All out PvP

[Kiva]

This is the first time I start a thread in this part of the forum, and it probably will be the only one I\'ll start for quite a while since this is ultimately one of the most extreme kinds of PvP you can encounter.

I\'m going to make this as simple as possible, while still explaining what it is all about, so most people understand what is I mean.

If there is something you don\'t understand, or don\'t like, feel free to ask about it or tell why you don\'t like it however if you reply with the statement \"this sux\", then you\'re an idiot and I\'ll be more than happy to tell you that. Try and keep flaming in the guild forum so Aendar can delete it for you.

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The idea of it all is pretty simple actually. Live and let live, or kill and get killed. To be more specific. You can attack anyone, anywhere without any pre-programmed punishment what-so-ever. This does not mean, however, that someone will not come and kill you for killing him. That\'s his choice.

So, by this I mean to suggest open PvP\'ing anywhere. Yet, if a city should have rules about no fighting, there shouldn\'t be guards storming in as soon as you pull your sword. The only reason why guards should appear is a) they were nearby and saw the fight or b) someone shouted \"Guards!\" If none of the above happens, noone stops two or more people from killing eachother in the streets.

Now, this can all be abused by griefers and highlevels, and we need some security so the lower end of the players don\'t get mercilessly slaughtered for nothing at all. First of all, every PK and PK attempt a player has made is to be logged in a seperate file for each character, stating agressor and time as well as who dies. And by PK attempt, I mean every unprovoked offensive action against someone else. So if you attack someone, you are the agressor and you get logged for the attack. If you kill someone who started out with attacking you, you get logged for the kill however since he is the agressor, that can be used as a counter-argument if you should ever get charged for anything.

Another thing that is to be implemented is the Death Council and Permanent death request system. This quite simply means that if you kill someone who really deserves to die for good, you can submit a permanent death request on him accompanied with a reason of why he must die, and his character will be rendered useless until the Death Council (a group of volountary people - plot designers, devs, GMs, players with high knowledge of ingame issues) either approves or denies the request. Should this feature be abused in such a way as that you kill someone and makes his character useless simply for annoying the person, your character (which most likely is of equal strength or better) will recieve a 30+ day ban, or in worse cases an account ban.

The Death Council will also be those in control of which of the \"permanently\" dead characters can and will be revived. For instance if a good priest of the holy order of goodness is killed for a worthy cause, a group of priests might contact the DC and request him to be resurrected. Not because the person who owns the character wants to play him again, but because there is a story behind the resurrection. This is where the plot designer\'s oppinion really kicks in as he has to decide whether it is a good or a bad idea to let the person come back to life, and whether he can contribute to the plot of the game in some way or another. If this feature is abused heavily by annoying people who just want to play their dead characters, they will simply be ignored forever, and in worse cases they might recieve a ban in some way.

Another thing this system allows is a way to perform guild wars. For example, a guild settles on an area and puts up signs saying this area is restricted, and anyone who enters will be killed. If someone enters and dies, he has been warned. Now, a diffrent guild wants the area and they engage in an all-out guild war, then all PK logging between the two guilds is disabled, and the guild war starts as soon as one guild challenges the other, and lasts for at least 24 hours to prevent abusal. One guild must still withdraw from the war, however, and suffer the penalty, whatever this might be.


Pros about this system:

* Effective, and it allows everyone to kill eachother, it allows pickpocketing (pp\'ing is an aggressive PK act, by the way), it allows duels and it allows everything else in the PK system.
* It provides a good way of dealing with those who constantly abuse the fact that you can do anything - permanent death.
* If some person goes rampage in a newbie area, it will be easy to contact a GM or highlevel player who can get rid of the insane player, and submit a permanent death request. The system is not for abusal, it\'s to allow people to do anything.
* It lets players who have a great influence on the community (evil as well as good) be resurrected and possibly play as a part of the ingame plot, or just take part of a side quest in some way or another.
* It allows the players who have the power to set the rules. They are no longer hardcoded into the game.
* Whole areas or regions can be controlled by powerful players or guilds, where they set the rules. If someone kills them, they get to make the new rules.

Cons about this system:

* A player can ruin newbies\' playing experience, however he also faces the risk of losing his character for good. That is often enough to make people think twice before going on a killing streak.
* The permanent death request can be used to prevent some people from playing their characters while the request is pending. However this can result in a 30+ day ban if abused.

Additional features that go under the same thing as this:

* City tax / Protection money
If you don\'t pay, the guards wont help you if you get attacked. Tough luck.

