Some learn by doing...

[Volki]

If playing a character and *doing* things causes growth or improvement, then shouldn't *not doing* cause a decline?

Yes. There are some games like this. Only hardcore, elitist gamers play them.

No. Most games use "learn by doing". Levels are not deducted because it's not realistic to do so (excluding biological skills like strength).

On the same token, if Nova plays the game 20 hours a day, and I play the game 1 hour per day, does that mean that his character gets 20 times more exercise than my character?

If you're striving for realism... He'd probably die of exhaustion.

[Cirerey]

My wish is simply that while running back and forth across the great expanse of the Dome that all that exercise ends up increasing my strength and endurance. Not to go to a trainer after getting PPs via other means but directly related to the exercise. My boots wear out; why not my muscles get stronger and my endurance increases? That was my wish, not to dis the current system or anything; but simply to add something to it. 

Would the accrual of exp points for the expenditure of physical and  / or mental stamina be an acceptable alternative to you? It would give noobs another way to gather PP beyond beating rats and kikiri. Even if it was only 20 exp points running from Hydlaa to Ojaveda it would at least symbolically add some training value to exercise. Just a thought...

Yeah, that would surely be an easier way to make it happen. The only drawback there is that you could then use those pps for other things. My feeling is that the exercise 'learn by doing' should only apply to certain stats.

After a little thought I realized that it might make more sense for the exertion to gain training points for stats that have already purchased training. Just like skills. It makes things more consistent.

This thread has evolved much better than ever expected. To be looking at the very mechanics of levelling is great. If everything could be tailored towards learn by doing that would go a long way to removing the grind. Things would just happen then with the only running around being the activity the player wanted to do.

As to tria for training... that only really affects noobs. When my character was going through a hard phase of that my alt that was training only in smelting would leave gold bricks as offerings on the alter where she would pick them up. The smitty character always had more than enough tria and pps to advance in his smitty skills. The tria part could be taken out of the equation to a great extent. She now always has more than enough tria for training.

It is finally dawning on me that to make PS enjoyable to a large number of players again the entire skill raising system needs to be not overhauled, but remade. This discussion is touching on points to that remaking which is great to see.

But that gets back to the problem of there being a very limited number of volunteers to do this sort of thing. There is no "rules department" with a staff of full time paid programmers. So what can realistically be done is limited. I do like the thread though. It is an interesting and thoughtful discussion.

[Eonwind]

After a little thought I realized that it might make more sense for the exertion to gain training points for stats that have already purchased training. Just like skills. It makes things more consistent.

this could have been mostly made with the current system but then you would have to grind both stats and skills and I'm sure a lot of people would hate it.

It is finally dawning on me that to make PS enjoyable to a large number of players again the entire skill raising system needs to be not overhauled, but remade. This discussion is touching on points to that remaking which is great to see.

simply put: this is not going to happen.
Remaking the system from scratch would require a lot more resources than we have and after the code has been changed you'd have to change all the data which takes as much as ten times more than it takes to change and test the code.

[Volki]

Keep digging that grave, Eonwind.

[tman]

I actually agree with Eonwind.  People would be pissed if they had to grind stats.  Progress is slow enough already.

The work it would take to overhaul the skills system completely, just to fit your idea of what's "good," is not worth the time.  The skills system isn't what's wrong with the game.  It's the fact that there aren't enough fun things to do with the skills once you have them.  I'd much rather see the devs focus on events, minigames, challenges, etc.  Increase the fun factor instead of just changing the way people grind.

[Raxuss]

People already grind stats. It's the same grind you do when you grind for skills. PP + tria + trainer.

My suggestion would be to leave the stat training as it is, but add the trickle so that stats go up as you RP. Depending on your activities, the stats go up on their own (strength with sword play, intelligence with reading, charisma with talking, etc.).

This way, the grinders can grind and the RPers will have stats that reflect how they RP.

I do not like the idea of a 'reverse effect' with inactivity. But that's just me; from a realistic perspective, that looks great.

simply put: this is not going to happen.
Remaking the system from scratch would require a lot more resources than we have and after the code has been changed you'd have to change all the data which takes as much as ten times more than it takes to change and test the code.

We may have to concede to the fact that something that 'will never happen' might just be the one necessary thing to occur for the situation to improve. Just because we don't have the resources doesn't mean that it isn't the solution.

But I want to hear your suggestions. What can we do, Eonwind, to solve this problem?

[Rigwyn]

I think we should tear out the kitchen out of your house and put the bedroom there. What can we do to make this happen?

[tman]

People already grind stats. It's the same grind you do when you grind for skills. PP + tria + trainer.

This is not the definition of grinding.  Grinding is when you mine for 2 straight hours to rank up one level, or bash 138 trepor skulls in to raise an axe level.  Buying stats is not the same as grinding skills at all.

[Raxuss]

I think we should tear out the kitchen out of your house and put the bedroom there. What can we do to make this happen?

