Author Topic: A balanced system for all  (Read 647 times)

Kiraki

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A balanced system for all
« on: November 06, 2010, 03:52:30 am »

~Firstly I am referring specifically to balance when it comes to one person being able to have maxed stats, fighting, magic, everything.  This is not a debate over which of these is better than the other.

~Secondly, yes I know balancing has been discussed hundreds of times but I do not remember anything like this being mentioned before, also I am not a programmer and I don’t know how it would be implemented etc. this is the wish list and this is simply my wish explained, read it at your own risk.
 
In my opinion being able to max everything is completely unrealistic since no one person would ever be able to actually become a master of every little thing under the sun.
(As a side note it also becomes very unrealistic RP-wise as it makes one person feel far too powerful for their ego’s to contain and actually encourages god-modding since they seem to be under the impression that god-modding is perfectly fine for them seeing as they have everything maxed and the game mechanics allow for this.)

Anyway, there are two points that I am going to elaborate on, first the different magic ways and then balancing everything as whole.

Now, to start off I am going to use sport as an example to get everyone on the same wave length as me so that my logic will make some sense.  Most of you will probably see where this is leading anyway.

~Firstly, is it possible to play several different types of sports?  Of course it is!

~Now, is it possible to become a pro at all of these?  Highly unlikely!  The reason being the better you become at any one sport, the more time and effort you need to put into said sport to continue improving.  Thus you will start neglecting some of the others.

Think of it as trying to be a pro weight lifter and sprinter at the same time.  Each is vastly different in itself and you will have to give up some of the attributes you need for the one to improve in the other.  The weight lifter would have to focus a lot more on strength and build up a lot of bulk, loosing some agility along the way, where as the sprinter would be focusing mostly on speed and thus become more lean and agile.

Now let us replace sports with magic ways:

~Firstly, is it possible to learn several different ways of magic?  Of course it is!

~Now, is it possible to become a pro at all of these?  Highly unlikely!  (For the same reasons as mentioned earlier)

For example is it really possible to become a master of both crystal and dark way when they have such opposite natures?  Or even become a master of all 6 ways, all of which have their opposites?
In my opinion there should be some sort of balance.

A simple way to do this for magic would simply to put in a seesaw effect for each pair of opposites.  To explain this better let’s use dark way and crystal way as an example.

Say you have both at 0.  You decide to train up crystal way to 10 = automatically to balance this out your max obtainable dark way becomes 90.  Train crystal way to 20 and the max for dark way becomes 80.  By the time you reach 70 in crystal way your dark way will be limited to 30.  Of course this will in no way be ‘locked’, meaning you can go and train dark way past 30 and then keep training it to say for example 40, but as a result your crystal way will have dropped from 70 to 60.
Thus effectively you can fully master up to 3 ways or have a broader but less powerful skill range over all 6  (Also since it is not static you can train or re-train any of the ways at any given point in time).



However this solution is limited to resolving the odd logic behind being able to master two ways that are opposite to each other (Actually it could possibly work on stats as well).
To extend this past magic and onto fighting and defensive skills while keeping within the same principles a slightly different method can be used.
For simplicity sake I am going to use a points system as an example and work with five groups:  Offence, Defense, Magic, Jobs and Various.

Now let’s say you start off with 10 points.  You decide you want to be a mage and you put all 10 points into Magic.  This effectively allows you to train magic to 10.  As you train you gain more points and you decide your mage is a bit weak so you add those points into Defense and train that for a bit.  At a later stage you realize being a mage is not really your calling so you decide to unlearn magic and put those points into Offence instead and you start training fighting.  Or perhaps you decide you want to try out everything and you put two points into each group.
Of course there would be some sort of limit that you can reach, say for instance a total of 500 points, which of course you can choose to distribute as you like.  If the max for each skill is 100 for instance, then it still leaves room for a lot of variability for example:

~You could master one of each group;
~You could master two Offensive skills, two Defensive skills and a Job;
~You could master one Offensive skill, one Defensive skill and split the rest of the points between each magic way to learn a little of each.
~You could not master in anything and instead be moderately skilled in several things.

Of course using points was only an example, one could also use experience as a meter/bar or anything that will allow such growth which, essentially, is just a basic indicator of time spent on each.  Rather like planning out your daily schedule and allotting everything a time slot.
I feel this more accurately reflects reality as those skills which are given a lot of attention will be better than the ones less time is spent on. 

This allows for enough flexibility to master the skills that are most important to your character or even the option to not master anything but instead learn a little bit of everything.
Basically the result of this is that you are not limited to sticking with whatever you chose at the start and thus become free to experiment and try new things, while at the same time you are not able to become the supreme lord and master of every single skill available. 

