If Leveling....

[Bamko]

This is discussion of the EZPCusa server.. you know, the NON_RP server?

You can RP here all y ou like, but stop punishing me for playing the game as a freaking game.  Want to RP and punish those who want to also play the mechanics?  Please go to the RP server and leave us alone.  I level because it IS FUN.  You donto want to have the satisfaction of getting better by hours and hours of hard work?  go sit in the tavern and tell stories.  heck, go write a novel and make a lot of real world money if you are that good at it.  But to punish us because many of you are too lazy to put in the hours playing a great game?  Good way to end up with a lot of people who sit around chatting and not testing the mechanics. 

I swear... Talad said the EZPCusa server was not going to be RP required.  Why do you guys hate those of us who also like to play the mechanics so much.  I do not complain that you sit around drinking beer and doing all the talky talky talky, why do you need to punish us who actually like to work and improve ourselves.....

It is so fair here... You could become a better fighter than I, no genetic predisposition, no handicaps, no slower or faster reflexes that can not be trained.  The only factor is whether you want to play the game mechanics, or whether you just want to spend your time crying that you shouldnt have to do what everyone else had to do.

Want to make a new game? one that meets your specific desires?  Great!  Good Luck!  Go to it.  And lets see if anyone wants to play it.

But please stop trying to ruining the game so many have worked so hard to create.  You say "levelling needs to be fun instead of grinding"  ok, so if not fun, why do some people do it?  Maybe the defeiceny is not in the effort, but your unwillingness to exert that effort. (I need a browser with spellcheck.. sorry, but not willing to copy this into word, spell check, and copy back... hehehe)

I admit that perhaps repair armor is a lil out of balance.  he difference is I recognize that is MY opinion.  If I had such strong feeling as you about this issue, I would work harder on creating my own realm.  Check out one of my sites, glompzilla.com.  enough there to keep you busy a few hours, send you to some good sites.. and maybe help you figure out how to make your own game... currently you need to put in thousands and thousands of manhours (person hours?) to make even a simple game, and you need coding skills.  I do nto see why that has to be the case.. I poorly made game should be able to be tossed together in a weekend... of course will anyone play it?

In any event, I hope the RP elite realize they won, you have the main server where all of us PLayers (a nod to the accusation of being PowerLevelers) who spent tens of thouesands of hours leveling gave up and walked away from our characters to get away from you, having to start over here. 

If RP does not need levels, why didnt all the RP-eliters volunteer to go to the new server and let the PLayers stay with their levels on the gragnetics server?

and now you want to come here and continue the battle?  You won.  take your fragnetics server and good day.

I said GOOD DAY!   

[Quin]

Very tough question.  And multi-layered as I see it.

First: Ask the “average” player - At what skill and attribute levels would the player be happy with their character?  Not maxed out, not considering themselves among the elite, not even considering themselves masters of their chosen craft.  Just the feeling of  “OK, now this is something I can work with”.

Second: Ask the game designers - How many hours of grinding (not playing - and yes I know that for some, these are one in the same) do they feel is fair for a player to feel “happy” with their character.

Third: Then with these two pieces of info in mind, get into the real messy work of figuring how to divide these hours into the amount of skill progression wanted.


As far as I can see, we currently only have 3 general “character classes”
Warriors, Mages and Crafters.
Why not poll the players and ask what class they play and what would make them “happy” with their character? 
Maybe Warriors would be – 150 in each of the physical attributes plus weapon and armor levels high enough to take on an Ulber.  PvPers just want to be “a little better” than the guy they are fighting, so I don’t know what metric would be good for them.
Maybe Crafters would be – metallurgy, blacksmithing and weapon smithing levels high enough to craft a Q200 weapon (seeing as I gave up grinding weapon smithing along time ago, I’m assuming Q300 is still the top)
Mages? – no clue here.
And those Jack-of-all-Trades/I wanna be good at everything people should realize that this will take a very long time.

Who knows what would make the average player content?  But I think it is very important info to have.  Once a player spends that fair amount of grinding to be “happy”, then really crank up the learning curve and let the hard core grinders really work to become among the elite.

Just my 2 tria.

BTW – Just to start the poll.
My main character would fall into the general Warrior class and 150 in each of the physical attributes plus weapon and armor levels high enough to take on an Ulber was where I became “happy” and then started branching out into other skill areas.

Edit:  I would am kind of curious about what the Devs think is a "fair" number of hours of grinding (not trying to start a fight, just curious)

[verden]

Hahaha, Bamko... that was good. The point is that this is a testing server, and that the goal is a finished and balanced game. The game is neither finished nor balanced, so there is some discussion as to if decreasing the time spent levelling will increase the efficiency of testing and development. That is all. The problem here is that a game that is nowhere near finished is being treated like a finished game. This has been the situation on Laanx for a long time and it hinders development. No, nobody is going to go for a wipe every month. But if the characters were wiped (not the characters themselves mind you, just their numbers) on some kind of a regular basis we could work the numbers in the game better and hopefully get some balance into the system. Now, as far as that goes, re-creating characters is about the same.