That is not reflective of what I'm suggesting. If it cannot happen, it cannot happen.

But so far, a remaking of the skills seems to be the only solution that has been brought forward. If someone would suggest something that fixes the problem without remaking the skills (both for grinders and RPers), then I would happily get behind it. So far, it's just suggestions getting shot down.

A solution is the goal. If that solution is impossible, it's still the only solution, like it or not.

People already grind stats. It's the same grind you do when you grind for skills. PP + tria + trainer.

This is not the definition of grinding.  Grinding is when you mine for 2 straight hours to rank up one level, or bash 138 trepor skulls in to raise an axe level.  Buying stats is not the same as grinding skills at all.

Oh, I included the money-making and experience-earning in there with grinding. Because especially in early levels, you find yourself grinding more for PP and tria than you are actually grinding for that 'on-the-job' experience.

But if that's not what you are talking about, I apologize. I meant it all.

[tman]

But so far, a remaking of the skills seems to be the only solution that has been brought forward. If someone would suggest something that fixes the problem without remaking the skills (both for grinders and RPers), then I would happily get behind it. So far, it's just suggestions getting shot down.

A solution is the goal. If that solution is impossible, it's still the only solution, like it or not.

Solution to what?  The low player count?  The "problems" with the skill system?  It's not even unanimous that there is a problem with the skill system.

Like I already said...

The work it would take to overhaul the skills system completely, just to fit your idea of what's "good," is not worth the time.  The skills system isn't what's wrong with the game.  It's the fact that there aren't enough fun things to do with the skills once you have them.  I'd much rather see the devs focus on events, minigames, challenges, etc.  Increase the fun factor instead of just changing the way people grind.

[Raxuss]

Solution to making the skills and stats easily obtainable/equally useful to RPers and grinders alike.


And I would argue that your opinion on the 'fun factor' being what's making the game 'wrong' is wrong. I would take to believe that Role Play is the primary source of entertainment and more emphasis on mechanics and lore purely for the RP aspect would 'fix' the game faster than mini-games and events, which the players should be free to conjure up themselves anyway.

But that's just my opinion. I'm really posting to help make my first statement on this post a reality.

[tman]

The "fun factor" bit is for people who grind, either in addition to or instead of RP.  People who primarily RP don't need skill training.  You don't need maxed out combat skills to type "/me slashes at XXX with his/her weapons."

[Raxuss]

Actually, my guild leader and I combat RPed using stats. We gauged the strength of individuals in combat and the effectiveness of attacks and defense based on your skills.

For example, during our battle the enemy cast Flame Burst. I cast it right back. We decided that, because their rank in the Red Way was higher, their Burst would blow through mine, with greatly lessened damage (they were, like, one rank above me in RW).

I speak only for myself onward when I say that use the descriptions of creatures and people, along with my intelligence to gauge how perceptive my character is, to dictate my character's next actions. I will certainly act tough and threaten some meager swordsman with my magic, but will treat Arch-Mages with caution and respect.

Not to mention judging when I should ICly run away or continue the fight.

You are right that stats aren't necessary to RP. But they make the experience far more immersive and realistic if we set those stats as our character's actual boundaries. Needing to work them up through experience and 'living their life' to become better really reflects actual reality.


I have 'more fun' with stats that way. And I'd prefer if RPers were also considered when you want to 'raise the fun factor'.

[Volki]

People who enjoy grinding are in the minority. They make up a good portion of PS's playerbase because grinding seems to be a focal point of this game. They are the few who can stomach the amount of time leveling takes. In any other game, you will rarely find these players. Most players do not enjoy grinding, so they will play games that don't require a lot of it. PS's playerbase is reflective of the issues with the game: there are easily pleased grinders and stubborn roleplayers. No casuals.

You reap what you sow.

[tman]

I have 'more fun' with stats that way. And I'd prefer if RPers were also considered when you want to 'raise the fun factor'.

First of all, I'm not a "grinder."  I train and I roleplay.

If you use stats like this, then what are you complaining about?  Training is hard.  But it's hard for EVERYONE.  If you're comparing skills during your RP, does it matter if one person has 40 and the other has 20, or one person has 120 and the other has 60?  The person with who spent more time training still has the advantage.  The actual numbers don't mean anything ICly.

People who enjoy grinding are in the minority. They make up a good portion of PS's playerbase because grinding seems to be a focal point of this game. They are the few who can stomach the amount of time leveling takes. In any other game, you will rarely find these players. Most players do not enjoy grinding, so they will play games that don't require a lot of it. PS's playerbase is reflective of the issues with the game: there are easily pleased grinders and stubborn roleplayers. No casuals.

You reap what you sow.

I don't know what you mean by "No casuals."  I grind and RP, and pretty much everyone I talk to in game is the same way.

But you're proving my point.  Grinding is boring, but PS mechanics don't offer anything else.  So instead of making grinding easier (which won't make it any less boring, guys...  I don't see why people aren't understanding that) how about making fun things for people to actually DO with the skills they're training?