Some learn by doing...

[Volki]

Yeah... You definitely didn't get it.

[Raxuss]

you described the system exactly the way it is except you would get rid of the experience which makes no sense at all as it's a common feature in the majority of MMORPG for good reasons.

This isn't WoW. It's not a grind. It's an RP game. We aren't here for levels, we're here to tell stories.

MMORPGs tend to have experience to draw people in. To get them addicted to getting that next level, that next step. That is not the purpose of this game, I had thought. Realism and immersion is the name of the game and experience points are not realistic nor is grinding immersive. Getting better at a skill as a result of doing that skill is both.

If grinding and leveling is, indeed, the purpose of this game, then shame on me. Like I said, I'm new. Sorry.

I already understood that before and it requires either paying the cost in advance (which is unsupported other than it adds another layout of complexity to the system instead of simplifying it) or having the computer making the choice for you (which would be even worse).

You already pay in advance; that's what paying for training does. You pay to go off and learn more of the skill.

With my suggestion, you would simply strengthen the action. That's it. Instead of paying 100 tria for 1 rank, you pay 1000 tria for 10 ranks (prices not to scale, obviously). No secret hook or fine print. You pick your number of training sessions, it spits out the costs and a confirmation window, and bam; now you go do what you do to go earn those ranks.



Having the computer do anything automatically should not even be considered.

[cdmoreland]

The thing is, this is BOTH a role play game and a grinding game. I grind and role play, and grind to role play. Would you want someone that cannot cast a spell to teach you how to do it? There are those that want to play pretend and there are those that level their skills to play. Waesed gets a little peeved at those that interrupt his rp and want him to play by their rules. Please, do not expect me to role the dice to see if I even hit you.

[Volki]

This discussion has nothing to do with styles of roleplay.

[cdmoreland]

This discussion has nothing to do with styles of roleplay.

Just responding to the previous post. Do we grind or do we role play? The answer is that we do both, some more than others. That is a personal choice.

[Eonwind]

This isn't WoW. It's not a grind. It's an RP game. We aren't here for levels, we're here to tell stories.

MMORPGs tend to have experience to draw people in. To get them addicted to getting that next level, that next step. That is not the purpose of this game, I had thought. Realism and immersion is the name of the game and experience points are not realistic nor is grinding immersive. Getting better at a skill as a result of doing that skill is both.

If grinding and leveling is, indeed, the purpose of this game, then shame on me. Like I said, I'm new. Sorry.

This is a RP game with game mechanics. No one is forcing you to use any in-game mechanics at all. Do you want to skip mechanic and just RP? You're welcome. Do you want to play using the game mechanics and raise you skills? You're welcome as well.
There's one thing I just want to clearly state: even if we try our best to make this game as immersive as possible and stick with the IC rule as much as we can (and I'm not saying there aren't mistakes and things that can't be done better) there is and there will always be (not just here but in every single game) some element not "realistic". This is and will always be impossible to eliminate. Afterall even reality is something which is perceived and subject to the observer's point of view.

With my suggestion, you would simply strengthen the action. That's it. Instead of paying 100 tria for 1 rank, you pay 1000 tria for 10 ranks (prices not to scale, obviously). No secret hook or fine print. You pick your number of training sessions, it spits out the costs and a confirmation window, and bam; now you go do what you do to go earn those ranks.

I understand your point of view and I appreciate your suggestion, however imo I'm feeling this would add even more complexity to the game, the code, the gameplay and I feel like we should make things more simple instead of the opposite.

[Raxuss]

The thing is, this is BOTH a role play game and a grinding game. I grind and role play, and grind to role play. Would you want someone that cannot cast a spell to teach you how to do it? There are those that want to play pretend and there are those that level their skills to play. Waesed gets a little peeved at those that interrupt his rp and want him to play by their rules. Please, do not expect me to role the dice to see if I even hit you.

