Author Topic: Eugenics  (Read 1349 times)

cdmoreland

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2014, 07:32:21 pm »
Maybe portals will open up on Earth to take us into the other realms. \\o//

Illysia

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2014, 08:09:28 pm »
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It would take technology that we currently do not have.

Every part of this thread involves technology we don't have. The whole point is that we are handwaving that part to consider what would happen if we did have different technologies and understanding. ;)

I don't like the idea of generation ships though. Seems to much like sending a fishbowl into space and hoping it works. Reminds me of slightly more disturbing visions of space travel where everything is so tightly regulated that one misstep can get you killed.

Rigwyn

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2014, 08:51:39 pm »

On the other hand, maybe a far more advanced disease would evolve and do it's thing. With people dying of starvation, immune systems run down from malnutrition, loads of people and swift transportation, the evolution of the right virus might be akin to throwing a match in a hay stack.


Illysia

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2014, 09:14:06 pm »
Possibly. I just don't like the idea of traveling through space in a fragile air bubble for long periods of time.

CadRipper

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2014, 01:32:20 pm »
In conclusion it seems that, however we consider this to evolve, we need those messy humans to get more reasonable and empathic.

Let's put this as a safety requirement!  \\o//

On the other hand, maybe a far more advanced disease would evolve and do it's thing. With people dying of starvation, immune systems run down from malnutrition, loads of people and swift transportation, the evolution of the right virus might be akin to throwing a match in a hay stack.

If ageing is also "cured" - not necessarily what was first suggested in this thread:
Or who knows, people might get so bored, so emboldened, so weakened ... so impacted by their accumulated experience that they would end up doing silly things. It would be interesting to see how a human mind can sustain a lifetime of several centuries.

Jawir

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2014, 03:54:46 pm »
In my opinion, even with a "perfect" dna, we will never be able to live for centuries and this for a reason: each time a chromosome replicates the telomeres get shortened, so the replication process doesn't produce a perfect copy of the starting chromosome. With years of chromosome replication you'll end with telomeres so short that replication is no more possible and that is... well... the end!  :P

Even not keeping into account this process you should think that our immune system is more related to environmental factors than genetics: the more you are exposed to viruses the stronger your immune system will be. So a perfect dna doesn't imply automatically no diseases.

But again, even not keeping into account this other issue, and thinking that a perfect dna leads to a strong immune system you have to think that all these "human improvements" don't happen instantly. Moreover you live in a world where everything point toward an equilibrium so the more evolved humans will be and the more the surrounding nature will evolve. This imply that human evolution means viruses evolution: yes, mother nature doesn't watch us while remaining idle!  :P
It's like an eternal arm wrestling with viruses: at some point you believe to be winning and all of a sudden the situation seems in favor to viruses.

And another thought:will eugenics be available to all people equally? Or some (rich) category will benefits and some other not? Will this lead to wars? If so, you have another factor to prevent overpopulation.

Rigwyn

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2014, 04:17:24 pm »
I'll just slip this in here:

http://www.ted.com/talks/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_aging?language=en

This video is about addressing the issue of ageing as if it was curable. I thought it was rather interesting.


CadRipper

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2014, 06:01:24 pm »
In my opinion, even with a "perfect" dna, we will never be able to live for centuries and this for a reason: each time a chromosome replicates the telomeres get shortened, so the replication process doesn't produce a perfect copy of the starting chromosome. With years of chromosome replication you'll end with telomeres so short that replication is no more possible and that is... well... the end!  :P

Some species don't have this problem, I'm pretty sure it can be re-engineered at some point. There are quite a few other issues as well, it's apparently addressed in Rigwyn's video (I'll watch it tomorrow, looks interesting). That should be the "easy" part. It's the starting point of this thread, really, extrapolated beyond genetic disorders - ageing as a genetic disorder is probably far stretched ;)

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Even not keeping into account this process you should think that our immune system is more related to environmental factors than genetics: the more you are exposed to viruses the stronger your immune system will be. So a perfect dna doesn't imply automatically no diseases.

It can be taught with vaccines.

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But again, even not keeping into account this other issue, and thinking that a perfect dna leads to a strong immune system you have to think that all these "human improvements" don't happen instantly. Moreover you live in a world where everything point toward an equilibrium so the more evolved humans will be and the more the surrounding nature will evolve. This imply that human evolution means viruses evolution: yes, mother nature doesn't watch us while remaining idle!  :P
It's like an eternal arm wrestling with viruses: at some point you believe to be winning and all of a sudden the situation seems in favor to viruses.

Viruses, bacteria, fungi, and free mutations for everyone, and a lot of people everywhere for them to feed, that's probably a tricky part indeed...

