RMs

[Cha0s]

First, Karyuu was correct, mostly. I don\'t care about correctly marked OOC chat in braces [] or parentheses (). My issue is with chat that is not so-marked OR with lengthy OOC conversations (these should be in tells, or, if involving multiple players, in group chat), even those in braces and parentheses. Planeshift is a roleplay game. Blatant out-of-character statements and lengthy discussions about, for example, music (which I have heard), do not belong. You can not have an environment that is even the least bit immersive while people are discussing their favorite bands. This brings up another thing I will warn and eventually mute for: off-topic out-of-character chat, marked or not. Planeshift is not for discussing your favorite TV show. The braces [] and () should relate to in-game issues and should be used only for short conversations. If possible, use a tell!

Verrliit: You are clearly burning to correct my terrible sticky. Please, go ahead... in public. The purpose of this forum is to make sure we do our job better, and your criticisms should be helpful to that end.
I have a few comments, though, before you go at it.

Why do you think that so few players talk to you?

Where exactly do you get your information? Posting on the forums isn\'t the only form of communication around here. I talk to dozens of players in-game and on IRC, not all of whom are devs, GMs, or mods. Do not make assumptions like this and call them fact.

But the rules are sacred, and all must obey...

Yup. That\'s true.

And we serve the Devs, and not the players...

No. The devs created the rules. The rules serve the players. Without rules, there is chaos. There is no game. Imagine if there was no gravity. Or no rules for combat, crafting, talking to NPCs. The code is just rules that are enforced by the game engine. Without these rules, there would be no game. When the devs make rules, we follow them and ensure that the players follow them to benefit the players. Maybe the devs made a bad rule; fine, take that up with them. Do not complain to me for enforcing those rules.

...stay the heck out of our way, unless we ask.

Ah, but you do. Not the people speaking out-of-character of course. But I can recall numerous times where players have sent me a tell saying, \"Player X is spamming OOC chat in the plaza. Do something!\" So don\'t tell me I\'m just enforcing these rules for the sake of the rules. As I said above, the rules benefit the players. If you don\'t like them, talk to the devs.

As for people taking offense to \"Roleplay Masters,\" I ask why they do not take offense to \"Game Masters,\" as the word was picked so as to create a link between the two.

Lanstri: shame on me for what? Being misunderstood? My intent is to make the game more fun for the players, not be a brutal dictator. If you have any specific suggestions for clarifications in the sticky topic, please tell me.

[Verrliit]

Originally posted by Cha0s
Without rules, there is chaos. There is no game. Imagine if there was no gravity. Or no rules for combat, crafting, talking to NPCs

If all those thiings were gone, I could still RP my little furry tail off, Cha0s.  Perhaps even do more of it than I do now, because I would not have those activities to distract me from conversation.


The Devs only build a place to play.

The Players make the RP, and invent the games they can, using the things they have been given.

This is what RP is, Cha0s.

The Players are the game.  Not the code.




Verrliit.

[Lanstri]

*sighs*  I\'m hoping people do swing by to check out this thread.  It has only gone to prove my point.

  Chaos,

 I\'m sorry, but that was the most hypocritical thing I\'ve seen posted in awhile.  I can\'t tell you how many times I\'ve heard.. \"RP is encouraged, not enforced.\"  However, by reading your post.. anyone not RPing will be muted(or worse)!  That is blatant enforcement.

  If people want to talk about music, tv, women, men, love, or a poptart.. it is not your duty nor your right to tell them they cannot.  There are more than a few people on PlaneShift who do not RolePlay and have no desire to.  Why should they be limited to group and tell chats only?  Is that not discrimination?

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by Verrliit
Many approached me, to ask if your Improv Theater events meant the ending to players doing any RP at all.  What is needed is vastly more serious than simply redecorating.

I have never heard of any scenario where the introduction of team-lead events in a game have meant that the players cannot continue running their own events or playing privately. This is so foreign that I\'m honestly lacking any response.

I will take you at your word.  I will tell you what is wrong, in public, as you asked.  Just remember, I offered to do this in private, where it would not be embarrassing to you.