Vakachehk

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2010, 04:30:54 am »
This is a great idea  :thumbup:

But, I will be honest. I do train some skills OOCly. So what I mean by this is that I plan on getting Azure way to 80 so I can, see peoples stats if I need to rank them up, and to help new players gain PP by being able to rejuvenate their mana. But then there is always a small simple solution to my problem and that will have to be alt.

PS. No KIC doesn't rank by skills, anyone can rank anywhere with having no change in their stats (but this is very unlikely) we mostly like our members to max out strength just to be able to wear Heavy Armor :) b'cos it looks kool.
You maybe roleplaying but you could still be OOC.

RlyDontKnow

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2010, 05:42:27 am »
that system sounds pretty static to be honest
you'll always limit people to make a specific selection of skills that way.
e.g. one may decide to only master magic ways while not training any combat or even job ones. why shouldn't he be able to? (NPC example of this is zhaomal)

also you should reconsider your topic, this isn't a "balance for all", it's mererly a "limitations for skills"

anyway, you may want to have a look at this thread:
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37524.0

in your case especially the proposal of nivm (which came up a few others times before iirc) which is a lot more dynamic than just putting OOC limitations and tackles the same system (jack of all trades)

Bonifarzia

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2010, 06:04:32 am »
Still, I think it is good when people do reason about one of the oldest controversies in planeshifts progression system.

Notice my little idea linked by RlyDontKnow is definitely not enough to address the problem that people can become a master of all trades.
On the other hand, I have the impression that it is one of Planeshifts core concepts that everyone is free what to learn and practice.

Personally, I think the best solution would be to have a system where skills do not directly affect each other in terms of training limits, but where you have some antagonistic and synergistic effects. As an example, training the skill antimagic should give you an overall higher chance to fumble when casting a spell, or some decrease of each spells overall power. Thus, you could train the magic ways and antimagic independently from each other, but your spellcasting abilities will definitely suffer from advanced antimagic lessons. In this sense, people could train everything they like, without any restrictions. But there would not be much of a reason to max out everything, if a reasonably  specialized skill build yields much better competences at a fraction of the training effort.

By the way, I like that signature very much. Will you share more art of this kind?

Maisent

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2010, 02:51:06 pm »
I think it's a great idea. But what off the oldies that have maxed all six ways? They've spent millions and millions trying to learn it and probably like months, even years. It would be unfair, if this get's implemented, to just drop their skills like that.

Also magic is very different from sports. Magic uses your brain. Yes, crystal way and Dark way is highly different, but it doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't be able to max them both. I think you should be allowed to max them both, except that once you have maxed their opposite way, the other one gets tougher and more expensive to train. There are mages in other games, or movies that have almost known knowledge of all the spells, wether they are summoning the dead or curing the ill.

Vakachehk

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2010, 04:05:42 pm »
They may have knowledge Maisent but they probably don't have experience, so what I am meaning is that they read a book and know it. But have never done it.

You can't be an expert at Crystal way and Dark Way. They are both opposite and no matter who you are you can't think opposite its like telling yourself to rub your bally and tap your head. Crystal Way is looking at the light of the world, and Dark way is looking at the dark of the world. Yes you can know some/little maybe a lot of Crystal way and be an expert at Dark Way but its too impossible to be an expert of both ways.
You maybe roleplaying but you could still be OOC.

RlyDontKnow

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2010, 04:27:13 pm »
You can't be an expert at Crystal way and Dark Way. They are both opposite and no matter who you are you can't think opposite its like telling yourself to rub your bally and tap your head. Crystal Way is looking at the light of the world, and Dark way is looking at the dark of the world. Yes you can know some/little maybe a lot of Crystal way and be an expert at Dark Way but its too impossible to be an expert of both ways.

it's impossible to recognize there's light and dark and that they're the same thing? it's impossible to see both sides of a coin?
that assumption sounds pretty close-minded to me
I may have missed something, but it's quite possible to see both sides of a coin, isn't it? ;)

Vakachehk

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2010, 06:45:55 pm »
but it's quite possible to see both sides of a coin, isn't it? ;)

Well yes you get 2 coins and you have them both on different sides :D
You maybe roleplaying but you could still be OOC.

Piriel

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2010, 03:34:03 am »
Quote from: Maisent
I think it's a great idea. But what off the oldies that have maxed all six ways? They've spent millions and millions trying to learn it and probably like months, even years. It would be unfair, if this get's implemented, to just drop their skills like that.

They're bound to get that sooner or later when PS gets completed. If the plans haven't changed they'll delete all the stats with the final release. Also those players would probably feel more at home on the Ezpcusa server than the RP server. But that's just a personal opinion :)

But back to the topic...

