A Hated System - a good idea.

[Abemore]

A system to keep track of how much a player is hated.

If there is someone constantly being an ass, people can give him Hate Points (or something similar).  When a player accrues enough Hate Points, they will have a visibly different appearance (so people will know not to deal with him), and NPC will react differently toward them (items can cost more, be less friendly, etc.).  This can easily be regulated so one person cannot give another a hundred million hate points.

I imagine the Hated System could work somewhat like the grief system used in the upcoming MMOFPS PlanetSide and detailed here: http://planetside.stratics.com/content/intro/grief_system.shtml

again - this is a good idea *waves hands hypnotically*

[Princess Aelya]

This system could be eisily abused...

[kinshadow]

I like the idea, but (as Aelya ponted out) it is easily abused.  With possibility of 1337 guilds, it could become a common practice for the entire guild to \"hate\" everyone that joins its rivals.  For the system to work, you would have to be hated by the majority of the game (or maby just a LOT of people) before anything bad is done to you.  People would also have to have a limit on the number of people they can hate.

It\'s kind of like a /. mod in a MMOG.
Karma: Good, mostly due to the fact I don\'t grief yo\' l33t @ss!

[Abemore]

another simple way this could be regulated (and I\'d hoped some of you would pick up on this) is by restricting entire guilds from giving one person a hundred million hate points.  If you\'d followed the link on the PlanetSide grief system, you would have seen that \"squads\" (ie. guilds) must police their own members.

In any case, a properly designed system like this might reduce the number of people that play only to ruin other peoples fun.  And a PROPERLY designed system would not be easily abused.

Perhaps guilds could subscribe to their own unique hate system that the general community does not use... any design flaws discovered can easily be fixed.

[kinshadow]

Originally posted by Abemore
If you\'d followed the link on the PlanetSide grief system, you would have seen that \"squads\" (ie. guilds) must police their own members.... And a PROPERLY designed system would not be easily abused.

Actually, Stratics was down when I tried the link.... Regardless of whether formal guilds are restricted from voting the same, non-formal guilds and groups of friends can still do the same thing.  I agree and anti-\'grief\' system would be valuable, but it might be fairly hard to keep the system itself from becoming the grief tool.

Alright, so what is a proper design?  Let\'s reason all this out for a PS relevant system:

How do you keep someone from lying about you and organizing a hate campaign to get you banned?  Would there be \'liked\' points too?  How does someione get rid of unjust points without spamming the GM\'s?  Do points \'decay\' over time?  What other concerns are there?

[Abemore]

I feel like I might have annoyed you. My apologies if I did.  That was not my intention, but I suppose we could continue...

I don\'t think people would listen to someone screaming that joeshmoe is a asshole... its not their concern, nor do they have the proof because joeshmoe could say the same thing back making a stalemate.  And it should take a very large non-formal guild or group of friends to cause a player any trouble.  Hate campaigns can be reported to GM\'s if they get too out of hand.  Another possible safeguard against this is that a player can only be hated so much per hour.  The player wont have access to this hate limit, so he cannot abuse it.  Perhaps you must also be within chat range to send a hate.  

Hate points should decay over time so there is no possibility of organizing a campaign to reduce hate... you\'re stuck with it until goes away on its own.

It is appealing to me to see a player that is universally hated by all.  Banning should not have to be a worry for these people except in the most extreme cases where it affects game enjoyment and there are many complaints made about them.

This system is the equivilant of gossip.  I dont like joeshmoe, I tell everyone including NPC\'s and nobody much cares... 500 people dont like joeshmoe and tell everyone including NPC\'s and people start to believe them and care, and sell at inflated prices... unless perhaps the NPC is not liked himself...

[*Md*]

hey why dont we just make a pk system so if you hate someone you can fight them instead of put them on your hate list... rofl... oh yeah your on my hate list but not like i can do anything about it your just on my hate list lol... am i like the most hated here or what?

[Princess Aelya]

All the truly hated people have not shown up in a long time. so its been pretty peaceful. I wouldnt recommend becoming hated around here though

[*Md*]

Originally posted by Princess Aelya
All the truly hated people have not shown up in a long time. so its been pretty peaceful. I wouldnt recommend becoming hated around here though

I\'m not trying to become hated... people start flame wars over my idea... alright so most here on this forum don\'t like pking... so you have to put me down for trying?

[Princess Aelya]

What people are upset about is the fact that they tell you \"no\" but you persist. That annoys people and therefore makes them dislike you. And besides that, no matter what people says, open PKing will not be in the game. Everyone is sick of telling people that.