Excuse me? :) We have stated many times that we are always ready to listen to suggestions, tips, constructive criticism, and any and all comments that players would like to make. And have we not done that? Have you found us wishing to hide things in private corners, for fear of our mistakes \"embarassing\" us? Please, give the RM team a bit more credit, Verrliit.

Beyond Lanstri and I, no one who is not in your circle of friends has posted in this thread at all.

I must say that your continuous use of \"circle of friends\" is rather irritating - and insinuous of something conspiratory. I believe you know exactly the effect you are having with that phrasing.

You have proclaimed yourselves to be Role-Play Masters.  Those tiny few who still bother to read the forums, and found this to be pretentious and offensive, or took the rule page as insulting micro-management, as well as those who no longer read the forums, gave up on talking to any of you, long ago.

I do not remember anyone who once ever talked to me, giving up to hold further conversation. Certainly not over something as silly as this. I believe you are making assumptions...

The primary purpose of all of you, who serve the players as GM and Moderator, is to help if we say we need you, and stay the heck out of our way, unless we ask.

This attitude is vastly different from the kind image you portray in your signature, Verrliit, and it is a shock. As a moderator, I do get asked a lot to help forum posters - but even if no one asks and I manage something in the forums, I get thanked. Should I hang back until someone waves a hand and says \"Moderator, moderator! I need you now!\"? The same goes for GMs and RMs. I just cannot agree to this... almost vehemence I feel from that sentence.

If you do not do that, you are an enemy of play, and of the player.

I do not consider anyone who loves PS and wants it to be successful, to be an enemy, no matter how we might have disagreed.

I think I need clarification which Verrliit I am addressing.

Why do you think that so few players talk to you?

Verrliit, why do you claim to know how many players talk to us?

Why do you think that those in your circle of Moderators and their friends, are responsible for almost all of the posts?

Why do you insist on making such claims, when they are so hurtful and false?

Why do you think that not even a tiny fraction of the owners, of the 48,000 characters that were created since the wipe, have posted, and swamped the forums so badly that you need twenty more moderators just to read them all?

Are you blaming us?

This is honestly unbelievable. I don\'t think we have done anything to deserve such - the only thing you mentioned to cause this was the title of \"Roleplay Master,\" which is such a small thing that to cause something like this is just... well, unbelievable. I hope this gets sorted...

Maybe someone who is not in my personal little \"circle of friends\" would like to pick up from here? Or is it my fault that I consider the great majority of PlaneShift players to be in such?

[Cha0s]

Lanstri: No. Those are the rules of the game, not discrimination. If you want to talk about music, TV, etc, use IRC. When you\'re playing Planeshift, you roleplay. That\'s the purpose of the game. If you don\'t feel like roleplaying, do something else for a while. But when you\'re in Planeshift you have to roleplay.

Imagine if a bunch of people are roleplaying, having fun, developing their characters. Then you walk up and say, \"Hey, what\'s your favorite TV show? I like Friends, myself. Great show.\" Any mood that might have existed is gone. You ruined their fun. Players need to follow rules so that they don\'t disrupt each other\'s enjoyment of the game. Talking out-of-character is disrespecting those players that are here to play the game. OOC chat is not part of the game.

Verrliit: Of course you could roleplay. You could also fly around the world OOC and make a mess of everyone else\'s roleplay.

Without rules, anyone can go and ruin the game for the players that you value so highly. This game has a specific purpose: to provide a place for roleplayers to roleplay. Therefore, from the perspective of the RMs (and I\'d say the devs, though I won\'t speak for them), roleplayers are more important than those who refuse to roleplay. If you don\'t how, but are willing to learn, that\'s perfectly alright. But those that refuse to roleplay have no right to demand anything from Planeshift, the devs, or the RMs. The rules of Planeshift are made to make it easier for the roleplayers to immerse themselves in the world and have fun roleplaying. As I always say, if you don\'t want to roleplay, go somewhere else.