I agree on the matter with Kiraki and Vakachehk. Talking here purely from the RP perspective I don't see how it's possible to have a character that's skilled in healing people and hurting people and be -perfect- at both. Or better said both good and evil. Most people when they think of their characters backgrounds usually choose a series of settings that will make them take one of the two paths. I for one consider Dark Way and Crystal Way to be mutual exclusive. I can't see both sides of the coin when it comes to necromancy spells and healing spells.

My point is that a balancing is needed both stat wise and magic wise otherwise you're simply inviting god-modding. I'm pretty sure that anyone reading this topic can relate with meeting a "master of the universe" char that can't ever loose a RP duel because they can't understand that having maxed stats has nothing to do with RP.

Also I don't see how having the seesaw will be in any way limiting to any player who doesn't want a perfect OOC char ("I have max stats" is OOC). Most of the players who RP will only level their chars for some trias (buy a beer, get a ulber fur, buy a ring, etc.) not to brag with their awesome stats. And those people would appreciate true realism in this game. And I'm pretty sure this discussion was started with the RP server in mind.

Cheers.


Maisent

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2010, 12:51:31 pm »
Using sports as an example wass a bad idea. Sports is physical, magic is mental. Lifter/sprinter would not go together because your body structure has to be exact to be a pro at one of them. Unlike magic, which uses the brain. And i don't think brains can change. Brain is knowledge, if you are smart you can crack most puzzles/spells etc. Anyways you can be a master of both light and dark, as I said many mages from games and/or movies out there have learned spells to cure someone, and some spells to curse someone. My idea is that, once you have learned/ maxed out a way (crystal way for example), the opposite (dark way)should be harder and more costly to train.

Kiraki

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2010, 01:04:46 pm »
This is a great idea  :thumbup:

But, I will be honest. I do train some skills OOCly. So what I mean by this is that I plan on getting Azure way to 80 so I can, see peoples stats if I need to rank them up, and to help new players gain PP by being able to rejuvenate their mana. But then there is always a small simple solution to my problem and that will have to be alt.

PS. No KIC doesn't rank by skills, anyone can rank anywhere with having no change in their stats (but this is very unlikely) we mostly like our members to max out strength just to be able to wear Heavy Armor :) b'cos it looks kool.

Personally I prefer not to train OOC skills :)  HA does look awesome though :P

that system sounds pretty static to be honest
you'll always limit people to make a specific selection of skills that way.
e.g. one may decide to only master magic ways while not training any combat or even job ones. why shouldn't he be able to? (NPC example of this is zhaomal)

also you should reconsider your topic, this isn't a "balance for all", it's mererly a "limitations for skills"

I tend to disagree as I think of the current system is static, the method I proposed allows for things to continually change where as currently once you maxed something it's maxed and that's it.
Also I did explain why they should not be able to, it is simply not realistic.  I understand how tempting it is to have a 'superman' character, but when everyone else is 'superman' too does that not defeat the point and take you back to square one?  Where is the uniqueness in that? 

I know my example was limited to the mastery of 5 skills, but it is only an example and even changing that to 10 would still be more realistic than being able to master all 30+ skills available in the game.   

anyway, you may want to have a look at this thread:
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37524.0

in your case especially the proposal of nivm (which came up a few others times before iirc) which is a lot more dynamic than just putting OOC limitations and tackles the same system (jack of all trades)

I did actually read that, thank you, it is a bit more complex than my suggestion and I do agree with what was suggested, but the focus was on stat growth in accordance with specific race and actual training experience etc. which would of course play a role in skill selection where as my suggestion is focused more on the realism behind the trainability of a set number of skills at a time.

To me it simply makes sense that if you do not regularly train a skill your mastery of that skill will degrade with time or that training a different skill will have some impact on it, whether that be negative or positive.  The two concepts do however address the same problem if simply in different ways.

Still, I think it is good when people do reason about one of the oldest controversies in planeshifts progression system.

Notice my little idea linked by RlyDontKnow is definitely not enough to address the problem that people can become a master of all trades.
On the other hand, I have the impression that it is one of Planeshifts core concepts that everyone is free what to learn and practice.

Personally, I think the best solution would be to have a system where skills do not directly affect each other in terms of training limits, but where you have some antagonistic and synergistic effects. As an example, training the skill antimagic should give you an overall higher chance to fumble when casting a spell, or some decrease of each spells overall power. Thus, you could train the magic ways and antimagic independently from each other, but your spellcasting abilities will definitely suffer from advanced antimagic lessons. In this sense, people could train everything they like, without any restrictions. But there would not be much of a reason to max out everything, if a reasonably  specialized skill build yields much better competences at a fraction of the training effort.

