PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sirial on February 07, 2016, 03:37:00 am
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Hello All,
some time ago on the gossip channel started a debate about the RPing of the so called bad guys (i.e. rogues, cutthroats and so on), the restrictions to their "work" both ICly and OOCly for the game's sake and the best way to RP them without ruining other players' experience.
As suggested by Gonger I'm here to move the discussion on the forum in the hope to make some "Bad guys" guidelines to the good RP.
What do You think?
Greetings
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Hi Sirial,
thanks for bringing this topic to the forums.
First and foremost, I believe we do need some bad guys to spice things up a bit.
But in the past playing bad guys has often been interpreted as "behave badly and piss people off", or something similar. This is not what we need.
What we do need are villains with style, class and verve. Villains with a plan they are pursuing, villains who can accept that others will work against them, and adapt to this, also accepting when parts of their plan went wrong.
The best example is the Kor Neka Mansa RP, that went on over months, and hopefully will be picked up again. I mean, Paajah is still on the run, and probably still has an ace or two up her sleeve.
A negative example is the annexation of the Platinum Mine by the Stillwater guild. This had great RP potential in the beginning, but it finally was wasted when some of the Stillwater members only took it as an occasion to kill off as many players as possible, without RPing it at all. (The mine was a PVP area at that time.)
But there is also the problem of how people would react to acts of mischief, to being robbed and blackmailed. Maybe we can find some way of indicating that a character would agree to RP with bad guys. Or just make some kind of rule that agreement / permission should be taken before engaging in acts of mischief.
It will be very interesting to read what others think about bad guys in PlaneShift...
Greetings,
Gonger
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This is just my two cents.
Figure out if you are looking to role play or to pvp. The rules will be different depending on which way you go. Never mix the two.
If you are looking to role play, then just make sure that you keep the character and player well separated. Always treat fellow players as you would friends, but feel free to let your character be a complete bastard towards their characters. Yes, be nice your friends while your character abuses their character liberally. If you do it in an entertaining way, it probably won't be interpreted badly.
It's important that fellow players understand character/player separation. If they do not get this, then they are going to have a hard time coping with your character.
Good luck, and Whisper bless!
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As someone who does not like to PvP I have some concerns and questions on how this would work.
Concerns:
Gear gets all beat up.
Loose all the stuff I have worked hard to get (mine, fish, gather, farm drops...).
The person will kill me and take all my tria and I am left to the Death Realm taking away my game play time.
So with that the following questions:
How can someone opt out if they have no desire to participate.
If I did decide to participate would they get everything or a token 10 tria or something trivial so as to not make a financial incentive for them to do so.
Would a victory be declared at a certain health percentage like what is stated in the PvP guide?
Would this happen anyplace or only in the wild?
What are the repercussions for someone who does not follow the rules set?
I understand some people like this aspect of play and I do not wish to dictate to them how to play and enjoy themselves I just want to preserve what I like as well.
looking forward to the suggestions
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It is much better to rp a robbery than to PvP and if the victim doesn't want to play along there is no rp.
As a robber, I wouldn't expect more than a few circles from a victim and if they were a poor new player even that would be RPed.
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I agree on the fact that a robbery taking place IC via RP (in case of a previous agreement) is a very good way to make a bad guy, moreover is my opinion that the possibility to make duels via RP and/or fighting is good leaving both parts the choice to participate or not in it, personally I would like to see more RP duels instead of the camping near PVP areas just to be able to kill someone passing by for his own tasks.
The chance to surrender during a duel is a very good way to get out of it without too much damages.
About the bad guys i would like a more strict distinction between the mastermind and the simple rascal, RPed accordingly to the character.
Obviously the problem with the bad guys is much more linked to the fact that players take the single aggression OOCly, this doesn't mean that someone can prosecute someone else just to annoy the player.
Even when there is no agreement between the parts a well RPed "bad guy" can pursue his activity if the other doesn't act in a way to prevent it (i.e. moving toward guards when in the city or running away when in the wilderness) but it's needed that the bad guy's RP starts much long before the other one.