In summary, the purpose of Planeshift is to support roleplay; all things that work against this purpose (off-topic OOC, etc) are not permitted (OOC is permitted if it aids this purpose). Those that do not want to roleplay do not belong.

I don\'t care if you call me harsh or hypocritical. This is the truth. I am being direct in the hope that you\'ll understand.

[Verrliit]

Karyuu, and Cha0s:

I think I was clear enough to make sense.

But if you have any further questions or discussion you would like on this topic, I will be happy to oblige.

PM me.



Verrliit

[stfrn]

Originally posted by Cha0s

And we serve the Devs, and not the players...

No. The devs created the rules. The rules serve the players. Without rules, there is chaos. There is no game. Imagine if there was no gravity. Or no rules for combat, crafting, talking to NPCs. The code is just rules that are enforced by the game engine. Without these rules, there would be no game. When the devs make rules, we follow them and ensure that the players follow them to benefit the players. Maybe the devs made a bad rule; fine, take that up with them. Do not complain to me for enforcing those rules.

Very true. I have done nothing over my time devloping for myself. I don\'t even have my name listed anywheres on the credits, so I cannot even claim my work as my own. I do what I do for the players.

That said, if you load up planeshift and just chat, you are wasting our work. Might as well use a chat program and save laanx\'s bandwith.

[Moogie]

Verrliit, stop making up your own definitions for GMs/RMs, as they clearly don\'t make sense to anyone else.

You\'re one of those \"There\'s no game without players!\" fantatics, that much is obvious. But you -really- need to get something straight. The players don\'t run this place. We do. So you can whine and complain about things \'till the cows come home, but unless there\'s a real problem, nothing\'s going to change just because you make something up and pretend a whole bunch of people agree with you.

Players are important, sure. But we sure as heck don\'t \"serve\" you. We serve PS. Part of that just happens to be a responsibility for keeping the community happy, and we go beyond the call of duty in ensuring that need gets met. So instead of causing problems for us VOLUNTEERS -us people who are doing this for YOU, for FREE, with our own feelings getting smashed to hell in return- why don\'t you just run along and have fun like everybody else.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Verrliit
If all those thiings were gone, I could still RP my little furry tail off, Cha0s.  Perhaps even do more of it than I do now, because I would not have those activities to distract me from conversation.


The Devs only build a place to play.

The Players make the RP, and invent the games they can, using the things they have been given.

This is what RP is, Cha0s.

The Players are the game.  Not the code.




Verrliit.

I have serious doubts now. Verrliit, have you ever touched any pencil & paper role-playing game? Are you familiar with the Game Master function in there? Having some experience as one myself, I have to say enforcing role-play is the way to go.
Sure, I had reasonable players, who understood that I frown upon any non-rp behaviour, but was any disruptive event to appear, the consequences could be great (I had absolutely no problems with finding a way to just kill the character). And you know what? despise that most of those players were new to the whole role-playing they never whined about my Game Mastering and very often asked me to do it, because I made things interesting.
And I would laugh out any argument stating players are the game. No, players are just pawns controlled by the system. Disturbing thought? Maybe. The role-playing game is a scenery and a system. Players and people who keep order of everything simply bring the game to life. Players alone are most definitely not the game. Players alone can be a chat community at best.

And there are player guidelines that state one should listen to the Game Masters within tabletops (devs and RMs in here). Those people make an effort to create interesting scenarios and you should respect every bit of it. They have the right to enforce their rules seeing as it is them who spend their time making things more interesting for you. If you want, you may note a slight constructive criticizm to make them better at it, but when you\'re beating them with criticizm over and over, then that goes beyond a possibility of healthy environment and most likely against their will. You aren\'t supposed to argue about their decissions. If you don\'t like it and RMs don\'t want to change, by all means - do not participate.

[Moogie]

Draklar always says the things I want to say but can never think of.