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And another thought:will eugenics be available to all people equally? Or some (rich) category will benefits and some other not? Will this lead to wars? If so, you have another factor to prevent overpopulation.
Well, we went through that earlier, there's a moral problem attached for sure!


... and I'm surprised nobody mentioned this as another possible way to enhance the gene pool  :innocent:

Aramara Meibi

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CadRipper

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2014, 11:36:05 am »
http://www.spiritscienceandmetaphysics.com/new-study-reveals-that-you-can-upgrade-your-genes/

Not sure what to make of this. To each their own beliefs until proven otherwise I suppose?

Jon Kabat-Zinn had already mentioned during the seminar he gave at Google a few years ago, that after several weeks of meditation, "people could show" alterations in the brain from MRI's, mainly a change in "density". I'm don't have the necessary background to interpret this and decide whether it's marketing, personal belief from people practicing full awareness or actual scientific evidence.

In the text of this link, aren't statements like "New Study Reveals How You Can Upgrade Your Genes!" and "After eight hours of mindfulness practice, the meditators showed a range of genetic and molecular differences, including altered levels of gene-regulating machinery and reduced levels of pro-inflammatory genes" revealing that the author wasn't too sure what they were talking about and just wanted to get a shocking title? ;)

It seems to be a common gene expression regulation, nothing as fancy as a genetic mutation, but I could be wrong.

Aramara Meibi

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2014, 11:57:53 am »
of course the headline was sensationalized. it's on the internet.
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CadRipper

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2014, 12:30:23 pm »
Ah but the Internet also allows us to find the paper behind the sensational headlines :)

Hum, it looks more serious *gawks at the tables and beautiful graphs*

"articipants  completed  the  Trier  Social  Stress  Test  (Kirschbaum  et  al.,  1993)  to  induce  acute  psychological  stress. Briefly,  this  standardized  laboratory  stressor  consisted  of  a 5  min  impromptu  speech  on  a  given  topic  followed  by  5  min  of mental  arithmetic,  performed  standing  in  front  of  a  microphone  before  a  panel  of  two  (one  male,  one  female)  judges and  a  video  camera."

That ought to do it :D

More seriously, it is quite interesting and, well, tempting. That should be the "soft" version of the gene switching, surely offering less possibilities but yet a safer practice we should acquire to reduce the common problems.

Aramara Meibi

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2014, 11:18:08 am »
this might be of some interest to this conversation:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/improving_humanperformance.pdf
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Donari Tyndale

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2014, 07:16:34 pm »
I think eugenics is a stupid idea. As a species, non favorable genetic mutations are a dead end anyway. Let us suppose we could objectively quantify a gene as good or bad and select only for the good genes by whatever means are employed. In that case, we'd not do anything else as nature does anyway without our doing, so eugenics from a biological point of view is pretty moot.

Another, far more concrete problem with eugenics is that genetic traits are (most of the time) neither good nor bad. Any genetic trait with significant prevalence in the population is there for some reason, and removing that trait drains a much needed genetic diversity. A famous example for such a trait would be sickle cell anemia, which actually infers resistance to malaria. Where is the gene most prevalent? In tropical Africa. Bad traits are always self limiting, and only traits that offer some advantage get selected. Nature does that without our interference, and we can only cause harm by trying to meddling with diversity.

Most species that had their genetic diversity reduced too strongly are now extinct or are having serious disease problems.

Now, one needs to differ. Yes, there are traits that cause an undue burden on families, such as Down's. Disease burden is a quantifiable parameter, and I think that every family should be able to decide whether or not to endure such an undue burden.

The governments however also need to regulate genetic screenings in order to prevent selective abortions based on hair colour/sex etc. Only traits that cause a certain threshold of burden should be screened for.

Another point that can be raised is the healthcare costs associated to genetic diseases such as Down's. Yes, they cause costs. And in comparison to obesity/smoking related costs, they are wholly insignificant. The loss of perceived freedom and associated mental problem costs (long term stress is a real killer) with a regulation of such traits would probably topple the cost of healthcare for the traits themselves.

And besides, ultimately any non violent death could be prevented with the right trait. But then again, sometimes traits are sometimes exclusive, interfering with each other or whatnot. We could probably engineer, after sufficient deliberation, a genetic code for the human being that serves as a background for a healthy and long life. Selecting for that model would however be contrary to natural selection, as our genetic diversity would crumble and destroy our species.

Also, we got an entirely different approach in dealing with diseases. It's called medicine. In a way, drugs are an extension of our genetic code and offer a far more elegant and easy way in dealing with faulty genetic traits. I believe that medical and scientific progress will, as it has done in the last centuries, offer a far bigger advantage to human health (as a species as well) than any eugenics program ever could.


« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 07:18:38 pm by Donari Tyndale »