Real life - messing around with magick

[Mairon]

By predetermined, I mean that our choices and reasons for choosing are just the results or consequences of prior actions and events.

Not every time though. Sometimes you are just left wondering, where did an idea come from. However, I would agree to a point that every idea had existed somewhere in the past. Or rather that they all exist simultaneously.

Free will is a myth and a lie, don't believe in it or you are lost.

Ayyyyy, BF confirmed!

[Can-ned Food]

It's all a matter of the mechanism, the method of action.  You guys are half-way there, but so are most people.

[Rigwyn]

 

It's all a matter of the mechanism, the method of action.  You guys are half-way there, but so are most people.

Feel free to elaborate, Can-ned.


From a purely physical point of view, a thought, as I understand, is the result of electrical/chemical neural activity and that activity is part of a longer chain reaction. From this point of view free will and choice are not what they appear to be but rather the result of prior chemical changes. We perform an action or have a thought unwittingly and then claim credit for it.

That's all fine and dandy but chain reactions like that have a starting point and starting point has to come from somewhere. It could be that order and determinism are temporary....

Some folks cry God at this point and abandon the problem altogether but even if you make that argument it bites you in the ass again when you ask what made this god.

I find the idea a chaos appealing even though it doesn't give any insight into an orign.

[Volki]

Summa Theologiae.

The determinism you're talking about is a little different from free will. Eventually you come to the point that there must be a first cause with no cause: "God." If you don't believe in God, you should reconsider this approach.

[Dilihin]

Free will is a myth and a lie, don't believe in it or you are lost.

Ayyyyy, BF confirmed!

wow, i never realised you were so good RPer that you  simply can't tell the difference between the player and the character. Way to go Mairon!

Now thought, that wasn't intended to be that serious argument, more like, a little sarcastic, srry about that.

[Rigwyn]

Summa Theologiae.

The determinism you're talking about is a little different from free will. Eventually you come to the point that there must be a first cause with no cause: "God." If you don't believe in God, you should reconsider this approach.

Thats a stretch. If there was a prime mover of some sort, then who's to say it was your god or that it still exists for that matter? I can just as easily create a character and claim that it is the origin of everything.

If we are going to argue that God always was, then it would make more sense to just argue that the universe has always existed instead.

We have better reason to argue that God is a character that some human rolled and that the universe has always been there.

[Volki]

[...] it is impossible that something be mover and moved in the same respect and at the same time, i.e., that it move itself. Therefore, it is necessary that everything that is moved be moved by another. So, if that by which it is moved is itself also moved, it is necessary that it be moved by another, and that one by still another. But we may not proceed thus to infinity, because there would then be no primary mover, and consequently no other movers, because intermediate movers move only through the fact that they are moved by a primary mover, as the stick moves only because it is moved by the hand. Thus, we necessarily arrive at some primary mover, which is moved by nothing; and everyone understands this primary mover to be God.

[...] if there were no first in a series of efficient causes, there would be neither a last nor any intermediate causes. But if we proceed to infinity in efficient causes, there will be no first efficient cause, and thus there will be no intermediate efficient causes nor any last effect, which is plainly false. Therefore, it is necessary to posit some first efficient cause, which everyone calls God.

http://www.pitt.edu/~gmas/1080/Q2A1.htm

I'm trying to say that your concept of determinism brings up some issues. Aquinas had similar thoughts and came to the conclusion that there must be a God. Whether or not that God still exists or is your god is irrelevent.

Whether or not it's even a god at all is irrelevant. You can be an atheist and find yourself saying something just as problematic, such as, "There was a Big Bang." Either way, you have reasoned yourself into a logical pit.

[Mairon]

wow, i never realised you were so good RPer that you  simply can't tell the difference between the player and the character. Way to go Mairon!

You don't even have to be good at RPing to realise that player's personality DOES influence his chars. But thanks for the compliment, I appreciate it.

Now thought, that wasn't intended to be that serious argument, more like, a little sarcastic, srry about that.

Even if it wasn't, you could have elaborated on that, like Rigwyn did.

Thats a stretch. If there was a prime mover of some sort, then who's to say it was your god or that it still exists for that matter?

I am the Prime Mover. I created God. The Universe exists because of Me.
However, that's true for all of you as well.
There is no god but man.

[netforce10]

Well if posited that everything must come from something then the only possibility is that there is a loop. Therefore the 'universe' would always be and always was, no beginning no end.

Personally however I won't deny the possibility that something can simply exist without comming from something however. I do however belief that everything that happens is determined by what has happened, my main reason is that I belief(without any good reason) there's nothing purely 'arbitrary'/'random'.

[Rigwyn]

I'm not a fan of the God solution since it just moves the problem from one place to another.. You end up with a deterministic universe and an unexplainable god. I do agree though with shifting towards inductive reasoning. The deterministic universe still causes problems for religious folks even if you make God the prime mover.

As for loops and randomness, chaos theory starts to get interesting here.

I'm more inclined to leave the question of origin an unknown than to plug it up with a religious diety.

[MishkaL1138]

[Can-ned Food]

There is no god but man.

I think you meant to say

There is no god but man, and Allah is their prophet.

Yikes, but this has taken a turn for the inane.

Do you believe in a transcendental deity?  Better to ask whether any paramecia believe in you — or whether they can even do so.

[Mairon]

No, I did not mean to say that. Do I look like Mohammad?
In fact, I think only Rigwyn can have a slightest clue where this quote originates from.

As for paramecia, I doubt they can even realize what does it mean to "believe".
Don't get me wrong, humans are not omnipotent, they are just dumbed down by various means.

[Geoni]

I don't believe in magic but the spirit world, divination, things like that. I'm not entirely close-minded to it. I'm pretty skeptical but I've been spooked before. And had an accurate reading from somebody who practices Vodun.

[Rigwyn]

 I would have interpreted Marion's quote as "man invented the concept of a god" or perhaps "there is no god, you're the captain of your own ship". I didn't think he was implying that man is the over powered God of human lore.

As for Geoni's point, I tend to agree. I have no evidence of gods or spirits. Magick however is not the kind of magic that Hollywood portrays. It's simply a means of manifesting your will.

While some folks explain magick in terms of energy or spirits, some also explain it in terms of psychology. Regardless of the explanation used it either works or it doesnt. What works is kept, what doesn't is discarded.