Particularly this:

\"They have the right to enforce their rules seeing as it is them who spend their time making things more interesting for you. If you want, you may note a slight constructive criticizm to make them better at it, but when you\'re beating them with criticizm over and over, then that goes beyond a possibility of healthy environment and most likely against their will. You aren\'t supposed to argue about their decissions. If you don\'t like it and RMs don\'t want to change, by all means - do not participate.\"

[Kythag]

I am not in this \"circle of friends\" and these moderators, RMs, GMs, and others have been nothing but gracious and helpful to me.  Verliit, you have posted that you want to address what is wrong with the rules that have been posted on this forum.  PLease start doing so.  All I have seen so far are personal attacks on these people.  Please, post your suggestions about rules.

Another thing:  Cha0s is right:  Event moods will be disrupted by OOC chat.  There is plenty of space with a 10 foot say range to stay out of range of these events.  If I can stand in a trepor pit and not be heard asking if I may join the character in the pit, then it should not be difficult to walk ten feet to discuss the latest CD with your friends.  It is not hard to use tells either.  This is an RP community, the only one like it I\'ve seen that isn\'t elitist.  There is more respect for other players here than any online game I have played.  There is also more respect for players from this staff than any other online game staff that I have seen.  If you don\'t believe me, go to the Guild Wars website, email support and watch the non-committal, side-stepping response you get(this is going to be my first deleted post isn\'t it?)

I am so tired of coming to these forums and seeing the bashing of the staff of this game that I have seen.  These people are making little money(if any) working with this game.  There are companies making millions that don\'t give players the level of respect we get here.  Trust me when I say, the attitude you have displayed towards these people would have been squashed in any other online game, these posts would have been deleted, and you would have been banned.  The very idea that your posts are still here are testament to their willingness to listen

The idea you need to grasp:  This is a pure RP community.  I have never seen a RP community this lenient about their rules of conduct.  I make roleplayers leave the room for OOC discussions, roleplay out of earshot of others(people always act on info they\'ve heard unconsciously).  I can\'t tell you the number of times in this game a quest or search that should\'ve been harder was made simple by an OOC discussion within earshot(that\'s roleplaying on my part, but not theirs).

The reason you don\'t see more people in this game is that most that come here are not aware of what an alpha version is and what to expect from it.  The reason there isn\'t more people in the forums is several people do nothing more than bash this game, its officials, etc.  They see what is being posted negative and leaving before they could decide for themselves.  I know you are all trying to be helpful, but you are being too confrontational in your commentary.  State the facts of your case.  The personal commentaries are distracting from your points.

Now think about what you were thinking of me before with my comments.  You were angry at me, were you not?  You are coming across the same way.  Tone it down, please.  It is frustrating to not get your point because I am too busy being angry at things you are saying.

Sorry for long post, I seem to rarely have little to say :\\

Kythag

Edit:  Moogie posted while I was writing this lengthy thing and said what I wanted to say a lot nicer and more concisely  

Edit 2:  Apparently many people posted while I was wriiting this, I am horrible typist lol

[Bereror]

Usually I avoid these kind of discussions (or should I call it bashing and private attacks?), but by some reasons when you are involved I feel like I need to say something

You are turning everything upside down -- the game with all the settings, backgrounds and rules comes first and only then the community. It is not like a country with laws and governments, where every citizen has a voice and if we don\'t like the laws or rules or the government, we change them.

In addition, I have no clue what you are fighting for or against. I read all the posts and don\'t see the point. Is it the title Roleplay Master that you don\'t like? We know you are a master of roleplay, but it has nothing to do with the title. It is not an award, but a job they are doing and the job needs a name.

[Drey]

Originally posted by Kythag
These people are making little money(if any) working with this game.

hehe, just had to highlight that for any who missed it.

Originally posted by Draklar
They have the right to enforce their rules seeing as it is them who spend their time making things more interesting for you. If you want, you may note a slight constructive criticizm to make them better at it, but when you\'re beating them with criticizm over and over, then that goes beyond a possibility of healthy environment and most likely against their will. You aren\'t supposed to argue about their decissions. If you don\'t like it and RMs don\'t want to change, by all means - do not participate.

Like Moogie, i agree with this totaly and think it summarises this discussion.