By the way, I like that signature very much. Will you share more art of this kind?

My ideas are simply examples of what could possible be done, I completely agree with there being both antagonistic and synergistic effects to each skill, each skill should have some disadvantage to learning it or at least an effect on opposing skills. In fact this would be ideal but far more complex than my suggestions as each skill would need to be allotted bonuses or disadvantages in relation to every other skill or in the least to opposing skills.

(Also if you are referring to my sig, thank you but it is about 4 years old, I am just to lazy to change it :p )


I think it's a great idea. But what off the oldies that have maxed all six ways? They've spent millions and millions trying to learn it and probably like months, even years. It would be unfair, if this get's implemented, to just drop their skills like that.

 Well like mentioned already that will probably happen regardless :p


Also magic is very different from sports. Magic uses your brain. Yes, crystal way and Dark way is highly different, but it doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't be able to max them both. I think you should be allowed to max them both, except that once you have maxed their opposite way, the other one gets tougher and more expensive to train. There are mages in other games, or movies that have almost known knowledge of all the spells, wether they are summoning the dead or curing the ill.

True, magic does require you to use your brain, but it does not alter the fact that it would still require training, albeit the mind instead of the body.
I am not trying to debate whether both dark and crystal way should be used or not, the first example was simply a suggestion at balancing.  Following the second example leaves room to learn both after all.
Perhaps you do have a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde type character that can learn both, but remember there are four other ways to learn as well. Also let us not stop there since there are still several types of weapons to master as well as armors, and of course numerous types of jobs and other skills.  Where do you draw the line before it becomes too much?

They may have knowledge Maisent but they probably don't have experience, so what I am meaning is that they read a book and know it. But have never done it.

You can't be an expert at Crystal way and Dark Way. They are both opposite and no matter who you are you can't think opposite its like telling yourself to rub your bally and tap your head. Crystal Way is looking at the light of the world, and Dark way is looking at the dark of the world. Yes you can know some/little maybe a lot of Crystal way and be an expert at Dark Way but its too impossible to be an expert of both ways.

I would not say it is necessarily impossible, but they would most certainly have some sort of effect on each other seeing as their very natures are at such opposite ends of the spectrum.  Either way it would most certainly not be a simply task to master and be able to use both interchangeably.





I agree on the matter with Kiraki and Vakachehk. Talking here purely from the RP perspective I don't see how it's possible to have a character that's skilled in healing people and hurting people and be -perfect- at both. Or better said both good and evil. Most people when they think of their characters backgrounds usually choose a series of settings that will make them take one of the two paths. I for one consider Dark Way and Crystal Way to be mutual exclusive. I can't see both sides of the coin when it comes to necromancy spells and healing spells.

My point is that a balancing is needed both stat wise and magic wise otherwise you're simply inviting god-modding. I'm pretty sure that anyone reading this topic can relate with meeting a "master of the universe" char that can't ever loose a RP duel because they can't understand that having maxed stats has nothing to do with RP.


Agreed but they do not necessarily need to be mutually exclusive, however as I already mentioned there should be some sort of implication for using both.

Using sports as an example wass a bad idea. Sports is physical, magic is mental. Lifter/sprinter would not go together because your body structure has to be exact to be a pro at one of them. Unlike magic, which uses the brain. And i don't think brains can change. Brain is knowledge, if you are smart you can crack most puzzles/spells etc. Anyways you can be a master of both light and dark, as I said many mages from games and/or movies out there have learned spells to cure someone, and some spells to curse someone. My idea is that, once you have learned/ maxed out a way (crystal way for example), the opposite (dark way)should be harder and more costly to train.

As I mentioned already the brain still needs training nonetheless.   There are also differences in the brain as there are with the body, an overly simple example perhaps being someone that is more mathematically inclined compared to someone that thinks more abstractly. It is tricky to train the brain to think in two completely opposite ways at the same time.   
Making one way harder to train once another is maxed does simply that alone, it makes it harder to train, but with time it will still be possible to max both.



Maisent

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2010, 11:20:17 pm »
@ Kiraki


Yes, it will get harder, thought not impossible. Once a player has achieved a high CW level or osmething it will get harder and harder to read Dark way because they are so different.

novacadian

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Re: A balanced system for all
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2010, 02:18:43 pm »

Alignment normally handles such thing in table rpg play. How to handle alignment on PS is a thread of its own; however if it were something casually asked during character creation so that a GM may, at least, point to it before giving a warning not to bother training further in a certain area or while acting as referee in an RP it would be a start.

- Nova