If both people have paid, the guards kill the agressor (if the attacked person hasn\'t responded to the attacks).
If both are attacking eachother, they both get killed by the guards. Simple as that.

* Modified NPC behaviour (idea by Axsyrus)
If an NPC sees you kill someone, they might report it to the city guards, or let the word flow around in the city, meaning NPCs might be unfriendly or scared of you, maybe they wont sell you items or in worst cases they might expell you from the city.

* \"Who killed me?\"
If - when you get killed - you don\'t have your killer\'s name plastered all over the screen, you might not remember who the person is. This adds to the realism of an ingame murder. However, if you do remember who killed you, you have but another reason to kill him/her.


Now, if you feel like adding anything to the idea, please say so. Do not simply say it\'s a bad idea because you can\'t do this or you can\'t do this, or it\'s a bad idea because you can do this or that. Like I said in the beginning of the post, if you can\'t give a valid argument for your thoughts, I am rightfully entitled to call you an idiot.

Think about stuff before you post, and think about what you write. Re-read it yourself after you\'ve posted. It prevents others from misunderstanding and becoming angry at you.

[SaintNuclear]

Besides the pickpocketing part (shouldn\'t be allowed), these ideas are pretty much ok. But what is done with the aggressors? Sure, it\'s logged, and if there are guards around they might interfere. But after the fight is over, what happens? You don\'t mean that permanent death will be the solution to every time someone kills someone else, right?

This could be a good solution to it (it\'s not instead of permanent death):

The PK log could be used to give rating to aggressors. If you start fights against other characters all the time, your aggressor rating will go up. It will be viewable to other characters in one way or another (not a bar that shows percentage of aggrressiveness, these things are stupid).
Naturally, some people will stay far from such characters, won\'t trade with them, etc, and other characters will do the exact opposite.
Cities could restrict access to aggressive characters of above certain levels.


About the permanent death: Do you mean it as just an IC name for character-ban, or that the character will be stuck in the death realms without going back to Yliakum?
Either way, I think that it\'ll be better if the character that was petitioned against won\'t be stuck in the death realms until the council decides what to do with him, unless they\'re working 24/7.
Being stuck like that will be really annoying, and not in a good PRish way.
The player will be notified when his character gets petitioned for permanent death and will be able to defend himself by telling the council his pov. It\'s good because just having the petitioner\'s pov could be misleading (even with the logs).
If the council decides that even after he gave his pov he still deserves permanent death, tough luck.

Also, maybe in some cases the council won\'t think that the character deserves permanent death, but deserves some sort of a punishment. In wich case the character will stay in the death realm for longer than normal.

[snow_RAveN]

Gronomist I love YOU

i like the idea on how open PVP can help the economy ! Also you might want to add Safe High ways which require a small fee to use

but no one likes wakeing up to find he has had his throat slit BUT that means being evil makes it more fun ! Haveing to hide your charaters identy as a No good doer form his would be killers more Role play !

[Kiva]

Originally posted by SaintNuclear
But what is done with the aggressors? Sure, it\'s logged, and if there are guards around they might interfere. But after the fight is over, what happens? You don\'t mean that permanent death will be the solution to every time someone kills someone else, right?

You only permanently kill someone if you decide to send a request to the Death Council. Everyone else just dies and gets to go through the death realm as usual.

The PK log could be used to give rating to aggressors. If you start fights against other characters all the time, your aggressor rating will go up. It will be viewable to other characters in one way or another (not a bar that shows percentage of aggrressiveness, these things are stupid).
Naturally, some people will stay far from such characters, won\'t trade with them, etc, and other characters will do the exact opposite.
Cities could restrict access to aggressive characters of above certain levels.

So by this, you\'re suggesting that all NPCs know what\'s going on everywhere in the world? Bad idea, and bad roleplay. Very bad. The only reason why you know something is if you\'ve seen it yourself, or if someone has told you about it. An aggressiveness bar isn\'t a way to tell others you\'re bad. They should hear about you from friends/strangers, and fear you. There is no other way.

About the permanent death: Do you mean it as just an IC name for character-ban, or that the character will be stuck in the death realms without going back to Yliakum?

It is the loss of ability to play your character. So yes, it\'s a character ban.

Either way, I think that it\'ll be better if the character that was petitioned against won\'t be stuck in the death realms until the council decides what to do with him, unless they\'re working 24/7.
Being stuck like that will be really annoying, and not in a good PRish way.
The player will be notified when his character gets petitioned for permanent death and will be able to defend himself by telling the council his pov. It\'s good because just having the petitioner\'s pov could be misleading (even with the logs).