[kinshadow]

Originally posted by Abemore
I feel like I might have annoyed you. My apologies if I did.  That was not my intention, but I suppose we could continue...

You have not annoyed me, I\'m just discussing the topic and tying to help you flesh out the solution.  I like your idea, I\'m just trying to find a implementation that is very hard to exploit.

Decaying points might work, but do they decay in game time (while you are playing) or real time (whether your on or not).  At what rate do you think is optimal?  

Would people only have so many points each day?  Do you get more points-a-day as you play the game?  

What about people in the public\'s eye?  Some people would try to \"hate\" someone just because they are a \"visible person.  A good example would the leader of any large organization (formal or not).  People that don\'t get in, would just \"hate\" the leader.  

This brings up another point : Is there some point at which you are immune?  I don\'t know if the game has a seperate \"karma\" system in the game yet, but a good deeds thing (roleplaying wise) could help increase your decay rate.  Perhaps, if you achieve a ceratin number of skill points, your rate increases too (catering to veterans over those who are new to the game).  

Lastly, you mentioned two different effects for your system: physical appearance and inflation of prices.  The prices thing is very \"UO karma\"-like.  What other ways can you see NPCs treating you badly?  Would you be barred from certain places? Attacked on site if hated enough?

[Jessyn]

hehehe, i\'m thinking of the morrowind \"bounty\" system, you get a price oin your head based on what you did.  if you stole a loaf of bread, the guards won\'t actively come after you, but if you slaughter a busload of nuns, they won\'t bother with the fines and jail time, they just try to kill you (of course since most nuns are tougher than town guards for some reason....)

you might try a little of the carrot and the stick - hate points and like points, both of which eventually decay(after like a month real time) but also cancel each other out....

Jessyn

[Abemore]

kinshadow, I\'ve written a small amount of code for PS, but I\'m not a Dev, so it seems meaningless to hammer out all the details of a system that might never make it into the game... but this does seem like a good philosophical exercise

I just figured this would be a very RPG-like element.  It seems common to have those that are universally disliked... people gossip, \"you dont ever want to run into Maddog Smith in an alley\" ... \"this guys got quite a bad reputation.\"  Althought it would be nice to have Like Points (\"everybody likes Tony the Tiger; he\'s great!\"), I can see those being abused more than Hate Points.  It would be beneficial to everyone to have Like Points and everyone would have no problem helping eachother out IMO to get some.  So, I think it would be difficult to have only a Few liked people.  

answers to kinshadows questions:

• while i think game time or real time point decay is a judgement call, I personlly would go with game time.  So a player could go hide out somewhere until people forget how bad he is.
• not sure what you mean by points-a-day... veterans and beginners should have the same number of points possible
• If people would really hate the leader of an organization (even though i dont think they would), then this is an RPG usage of hate points, and that would be a downside to being the leader of an organization.  If someone was immature enough to hate this leader of an org. because he didnt get in, then there is a good chance that he has hated others before, and the leader im sure would just hate him back like the others before him have probably done.  This immature player would eventually develop a hated reputation, and I\'ve just decided that a hated player should not be able to give out Hate Points himself.
• You are never immune... people can change and veterans should not have free reign.  I don\'t know about any other systems in the game (karma?), so i dont know if this system will be able to coexist with the others.  I\'d like for good deeds to help you out and make you liked, but it can too easily be abused.
• as I dont like \"Kill on sight\" ever.  Maybe at the high end guards could disallow you to enter some towns saying, \"we dont want your kind here.\"  Some NPC\'s can maybe refuse service.  Also, general NPC attitude will change toward you in how they speak.  Not to mention players will trust you less, and look at you squinty-eyed.

[azeazezar]

i you would like hate points that are more powerful wen jused les often
but les powerful wen the person gives hate points evry minute

[paxx]

I would like to have a PC version of faction?this would be the equivalent of a hate meter.

How it will work exactly is still up for much discussion, but I figure people will belong to a number of groups, including guilds, professions?and so on. Normally they will use the average of their groups, but at times they may just want to use one list?trying to improve faction on that scale.

Also people you group with for a while and you don?t put on a hate or friends list gain in your personal faction so you might see them as ok while your guild hates the guy.

This would be very complex and have a ton of imperfections, but it would most likely mirror real life as well as any system I have seen.

If you are in pure role playing mode you go with the average, if you want to raise faction in your profession, you use that list to reflect their views?.bla bla bla.

But the big issue is, should you lose faction for grouping with a known evil doer?

If the person is cool with you, but your profession hates him, say you are a blacksmith and he has killed NPC blacksmiths, should you suffer because of that?

There is the issue that is most often debated when we discuss this issue.