Author Topic: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa  (Read 897 times)

Can-ned Food

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Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« on: September 26, 2018, 10:34:20 pm »
Hydlaan guards require you to pocket, holster, or sheath your weapons in public spaces.
They don't do anything about your Glyphs, though.

Now, seeing as how they don't hold your weapons or require anything like that, how would they go about enforcing a similar ban on casting magic?

I have two suggestions for this.  One involves an item, the other does not but is also a tad more complicated.
  • the Ensconcer
    worn on the neck.
    generates a buff which prevents casting any spells that target anyone other than yourself.

    The buff can be explained as a form of skin–tight shell.  A spell shell, if you will.

    When seen by a guard in Hydlaa, the guard performs the same sight–check to see if you are wearing it.  If you are not, the guard demands that you put it on — same as with weapons.
    If you've lost yours, you can explain the situation and buy a new one.  If you have extras, you can return one for a refund of your temporary deposit.
  • Magic Dampening Poles
    A similar result, but the buff is from an area effect caused by being in proximity to certain things like lampposts.  They either prevent spells entirely or prevent them from being cast on others.
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Volki

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2018, 11:51:58 pm »
This sounds like it would make defending the city against monsters more difficult. And self-defense more difficult. And being a guard more difficult.

If you take away the magic, everyone's just going to start killing each other with actual weapons. The number of mages as victims of violent crime is going to skyrocket, too.
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Dilihin

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2018, 06:33:14 am »
Currently, there is absolutely nothing to physically constrain you to take your sword and kill someone in public. It's might be illegal yes, but there is no magic or such to stop it. Why would we need one for glyphs and magic? Doesn't seem to make sense. Wearing some for of enslavement on the neck wouldn't amuse people to be honest. I don't see any reason to ban magic anyway on the cities, how would it really change the current situation to positive?

Can-ned Food

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2018, 12:04:45 pm »
So, yeah, I didn't expect the amulet thing to be a good idea.  I only included it because it was my first thought. :innocent:

The point raised about disabling the magic dampening fields is a good one, too.
As it is, the guards can relax their prohibition of drawing weapons; disabling the fields for each pole would require some command network or actually having a guard present to shut each one down manually — because you couldn't use a spell to do so.

This is all Settings and world behind the simulation, of course.  One could easily automate disabling the poles server–side.

And, of course, yes:  these prohibitions do nothing to quell whatever motivations a person may have for wishing to harm other people inside Hydlaa; they simply require them to be more discreet or cause them to explode in pent–up rage — like in the our world.

So, in the Settings–wise aspect of things, would anyone else agree that the Hydlaan Vigesimi, Amidison, ought have a similar prohibition with regards to magic as with weapons?
That was my initial concern:  the guards make such a fuss about weapons in Hydlaa but say nothing about magic — which can also be used to harm.  And it isn't like magic in the world of Yliakum is something which only few people are able to do:  almost everyone can do it; it is practiced openly, too.

It was then that I thought:  well, they could be able to more easily prevent casting of magic by the using some manner of counter-magic, so would they do so?…

My concern there was this:  it is quite obvious when someone in Hydlaa is wielding their weapon; to use magic, a mage simply makes the hand gestures, maybe says something, and the magic is released.

Yes, a dampening field would also prevent any use of magic for healing and for protection.

Perhaps the only changes necessary would be:
  • an addendum to some of the guards' /say as you walk past;
  • a ensuring that some of the guards, distributed among the others at the gates and those on patrols, are adept at casting magic and with high magical resistance — actually, the Octarchy would probably want all guards to have a high Anti-Magic skill.

All things considered, the reason to prohibit wielding weapons — or magic which inflicts damage — in Hydlaa is simply to help protect new arrivals in Yliakum who possibly have not yet learned how to protect themselves.  The Octarchy aren't restricting access nor ownership of weapons, nor are there any such prohibitions outside Hydlaa.
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Volki

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2018, 08:35:00 pm »
Is there a reason for it? It seems like you skipped the steps that would make this necessary. Now you're putting a lot of effort into thinking up an idea that doesn't logically follow from the settings. It's also more effort on the part of whoever would be coding this.
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Can-ned Food

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2018, 10:44:29 pm »
Who says that I wouldn't be the one to do the work necessary?
Anyway, I'm not sure what confuses you.  I gave the reason:
That was my initial concern:  the guards make such a fuss about weapons in Hydlaa but say nothing about magic — which can also be used to harm.  And it isn't like magic in the world of Yliakum is something which only few people are able to do:  almost everyone can do it; it is practiced openly, too.

I do tend to be long–winded, so I don't blame anyone for missing that.
I didn't put it in the first post because it seemed so obviously inconsistent that you could, in game and apparently therefore in Settings, stand there and cast magic with no reaction from the Guards — but, pull a weapon, and they only then see a threat.

Why have the restriction on weapons, even?

