to sneak up on someone and kill them.  Thats frickin idiotic.  

Can you imagine for a moment, being deep in a dungeon, minding your own business, killing zombies for exp.  The zombies rush you, but you fight them off just in time to save your life... then some asshole comes up behind u and pk\'s your ass.  You lose all your items. THE END.

just as a general rule, if you\'re a kid, your opinion probably isn\'t good.

[sashok]

well, I\'m just trying to find some new solutions.  And maybe I didn\'t claryfy what I proposed, but basically my idea was some rounded off combination of everything about a  player and put into a number between 1-20.
So this creates a big chance of meeting somebody like that.

Your comment about the cave and zombies sounds horrifying, but it doesn\'t convince me pking is bad.  You just brought one of the worst scenarios.  You seem to believe that everyone is an ass**** and will try to kill you.  I, having some moral values, wouldn\'t kill a person\'s efforts in the game with such a sucker punch.  Although it could happen, out of coincidence, you never know.