[Parallo]

Bamko, this server is non-rp only to test features for the rp server. They will be the same game but the ultimate end is a perfect rp game. If you can't accept that maybe you should play another game rather than demanding that the direction of this one should be the same as every other one.

[Bamko]

First off, I am not the ones making demands.  Note OOmi said "The PlaneShift team is proud to announce the advent of a second server! We've been listening to what players have had to say on the forums and in IRC and thought it would be great fun to offer a place to let off some steam and just go... grind for a bit. You know, fill your pack to the brim with ulber furs, dig until your pick breaks; that sort of thing! " at http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34586.0 .  And my expressing my frustration that YOU who are not even Devs saying "we could work the numbers in the game better " .. um.. WE?

besides, I make a salient point.  Unlike you, I recognize, as I believe many Devs do, that if you make the game pointless and not fun, you lose your testers.  read the posts on the purpose of the ezpcusa server for crying out loud.  also I should caution you that some do not like when you impersonate Devs.  You fellow testers talk with Authority like you own the game.  Frankly, from all the official discussions I have seen, I am more nearly correct than you.  So debate among yourselves what you are going to do with a game you do not control, I am going to listen to Xillix, Xordan, and OOmi, and a few others.  I really do not see why you must fight the mechanics on BOTH servers.  how will they ever test the effect of having multiple people maxing out on several skills, and any bugs that may be there if you do not let anyone achieve them?  and how will you.. oh wait.. It is NOT you making those decisions.

And to any Devs or other leaders who may read this, feel free to contact me via PM to update me on any plans to make the ezpcusa server to be for RP only and to be the forum site for the RP vs PLaying (another nod to the accusation that enjoying the mechanics is power-leveling, which is BS) battle. 

As far as I am concerned, this debate is resolved.  my views are stated, and frankly I think this is a feeble attempt by the whining lazy wannabes (who are too lazy to actually volunteer to be devs OR to play the game using the mechanics the Devs have developed) to ruin the experiment of having ezpcusa being a seperate test server to let players play.  Of course I could be wrong, it might be a trick to get PLayers to Play, only to be wiped every other month and messed with. 

And Verden and others, do not mistake my passion and strength of conviction for sensitivity.  Leave it to you thought police to characterize those who disagree with you as being "too sensitive".  pardon me?  I enjoy a good debate.  Please do not worry your pretty little head with my "sensitivity".  Trust me.  Those who know me call me a lot, but thinking my "panties" are knoted, or that I am "too senstive" heh, good one.  I guess when you have no authority or logical comeback, you need to try ad hominem attacks.  Please try to leave the fact that I care enough about this project to state my opinions out of it, whether you have the right to demand everyone agrees with you.

If I sat here and said nothing, I am concerned the Devs might think no one cares, and let you ruin the game further.  This non-rp server is a nice testing area, and I look forward to testing it. 

One note, Those who have real authority, please can we have like a red title like "Official Dev" next to your name, so we can more easily tell the trolls from the official PS communication?  Too many are posing as Devs, and when they have a thousand posts, and no one puts them in their place, I start thinking their opinion actually is the party line.

If it was easier for me to tell the trolls from those in charge, I could /ignore a lot easier 

[Mythryndel]

The new server is a test server... sure. That DOES NOT mean that it is ONLY for testing. Laanx is a test server too. The game is not finished. This server has a relaxed atmosphere so we don't have to put up with your elitist BS on a daily basis. Go away and leave us be. Stop telling us that this is a RP game and that we are going to have to RP sometime anyway and whatever other arguments you keep spouting here. If the DEVS want to make a statement as to the nature of this server, then let them speak... but PLAYERS can just STFU already. Players have no authority to dictate how the game is played, when things are wiped, what activities are supposed to happen where... just drop it already. Go back to the tavern and drown yourself in the bottom of your tankard and leave the rest of us be.

[Quin]

* Quin tosses Bamko -pitbull guardian of the ezpcusa server- a milkbone

Now before the next posters decide it will be fun to tear into Bamko, please read my inane ramblings 5 posts above and make the majority of your post on topic

[Mordraugion]

  if you look at my name under it is a title Game Master then my forum post rank, Developers and Testers and Moderators all have this so it is easy to see who is Official and who isn't

[Irgendwer]

Hahaha, Bamko... that was good. The point is that this is a testing server,

Bamko, this server is non-rp only to test features for the rp server.

You are both wrong and it is beyond me, how someone who calls him/her/kraself a roleplayer can be such an expert at completely missunderstand what has been said by the PS team about the new server.