With a weapon, you need to pull it out, and then you can attack.
With glyphs, you could simply stand there, appearing innocuous, and then begin casting a spell.
As it is now, you only hear an sfx when someone begins casting a spell; there is no message.  I don't know if that will change in the future — regardless, I was thinking that guards have little warning that someone is able to cast a dangerous spell.

However, the more I think about it, their reaction time would be about the same as with bows.  Maybe more:  because, if you have a weapon out, you can make a strike; it takes time to cast a spell — and let's say that they can see you doing so.  They could yell out that you cease casting the spell while they run up to you.  If they are near enough, they can get a few stikes in on you while you continue to cast.
 :oops:

So, the more I think about it, there is no need to prevent casting or to confiscate glyphs.

However, the Hydlaan guards either…
  • should be able to distinguish between harmless magic, like healing or curing, and harmful magic.
    Some of this would be interface:  higher magic skill can identify a spell while being cast by another.  Maybe it would require a mage attaché with the guard.
  • are not able to distinguish, and command that citizens cease casting any spells in their sight.
There would be some additional coding here which issues an event, to which NPCs can react, when you begin casting a spell.

Of course, it is entirely beneficial to Settings, because there is no PvP — if there now is PvP, then I missed it.

Well, anyway.  I guess now we wait to hear back on someone involved in the Settings to explain why the there is a prohibition regarding wielded weapons but not glyphs available to the caster.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 10:46:17 pm by Can-ned Food »
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Emaline

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2018, 07:07:23 am »
Cyarara slips in and quietly points out that The Octarchal Decree of 425 AY states, "XXV. No aggressive spells shall be cast inside of the town unless used in the defense of the town."

EDIT:

Quote
There would be some additional coding here which issues an event, to which NPCs can react, when you begin casting a spell.
Uhh, you know that the NPCs by the guards are 'supposed' to be keeping mob NPCs out of the city of Hydlaa, right? You see how well that's working out with the current engine ;)


Quote
Of course, it is entirely beneficial to Settings, because there is no PvP — if there now is PvP, then I missed it.

Yes, there is PvP in the game. There are in fact 3 actual PvP 'zones' that if you are in them you do not have to send or accept a /challenge before initiating combat between players.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 07:11:14 am by Emaline »
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Dilihin

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2018, 11:10:02 am »

Quote
There would be some additional coding here which issues an event, to which NPCs can react, when you begin casting a spell.
Uhh, you know that the NPCs by the guards are 'supposed' to be keeping mob NPCs out of the city of Hydlaa, right? You see how well that's working out with the current engine ;)
It might feel like people say this a lot but it's just something we have to wait for the future, There's so many cool, even maybe even quite easy things to do that could be added but it's just better to wait for the unreal first.

Nebulus

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2018, 02:57:45 pm »
There is much more to Magic in Yliakum than just offensive spells. Messengers and miners use strength buffs to assist in carrying heavy loads to and from storage and to customers. Diviners identifying items with special properties. Crafters enchanting items.
And of course healers at the hospital and elsewhere helping to heal those citizens who have become injured. There are many non-lethal forms of magic and it is so ingrained in the lives of the citizens that this would only detract from the players experiences in Hydlaa. If it detracts from instead of adding to the in-game experience imo it's a negative not a positive for the game.

Can-ned Food

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2018, 07:30:39 pm »
EDIT:
Oops; I missed the other two replies when I composed this.  I'll address them at the bottom, because my responses to them are less important.


There's a difference, however, between being an unpleasant game experience because it differs from what a player wants and being a poorly designed roleplaying game.  In MMORPG design — and not faux–RP MMOGs, of course — you have both the necessities of the simulation and how the designers structured the players' experiences, and interface, so that players are able to smoothly engage with the game's world.

You brought up some good counterpoints which I hadn't properly considered, apparently.
It doesn't really answer this question, though:  Would the Hydlaan guards be so trusting that they'd allow any magic to be practiced anywhere but they don't let people show their weapons openly?
Yes, wielding something which is certainly a weapon is more threatening than someone who appears to be “competent” in the use of magic.

What about restricting healing to hospitals and healers' tents?  Enchanting and divining only in private areas and in shops?  Permitting strength buffs on someone who is obviously carrying, or will be carrying, a heavy load?  (We can't see it inventories, but let's say that the guards can discern the total load someone is bearing.)
That's why I brought up making so that players and NPCs could detect the spell being cast and therefore being able to know whether it is harmful or not, and whether it is dangerous.

I'm not only recommending that something be implemented:  I'm also asking for clarification on the apparent inconsistency.

There's a difference between adding so much detail — or “realism” in some discussions — that it makes a game tedious, and having inconsistencies which detract from the roleplaying experience.  One can result in the other, but they are different things, and you need to consider both of them:
Not implementing something because you don't like the way it affects gameplay then requires you to go back and ensure that the world of the game doesn't suffer from your decision.

Yes, restricting the use of magic would have a larger impact because your character really doesn't need their weapon out in Hydlaa:  you only need to /dequip it once, as compared to restrictions on where you can perform magic.  (Maybe if weapons could be utilized in a /use to interact with things other than during combat, but then you could also expand /use to take arguments like in a text game.)