Also, Keyaz\'s (there must be a better way to add the ownership to that) definition of RMs/GMs is all good and just.

Now, I would end discusion here, but other may want to post more.

[Karyuu]

Verrliit:

You have offered to share constructive criticism on what you feel is currently wrong with the RM concept or the team itself.  Please share it publicly if you have it, where everyone can see and comment - for it is very much a community issue - or if you do not have it, then please do not post anything at all, for indeed you have so far made a grab for straws and personal attacks. For one, whatever you may wish to suggest in a PM, others may disagree with - and we need to know the opinions of as many people on changes as possible. I very much respect you for your roleplaying abilities, but that is where my respect has ended after this all. Please do not feel threatened by \"Roleplay Masters,\" for as Bereror said - you are one - and as you said originally, you would love to join future events. So please, again, either explain your problem or avoid posting inflammatory remarks.

[Nilrem]

The first day I saw the name of Roleplaying Master was choosed, I met Zan ingame, and discussed a bit with him, that I recall as the first one to propose the creation of this figure. After doing that, I PM Chaos.

Very recently, we had seen threads where misunderstandings are the common source of problems; for instance the one that had to state (for the n-th time) that 500 advisor points != being a Game Master.

I feared, that choosing the name \"Roleplaying Master\" could lead to people, not only to consider that with that name their rp is placed in a lower level, but also could claim \"Where are the points you\'ve to earn to become one\" like happened with the Game Master issue. This misunderstandings are a headache to all the community, I think; and thus, should be tried to be avoided before they have the chance to appear.

If the problem lays on a name that brings confusion, and unfortunately it\'s been proved that it brings it, then the best way to face it is change it, and adopt another one, less conflictive and perhaps more descriptive. Now that this new figure is at an early stage, it\'s the moment to spot, and fix those possible problem sources.

With my conversation with Zan, I specifically asked him if the name he suggested was \"Event Master\" and I seem to recall that was the name, well, but now seems that \"Master\" recalls too much to \"Game Master\" but it was chosen, precisely, for that similitude.

Since, as Keyaz said, both Game Masters, and Roleplay Masters are separate entities, the best way to, again, avoid the confusion, would be to have non-related names; that could lead to people reading one, and then recalling the other, thusly, stablishing a connection between the two.

I suggested Chaos the name of \"Event Manager\" as it seems that Master was bringing too many problems.

The name of \"Roleplay Master\" was picked up amongst others that were in mind, seeing how things turned, I suggest either reconsidering the initial decision, or making a public poll, so the community decides which name describes in the best way the RM functions, while at the same time keeping away any possible source of misunderstandings that, too often, end up in personal flaming.

As for the initial post, by Lanstri, I think he was, where he stated his alarm, when seeming to understand that he was prompted to write down all his rp actions in this forums: I recieved, in game, tells that where pointing in that same direction. I don\'t know if the stickies aren\'t clear enough, as when I read them I didn\'t had that thought Lanstri and others seemed to catch, but, again, if that feeling is shared by more than one person, perhaps there is indeed something in the writing that leads to think on that direction. Now I\'ll seem like the one who wants to rename it all but I\'m just seeing, while I write this post, that the forum is called \"In Game Roleplay\" perhaps it was that what lead those players to think that they were supposed to state about all their ingame actions here.

So, just again, the purpose of this subsection of the forums is making a track log of all the events that were assisted by this new figure, the RM, and the players that participated on any of them, are encouraged to post about their feelings while the action was performed ingame, and they can also add comments, suggestions for future events or criticism on how the event went.

At another time, there can be also a debate about the events themself, but, for the moment, I think that the whole conversation should be driven again to a constructive sharing of ideas.

I\'m neither used to long posts, Kythag but I think it can add another point of view, hope all of you can extract something useful from it.

See you all ingame.

EDIT: Changed recognize for spot, I think it fits better. I think recognize only has a meaning of searching on military environments, or perhaps not even that...
Well, like that one said, more or less: Don\'t read what I wrote, but what I meant.