If you die, you\'re dead. You don\'t get to tell god that you think it\'s unfair you died, and then get resurrected because of that. You\'re just dead, end of story. If the Death Council approves the death of your character, there\'s nothing you can do. It\'s dead. It is as simple as that. You don\'t get to play so you can secretly transfer all of your items to a diffrent account and keep playing. That defeats the purpose of a permanent kill anyway, as the loss will only be your character, not your items.

Also, maybe in some cases the council won\'t think that the character deserves permanent death, but deserves some sort of a punishment. In wich case the character will stay in the death realm for longer than normal.

That\'s not for the council to decide. They chose if a character must live or must die. Nothing else. It\'s the GMs task to deal with other punishments of characters.

It\'s good because just having the petitioner\'s pov could be misleading (even with the logs).

You don\'t get anyone\'s POV unless the council decides to go out and ask people if they think it\'s a good/bad idea if the player gets killed. The only thing you submit with the death request is \"WHY\" this player should be killed. Not because you think he\'s an idiot, but because he\'s a menace to everyone or he constantly kills noobs all over the place. This will be proved/denied by the logs, which will show the time between aggressive actions, time of kill, amount of kills, etc. You don\'t get anyone\'s POV at all.

[dfryer]

So by this, you\'re suggesting that all NPCs know what\'s going on everywhere in the world? Bad idea, and bad roleplay. Very bad. The only reason why you know something is if you\'ve seen it yourself, or if someone has told you about it. An aggressiveness bar isn\'t a way to tell others you\'re bad. They should hear about you from friends/strangers, and fear you. There is no other way.

While I dislike the idea of an \"aggressiveness bar\", I think that rampant killers/bandits will gain a certain level of infamy, which the local NPCs will understand.  I think that this could potentially be determined by looking at PK logs, among other things.  In a more sophisticated system, stealthy kills would be less \"noticed\".

I\'m not saying that NPCs (who were generally not present at the time of the killing) should be \"magically\" aware of every single kill, but unless there is a *really good* way for players to spread tales of terror, I think this would be a decent substitute.

[SaintNuclear]

Originally posted by Gronomist
You only permanently kill someone if you decide to send a request to the Death Council. Everyone else just dies and gets to go through the death realm as usual.

What I meant was that there should be things that discourage players from making PKing meaninglessly.
The permanent death is good for that, but it\'s only if the player kills alot and someone asks to get him permanently killed. If the PS world will grow big and there will be many players, most chances are that people won\'t remmember the name of everyone that kills meaninglessly and count how many times he did it so far.
If there won\'t be a way to discourage meaningless kills besides the death council thing, I doubt it\'ll discourage anyone in a world with more than 150 characters.

Originally posted by Gronomist
So by this, you\'re suggesting that all NPCs know what\'s going on everywhere in the world?

Of course not. If no one saw the kill, no one knows about it. Unless the victim tells about it when he\'s back from the death realm.

I thought about a good way to implement the aggressiveness levels thing, but it\'s off topic so I\'ll just make another thread.

Originally posted by Gronomist
You don\'t get anyone\'s POV unless the council decides to go out and ask people if they think it\'s a good/bad idea if the player gets killed. The only thing you submit with the death request is \"WHY\" this player should be killed. Not because you think he\'s an idiot, but because he\'s a menace to everyone or he constantly kills noobs all over the place. This will be proved/denied by the logs, which will show the time between aggressive actions, time of kill, amount of kills, etc. You don\'t get anyone\'s POV at all.

Well, what if the kills were RP kills? Two players RPing and getting into a RP confrontation, they agree OOC that they\'ll go into a fight to the death, because they\'re RPing. One kills the other, and there\'s some player that sees it and is unaware to the OOC agreement.
The same player gets into more RP confrontations during the week, and then suddenly someone kills him and the council dooms him to permanent death.
Now, his friends for RP don\'t know that he got permanently killed, so there\'s no one that can ask the council to revive him and say that he was just RPing.

If he would have a chance to say that the \'victims\' agreed to get killed for the sake of RP, the council could ask the \'victims\', and they would say it really was agreed. If he can\'t say the kills were agreed on, the council will look at his case and say \"Ah, another idiot that kills just for the heck of it.\", and decides he\'ll be permanently dead.

I\'m not saying that the issue should be debated. The person that says he should be permanently dead says why he thinks so once, and the dead one gets to say why he did it once. And you know what, don\'t call it a POV. The dead player gets to say \"WHY\" he shouldn\'t be killed. No POVs here.