haters gonna hate

[PhoenixRizin]

Okay....here we go...

Trust is the root issue here. Since there is mass hate (and haters are indeed gonna hate), there are no opportunities for truly spontaneous RP. As an Outlaw, one of the first things we have to teach people who join is how to initiate a robbery OOCly (or murder etc.). The reason for this is because nobody wants to be robbed/killed OOCly, and as true anywhere, people fail to separate their characters from themselves. So when a robbery happens, they feel like they -really- were robbed. This leads to people being OOC out for blood. It's the same reason why most RP fights suck, because most can't stand an IC loss OOCly. The other problem is, unfortunately, that while the character in question was willing to return the stuff in an RP, there are indeed those who do it to sell the items for IG money, or to be annoying. While with the Red Crystal Den, there was definitely concern for people who may log out in the den, then log in during off hours to clean it out, as we were very careful to always lock up every day. Now, if indeed the player was banned without any talks with the GMs about his intentions, then there is an issue with it. BUT perhaps it would be wise for the player who does this to inform the robbed, even if it's after the fact, so they know that they shouldn't take it personal. Again, this is a game, and as I've read in countless MMORPG forums, we should all know to separate the game from real life. But, it happens. The banhammer probably came swiftly due to the negative PR the game has been getting (both deservedly and undeservedly), and if it appears that they allow griefing (intentional or unintentional) it creates more bad press.

Another huge reason for the state of things IMO (and I've seen it in other games as well), is *GW Bush word coming* GUILDIFICATION. What this new invented term means is that guilds are growing strongly OOCly instead of ICly, mainly based on game theory instead of game settings. In essence, while players who have voiced there opinion and left have been deemed the "Nazis", PS has been growing many small (or large) "Nazi" groups for a while now, whether its the "RP Nazi", the "PL Nazi", the "I want to be a Paladan who cares if this isn't Warcraft Nazi", the "Don't Discuss Other Projects While You're Here Nazi", etc. There is no one person or group to blame. These groups VERY OBVIOUSLY formed, and it was ALLOWED to perpetuate to the point where the community divides became strong. Real life example: Democrats and Republicans. No matter if one side comes up with a positive solution to make change, the other party is likely to side against it to advance their own side. This game is no different. Most have taken a side, and they will stick to it, and whether liked or not, the GM Position will always be a side. And when devs/testers/gms are calling players Nazis, they are putting the community at arms length and dividing it further by adding fuel to the fire. The GMs -and- the players need to take responsibility in this. Players need to stop dividing and start uniting, and GMs need to stop using banning/kicking/censorship to threaten its community instead of using forums like these where players discuss their differences to find the root cause. Because while it's easy to be right, its much harder to be humble, and a huge dose of humility is definitely what the doctor ordered.

Thanks for listening. I play MMORPGs for the people I meet. And a huge part of why I left was to join some of them elsewhere. If anyone wants PS to succeed, its not about RP or PL or any of it. It's about people. We stop acting like animals to each other when we start seeing the people on the other side of the chatbox.

[novacadian]

One of the things I learned when I first started playing this game is that it is bad form to force your RP onto others. You should invite others into your RP if you have something you want to do that will have major affect on another player.

Even in my relatively short time here this has been understood by me as well. Recently a player friend of mine said that she had a friend that wanted to do a robbery on my character if I wanted the RP. That seemed top form to me and it is my intention to get back to them about it.

Playing here is a privilege and not a right. GMs may seem heavy handed in any role playing venue because they can. Sadly but true, players can always be replaced.

- Nova

[LigH]

I understand the development team's position on this: the roleplayers blew it in PS.

Sorry. This generalisation makes me feel sad for roleplaying, because I am put into one pot with the so-blamed "elite / hardcore / nazi" roleplayers.

Be careful with your statements. (Not verden specifically, just in general.)

There are several levels of roleplayers - some who are able to accept limits, and some who try to break them recklessly.

Being blamed as roleplayer to destroy the game feels like some kind of "racism" to me ... there were other times when power-levelers were blamed of the same and got their own server; do we need a third one to separate the community more and more? Separation everywhere, instead of coexistence and tolerance. Hooray.