I do not think you understand my stance here. I'm asking to get rid of the middle man as you get your levels. That discussion has evolved into two; how to minimize trainer visits (which also inhibits getting ranks, albeit not especially critical) and if we need the middle man that is PP.

To minimize trainer visits, be allowed to train enough so that you may gain multiple ranks before returning. How this is more complicated than selecting the amount of PP you want to spend on trainers already is apparently beyond me.

To cut out the PP would be leaving players with tria and actual experience; instead of needing PP and tria, you would need only tria to train skills. After that, your actions progress your rank until you rank up.


I did not know that this game favored grinding as well. I was briefed heavily after I arrived on how ranks and such were very much secondary in the game than RP. That RP was the single most important element in the game. I was told mistakenly; grinding and RP are of equal importance. That is fine, I can accept that.

I understand your point of view and I appreciate your suggestion, however imo I'm feeling this would add even more complexity to the game, the code, the gameplay and I feel like we should make things more simple instead of the opposite.

Hey, I tried a solution. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Just know that I'm of the mind that the elimination of PP and allowance of a greater number of rank training than one would result in simpler game-play. You said you got that, so I have nothing more to add.

Thanks for taking the time to read my attempted solutions and give feedback on them.

[Eonwind]

you're welcome

I did not know that this game favored grinding as well. I was briefed heavily after I arrived on how ranks and such were very much secondary in the game than RP. That RP was the single most important element in the game. I was told mistakenly; grinding and RP are of equal importance. That is fine, I can accept that.

[Brief  ]
It's true we're putting a lot of emphasis on RP and this is for sure a very important factor, personally I still think it's the single most important element of the game. However there are players that skip "leveling" at all and peoples that feel like backing up their RP with actual game mechanics (and I'm trying to make so game mechanics support RP as much as possible). Personally I don't mind either way of playing the game and I feel like it's fine for everyone to choose the way they like best.

[tman]

Personally I don't see the problem with PPs.  It's just experience.  You can spend it on skills or stats.  Who cares?  Yeah, you could get rid of them and training skills would be more or less the same, since the system was updated so that skill training grants enough experience to buy the next level.  If you choose to blow all those PPs on stats instead, then you're out of luck.  You'll have to get more experience to level your skill.  That's just how it works.  Nothing wrong with it.

If you get rid of PPs, skill training will be more or less unchanged but stat training will be pointless.  Anyone with rich friends or a rich alt can get 400 in all stats in an hour.  That's not how the system is supposed to work.  You're supposed to have to consciously allocate your experience to stats/skills in order to develop your character.  Changing the way stats are raised is an option, but that'll take a LOT more work.  So the whole "just get rid of PPs and everything is better" argument is kinda silly.  It requires so much more work than that.


About trainers, I would LOVE the ability to buy multiple levels at a time.  Right now, having to track down the trainers for a given skill is the most frustrating part of the leveling system.  ESPECIALLY when you're training multiple skills at once (like herbal/alchemy or a weapon and armor) and the trainers are in different cities.  SOOO much wasted time and tria traveling back and forth...

Yes, having the choice to buy multiple skills at once slightly complicates the system, but I think the benefit to the players FAR outweighs this.  Maybe a compromise: only have this option available once a skill reaches level 20 or so.  This means new players won't have to worry about it.  They can spend the early time learning the basics of training.  Then once you hit a certain threshold the trainer can say something like "You've been progressing quite well.  I think you should be able to handle multiple lessons at once."  And from then on you can buy up to 5 at a time.

In terms of implementation, whenever you try to buy a skill that's already trained, you can have a pop-up box say something like "You have already received training for this skill level.  Would you like to purchase the next one for XXXXXX tria and YYYY PPs?"  If they say yes, you can have a little indicator next to the progress bar with a "x2" or something.  If they buy more it'll say "x3", "x4", "x5" and each time they level up the number counts down.  Once it hits zero they need more training.