If the fact that the guards don't care is due to the fact that you cannot cast offensive magic on other players, then that should be explained somewhere.  All it would require, in that case, is a few lines added to the blurts — an unsolicited NPC /say — issued by the guards at the gates and on patrol in Hydlaa.



As to Emaline's reply:  Thanks, I didn't know about that — either PlaneShift didn't have the unmissable floating alerts, as do some other games, which notify you when you cross into a PvP zone, or they were added after I ceased playing for a while.  I'm guessing that the Arena west of Hydlaa is one of them.
Although, now I need to learn something else:  PvP in those zones, but PK?

So, there is a decree, but why don't the guards mention it?  It really seems to me like they should mention it along with the admonition to sheath our weapons which many of them blurt out.
If that's all it takes, then I'd be satisfied with the game-world consistency.  If somebody desires for me to write the changes, then let me know.

And, finally, the reason I bring this up now is exactly because UE4 development  is not yet ready to host a server instance and begin accepting beta-test clients.
I didn't know if something major should be done; if so, now would be a better time than during beta-testing — when it would need to be put off until later — or during the time when PlaneShift is up and running with new users who don't want to suddenly be confronted with a drastic change like restricted magic in Hydlaa!
Of course I considered all this. ::)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 07:44:16 pm by Can-ned Food »
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Migg

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2018, 06:01:31 am »
I have to note that, while the guards will warn a player carrying drawn weapons, they do not prohibit a player carrying weapons from entering the city, even if said player has a weapon drawn in hand. To carry the argument further, there is no mechanism that stops a person from drawing and using their weapons within city walls. There should therefore be no specific mechanism to block the use of magic in a city either. Since actually harming another player is not allowed outside of a PvP area, any offensive action within city limits, either using magic or weapons, is already blocked, so I don't feel like there is something that needs to be improved in that respect.

When it comes to the warning guards produce when a player passes within range, coping with magic stumbles in the action's mechanics: You need to wield a weapon to attack, but glyphs stored in your inventory don't need to be equipped to be used. So the only mechanic that could be added would be detecting the casting of offensive spells. This however has no real benefit, since you can't cast such a spell anywhere a guard may be patrolling: PvP areas don't exist in residential areas.

There does exist a rare chance that a player will attack another after a challenge, but I don't know how guards react in such a scenario. I do believe however that guards should react to a challenge within range, since IC they would be able to spot the hostility and aggression that is the equivalent of a challenge, and would be expected to act in order to prevent the violence about to follow. This would probably be easier to detect and implement in the game's code.

Rigwyn

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2018, 05:28:16 pm »
Just food for thought:

The no swords in town thing came from role players who were tired of some of the immersion breaking nonsense that was happening in the game. They were tired of people trying to fight and rob them in the middle of town right in front of the guards every day. I think to them, it was silly on top of that. While overkill in my opinion, I think the intention was meant to fix that.

Then, the no swords rule became something people shouted at each other just to put them down like this:
   "Put your weapons away. [you dumb noob]."

Does your desire to restrict users from carrying glyphs into the city stem from a problem like this?

In my not-so-humble opinion, this kind of defensive rule making ( make everything safe and bullet proof ) may make sense in real life, but is not so conducive to exciting role play in a RPG type setting ( e,g, The no-so Wild West, or 'Gently tapping nerf swords like gentlemen' .  Again, just opinion.

The standard counter argument to this was "Why can't you guys go to camp banished and do that shit over there." Obviously, that suggestion was quite silly too.

  "Hey Yarl, let's we be bad asses me hearty, and travel out to the empty occ camp and threaten each other with thyne pointy metal objects. "

  "Yo ho ho, Santapwnzer149, me can't do that. We ain't even drinkith ale and slurred Ragnar the Red yet [nub~!]"

Translation: There was no ic reason to go there, and good ooc reason to avoid it.

Good Luck, and Whisper bless!

Can-ned Food

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Re: Restrictions on using Glyphs in Hydlaa
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2018, 11:41:15 am »
Ugh…

Migg, thank you for that information.  I never tested it myself; my characters always had things to do in Hydlaa and never had a reason to test the guards' responses.

Rigwyn, I never said that.  You misread, or didn't read.  In fact, I said quite the opposite:  all of what I was saying was stemming, if you will, from the fact that guards would not confiscate glyphs — nor did I want them to do so.
Thank you, however, for the bit of history.  I guess whoever came up with that idea has decided to avoid this topic — and I don't blame them… sheesh.

So, it seems, to me, that the guards' responses to wielded weapons in Hydlaa was a quick-fix which didn't really have any deeper purpose in Settings nor any proper planning with regards to worldbuilding.

Okay.  I'll take what PlaneShift has to offer until I roll out my own RPG.  One day nearer…

Overall, thank you for the responses.  I now consider this ‘Wish’ negated.
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