The purpose of EZPCUSA is to finally end that ongoing quarreling between PLers and RPers, even Xillix is tired of and which serves no purpose besides wasting everybody's time. From a marketing persepective, the RPers are a liability anyway (or does anyone think, the ultimate RPer argument, we hear ever so often, "maybe this is not the right game for you" is actually going to attract more players?). You guys finally got what you asked for: A server, where RP is enforced and that even without being the ones, having to move. Why did the PLers have to move? Simple: They moan and complain less when given chores (among other things). This is also the reason, why EZPCUSA has been called "more of a testserver" by Oomi. Devs can put in new stuff more easily here without having to take mad talk about how feature X will kill roleplay. PLers can be assumed to embrace new mechanics way more easily.
Having said that: No, EZ is not a "lesser" server, that only servers as refinery for the "real" server. It is not an exile and certainly not a punishment for people, who haven't seen "the light, yet". So please stop the nonsense already. This server/board serves the purpose of getting things done, not more gloryfying, of what is already overrated.

[khoridor]

I am tired of seeing something like:

... the whining lazy wannabes ...

In every one of your messages.
I don't know who you talk to, who you call a troll; probably everybody but you; but it's extremely annoying.
Furthermore, you do not answer the topical question. All you do is force us into that minorities war again. One page about you; the topic is not you.

All right, end of my off topic rambling, posted due the disappearance of my previous short comment (as if I was the insulting one or something). I expect this one to stay.

[Mythryndel]

@khoridor For the record... your posts were completely on-topic and while I don't agree with everything you said, you presented very good arguments to back up your observations/opinions. MY post was certainly not aimed at you...

[Lhaa]

how someone who calls him/her/kraself a roleplayer can be such an expert at completely missunderstand....

WTF, krans exist in RL now?!?!

* Lhaa carefully looks under the desk, making sure there are no gobbles there.

[Parallo]

@Bamko: Well you see now I'm very confused. There are conversations going on all the time debating 'forking of the project' and whatnot. Has it actually forked? Will we expect different features on each server? Has the focus become less about making an actual rp mmorpg and actually about making a generic mmorpg? I can only await clarification.

That aside, don't get me wrong. I do enjoy the mechanics myself when they're realistic and work towards being immersive. I don't see how anyone could enjoy mechanics that weren't to be honest. So, no, I do not fight mechanics. I have msn already so why would I play otherwise? (Didn't you mention ad hominems? Here's a wonderful strawman.) I love quests. I love the depths of the settings. I love social interaction. I simply don't enjoy grinding for months to get the character I want to play.

Also, take a look at the next part of that post.

It is not going to take the place of laanx.fragnetics.com; instead it is going to provide us with a great place to run trials of new features and get feedback. If these features function well and don't disturb the flow of RP, they will then be added to laanx.

Also,

We chose this path so that all of us, team members and players alike, can use the new server to better focus on testing improved game code and new features while allowing laanx to remain the haven of entertaining RP that keeps PlaneShift lore alive. This new approach can also lead to a more stable laanx if the PlaneShift community comes together to help make this server a fully populated proving-ground for fresh concepts.

That would lead me to believe, maybe falsely, that this is a server for testing things that will end up in the single server, dynamic player-influenced roleplaying game that we were always promised.

@Mythryndel: I agree. But all through the time I've been playing this game it has been solely an rp game. I'm simply going on what I've learned over those years. The brainchild of Talad, the actual roleplaying mmorpg. If I'm wrong and things have changed I'd love to hear it.

@Irgendwer: It has always catered to a certain type of gamer. Just like any game. If every game catered to the biggest demographic then they'd all be the same. It was always my impression this wouldn't be one of those generic grindfests. Also, I'm not belittling anyone with that enlightened crap. Yet more strawmen.

[Quin]

Topic Bump....

....was made easier, would you prefer it? Being able to max everything in a couple of weeks for example.

If yes, would it not mean that everyone was, rather quickly, equally leet and defeat the object of you levelling up in the first place?

If no, should levelling take even longer than it does now?

If niether, is the system perfect as it is?

No really, that is the topic.


And my apparently useless on topic post

Very tough question.  ...

Go back and read it.
Then if you still have an urge to flame anything in this thread, flame that

[Karyuu]

The project seems to be forking to me too, even with the "testing" guise of EZ. If you have one set of features on Laanx, but then completely different set of features on the other server, when it comes down to it you have two different games sharing the same art and settings.

Most games, when they divide RP and regular servers, make the RP one different only with strict anti-PvP rules and roleplay enforcement. In every other way, it's the same game using the same mechanics. This doesn't seem to be what the PS team is aiming for, so I'd too love further clarification.

Anyway, on the subject of leveling, I generally prefer hard without being too repetitive to keep me active. The problem that's always existed in PS is leveling being the same thing over and over again, with no increase in difficulty - just increase in time.