[Raxuss]

If you get rid of PPs, skill training will be more or less unchanged but stat training will be pointless.  Anyone with rich friends or a rich alt can get 400 in all stats in an hour.  That's not how the system is supposed to work.  You're supposed to have to consciously allocate your experience to stats/skills in order to develop your character.  Changing the way stats are raised is an option, but that'll take a LOT more work.  So the whole "just get rid of PPs and everything is better" argument is kinda silly.  It requires so much more work than that.

You are right. I hadn't thought about stats at all.

First thing that comes to mind is to treat them like skills, but I doubt anyone would be comfortable with ranking up stats by doing things that coincide with the stat. Like reading books for intelligence, talking and questing for charisma, fighting for strength, running and jumping for endurance, etc. That would be a large change that'd take forever and need so much processing.

Thank you for pointing that out. That is quite the glaring flaw.


And your compromise for the leveling ranking system that was proposed is something I would be willing to get behind. Start it out later for higher ranks. I mean, I still don't see the complexity as being that big of a deal, but maybe I have too much faith in the human race.

[novacadian]

My wish is simply that while running back and forth across the great expanse of the Dome that all that exercise ends up increasing my strength and endurance. Not to go to a trainer after getting PPs via other means but directly related to the exercise. My boots wear out; why not my muscles get stronger and my endurance increases? That was my wish, not to dis the current system or anything; but simply to add something to it. 

Would the accrual of exp points for the expenditure of physical and  / or mental stamina be an acceptable alternative to you? It would give noobs another way to gather PP beyond beating rats and kikiri. Even if it was only 20 exp points running from Hydlaa to Ojaveda it would at least symbolically add some training value to exercise. Just a thought...

Yeah, that would surely be an easier way to make it happen. The only drawback there is that you could then use those pps for other things. My feeling is that the exercise 'learn by doing' should only apply to certain stats.

This thread has evolved much better than ever expected. To be looking at the very mechanics of levelling is great. If everything could be tailored towards learn by doing that would go a long way to removing the grind. Things would just happen then with the only running around being the activity the player wanted to do.

As to tria for training... that only really affects noobs. When my character was going through a hard phase of that my alt that was training only in smelting would leave gold bricks as offerings on the alter where she would pick them up. The smitty character always had more than enough tria and pps to advance in his smitty skills. The tria part could be taken out of the equation to a great extent. She now always has more than enough tria for training.

It is finally dawning on me that to make PS enjoyable to a large number of players again the entire skill raising system needs to be not overhauled, but remade. This discussion is touching on points to that remaking which is great to see.

[Edit: added more thoughts]

[Rigwyn]

If playing a character and *doing* things causes growth or improvement, then shouldn't *not doing* cause a decline?

[tman]

Riggy, I like the idea in theory, but it punishes people who don't have a lot of time to play, or people that choose to alternate between RP and grinding.  All their progress could get erased just by RPing for a while.

I really like the idea of gaining progress toward stats when fighting, casting magic, running, mining, etc. if it supplements the current method (provides an alternative to paying for training).  If it replaces it, I am vehemently opposed.  Skill grinding is tedious enough.  Stat grinding in addition would be needlessly painful.

[Rigwyn]

I like the idea in theory, but it punishes people who don't have a lot of time to play

That's exactly why I pointed that out.

It does not make sense for my character to become flabby and weak because I (the player) stopped playing that character for a few years. It should not be assumed that because I have not played this character for a year, that this character has been sitting on his ass in some dark corner getting fat and losing his mind... and starving. It should be assumed that my character is silently doing the things he needs to get by.

On the same token, if Nova plays the game 20 hours a day, and I play the game 1 hour per day, does that mean that his character gets 20 times more exercise than my character? 

[tman]

On the same token, if Nova plays the game 20 hours a day, and I play the game 1 hour per day, does that mean that his character gets 20 times more exercise than my character?

Yes.  Because that's how every MMO game has ever worked ever.