Not the roleplayers or the power-levelers are the reason a game gets destroyed. But the people with blinds on.

[Akkaido Kivikar]

Playing here is a privilege and not a right. GMs may seem heavy handed in any role playing venue because they can. Sadly but true, players can always be replaced.

- Nova

Playing on a role-playing server one would expect role-playing. In this case the ones who aren't role-players were sided with over the person who was. And the GMs say "If someone doesn't want to RP, they shouldn't have to". It's a ROLEPLAY server, isn't it? Isn't it?

@LigH: The problem is that the non-roleplaying crowd were given a server, but refused to move to it. And the "team" sided with them.

[PhoenixRizin]

Sorry. This generalisation makes me feel sad for roleplaying, because I am put into one pot with the so-blamed "elite / hardcore / nazi" roleplayers.

I'm gonna repost this since apparently it got missed somehow...

Another huge reason for the state of things IMO (and I've seen it in other games as well), is *GW Bush word coming* GUILDIFICATION. What this new invented term means is that guilds are growing strongly OOCly instead of ICly, mainly based on game theory instead of game settings. In essence, while players who have voiced there opinion and left have been deemed the "Nazis", PS has been growing many small (or large) "Nazi" groups for a while now, whether its the "RP Nazi", the "PL Nazi", the "I want to be a Paladan who cares if this isn't Warcraft Nazi", the "Don't Discuss Other Projects While You're Here Nazi", etc. There is no one person or group to blame. These groups VERY OBVIOUSLY formed, and it was ALLOWED to perpetuate to the point where the community divides became strong. Real life example: Democrats and Republicans. No matter if one side comes up with a positive solution to make change, the other party is likely to side against it to advance their own side. This game is no different. Most have taken a side, and they will stick to it, and whether liked or not, the GM Position will always be a side. And when devs/testers/gms are calling players Nazis, they are putting the community at arms length and dividing it further by adding fuel to the fire. The GMs -and- the players need to take responsibility in this. Players need to stop dividing and start uniting, and GMs need to stop using banning/kicking/censorship to threaten its community instead of using forums like these where players discuss their differences to find the root cause. Because while it's easy to be right, its much harder to be humble, and a huge dose of humility is definitely what the doctor ordered.

[novacadian]

Playing on a role-playing server one would expect role-playing.

Just because something is done on an RP server does not mean it is RP by definition.

- Nova

[LigH]

@ PhoenixRizin: Thank you, interesting quote... To refine my point: It is less important on which side you are, but more how much you can accept the existance of other sides. That is the essence of "tolerance".

@ Akaiddo: Where did you get that permission to presume rating/judging whole guilds by reactions of specific members on a crime (or even just on the luck of catching a criminal redhanded)? Terms like "(non-) roleplaying guilds" are an impudence. Guilds represent an average of all their members, and the result is not boolean. Not even the members' choice between RP and PL is boolean.

@ Vakachehk: I don't care any bit about your IQ. It doesn't make up for life experience in the slightest. And it doesn't protect from being wrong in a context of a society. I'll recommend the "Peter Principle" to you.

[Vakachehk]

It wasn't inside a house, it was when I was checking doors and saw them and hid behind a house and they caught me and had a run around.

@ Sarva you are saying it is my job to RP it... well I did by robbing the house, it isn't up to me to place books up saying there has been robberies, a robber would much rather not get found out... wouldn't he?

@ Nova you were there on Venorel when we had the chase around. If an action was done on an RP server it was RPed, am I right?
Well all you PLers better get practising your RP because once I am 21 and if I become a GM you'd be gone

[troyyer]

I understand the development team's position on this: the roleplayers blew it in PS.

Sorry. This generalisation makes me feel sad for roleplaying, because I am put into one pot with the so-blamed "elite / hardcore / nazi" roleplayers.

Be careful with your statements. (Not verden specifically, just in general.)

There are several levels of roleplayers - some who are able to accept limits, and some who try to break them recklessly.

Being blamed as roleplayer to destroy the game feels like some kind of "racism" to me ... there were other times when power-levelers were blamed of the same and got their own server; do we need a third one to separate the community more and more? Separation everywhere, instead of coexistence and tolerance. Hooray.

Not the roleplayers or the power-levelers are the reason a game gets destroyed. But the people with blinds on.

Coexistance and tolerance!

Yes, that is needed.

[LigH]

If an action was done on an RP server it was RPed, am I right?

No, that is an illogical and inappropriate generalisation. If it was so, we would never have had any discussion about non-roleplayers, or about OOC crimes.

[Vakachehk]

If an action was done on an RP server it was RPed, am I right?

No, that is an illogical and inappropriate generalisation. If it was so, we would never have had any discussion about non-roleplayers, or about OOC crimes.

And you are the so called RP government and can make those calls. Any action done on an RP server is roleplayed, so long as the action is within the settings it is.

[Vakachehk]

I would prefer a lot to be "roleplay-robbed" e.g. by any Outlaw or Cutthroat - or what Kull currently does in the Tower of Knowledge - in a clearly roleplayed style over being robbed in my absence without any interaction between the characters. This is a roleplaying game. It has to stay a game. Good or bad luck have to stay roleplayed. Making them persistent moves them out of the game into real-life.

Vieg is in The Dark Empire, just so you know. Which is a secret and bad guild too.

Ok so I agree I should of placed something like a book describing some evidence or a little piece of Vieg's Cloak that may of gotten ripped off, etc. But yes I was in a hurry to get out and let the RP done latter once they find out. But when they found out, nothing happened from their side so really, nothing I could of done.

[Durgrem]

I didn't see this thread before today, and as I see are most things already said. But I want to add and repeat a few things.
I made clear before, that I simply don't accept that some players willingly hurt others to have fun, and this is what happened here. Xoel made already clear somewhere else that he doesn't agree with my attitude, that I want all players to enjoy the game, and not just some on costs of others. So no need to repeat that here.
The main problem is, that one player had fun by hurting other players. To make it clear: Not the chars, the players.
The other problem is, that there was no rp involved in the matter that lead to the ban. To make it clear beforehand: If you roleplay just with yourself, or with people not involved in the matter in question, it also doesn't count for that matter.

Let me just make a quick and dirty summarization (For the flamers: please note that it's not intended to be comprehensive) how this robbery was done or could have been done:
1) You, as player, see a open guild house. You could do a few things: You can inform the guild about it, because you know some would (ab)use it. You can decide to rob them.
2) You decided to rob them, so you can again decide between a few things: You tell them beforehand and agree on an interesting rp. Or you can just do that without agreement and knowing it'll cause grief on the players behind the chars.
3) So, you rob the house without agreement. You can rob a few valuable items, or, you can decide to (almost) completely clean the house out.
4) Ok, you decided to rob the house without agreement, thus cause some grief and also to clean it out. You can now decide to inform the players after this was done to force this action as rp on them. They'll probably be angry with you, but this can be solved with a talk, maybe with the help of a gm to moderate before it gets bad. Or, you can decide to keep the items and not tell them. Not in day, not in weeks, never.
5) You decided to
   - just keep the items(also items of just personal value)
   - Not tell the players in any way so they have a clue what actually happened (it's not their task to be god and know everything)
   - Not leave any trace
   - Make no attemt to start a rp that involves the robbed people and leave them any chance.
6)You repeat that with more guild houses. You never do anything to start a roleplay that goes past the lonely, not agreed cleaning out of several houses.
And finally, you declare it as task of the victims to start a rp with you and declare everything as their guilt.

You didn't separate ic and ooc here and you show not the least will to even consider that something went wrong (not until that sentence in your last post).

[Ingles]

 It is easy to make up a story on what your intentions were after a ban is imposed. Funny that you stayed silent when in game you were ported to me (Would like to point out I was visible so no mistaking the fact I was a GM.) and I spoke to you, made my intentions clear and you never responded.

Plenty of time was given for you to respond, but as you did not, you left me no option but to ban you.

So a warning to you all; respond when a GM talks to you, and especially if he/she is visible.

[Aiwendil]

Or respond to a GM and get warned for it...doesn't really matter.