An example:
B= Bad guy (Bandit in this case)
T= Traveller
Setting= wilderness, day, plain view
Incipit "B sees the traveller passing along the road and thinks he has found his next victim"
B carefully studies the target while slowly moves to approach him
-If T after looking at B (i.e. reading his desc) and hopefully receiving a /tell decides to flee than
T feels like being followed (or feels observed) and begins to look around while accelerating his own pace
Now B can decide to pursue the following or give it up...
-if T after looking at B (i.e. reading his desc) and hopefully receiving a /tell decides that B is not dangerous or doesn't think that the risk is too high
T continues through the road relaxed...
Obviously this is just an example but it's my opinion that a bad guy has to make his own RP according to the character, always respecting the other and his tasks (perhaps the traveller is going to a place inside the bandit area of action so he should /tell him about his needs)
I hope to have been clear enough
Greetings
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It takes more to be evil than just to act like mad.
Did I write that before?!... ;)
Playing an evil character may require some more strategy, and sometimes even OOC conversations to ensure that IC actions are understood in the correct context.
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Oh well about the "Evil" character I totally agree with you, but not every "bad guy" has to be evil, they could just act that way because IC they had grown up having nothing but their pickpocketing skills to survive so now they doesn't know any other way to survive or their reputation is so bad that returning to the Lawful side of society would be impossible.
The shades of someone's alignment are much more than the classical 9 (Lawful good, chaotic neutral and so on), imho a well RPed character need a consistent past for other to discover, if we relate only to the classical concepts we could end having just flat chars living the moment without evolving.
This means also that a bad guy may have a code of honour or just be the most sick bastard you will ever met, as long as everything is kept IC (OOC everyone should act honourably trying to avoid to ruin the experience of the other players).
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One day estaga was making bows over at the rogues camp on ojaroad1 because it was conveniently located to the resources used (wood and couchgrass). While she was there, some "bad guy" came by and made her pay her finest bow for the privilege of working there. The RP during that time was... FREAKING AWESOME!! :-D
Anyway, every once in while estaga will show up there just to see if the rogue "bad guy" is there again... but she comes prepared with some tria to pay the rent on the table now... ;-)
(ahem, bad guy... you know who you are)
Anyway, that particular location is, IMO a gold-mine type of location for "bad guy" interactions that don't necessarily have to turn into PVP. Extortion, blackmail, theft, bullying (especially if done well) would be completely IC for someone who would happen to play in that area. There are probably other areas that would lend themselves to similar kinds of situations (the store houses in Oja ?)
On another day, estaga was on her way into the arena, she goes there to collect clacker legs for making bow strings, make bows, sometimes to cook, or buy fish glue. On this particular day, another "bad guy" (see guard notes in another thread) intimidated estaga into leaving in a hurry... his last words were something like 'now SCRAM!!'. Again... a well played and unexpected "bad guy" to run into.
These are just two examples of what I found to be rather interesting situations to RP in. I submit them for consideration in your deliberations on how/when/etc to be a good "bad guy" and hope to see a bit more in the future.
That being said, "bad guys" need not abound in any given society there are always that 10% (or so... ) who don't quite fit the societal mores... if suddenly 80% of the PS population became "bad guys", that would take some of the fun out of playing... but a well placed one here and there...
- estaga
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People are sensitive.
Playing a bad guy is a lot more work.
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People are sensitive.
That's true, but is not possible to want a RPing community without taking every aspects of the society, if everyone will RP only people holding hands and jumping around this will likely kill the RP imho.
And even if people are sensitive they need to learn the distinction between IC and OOC, or even better between the character and the player.
The RPs mentioned by Estaga are a brilliant example of what it takes to make "bad guys" RP, thank you Estaga for sharing.
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Edited to prevent spoilers. Ball is in motion.
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That would be a really great idea, the bad would need some companions though, that would make a great group RP for both the parts
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So I was talking with someone lastnight about player made quest and a suggestion was a merchant needing help moving supplies to another town. I think this would be a great opportunity for one type of bad guy/gal roleplays. Anyone interested?
A character by the name of Neraden had the very same idea a short while ago, but he has not been seen recently...
If several people have the same RP idea, it is often a good sign, so do keep working on it.
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Contact me OOCly if you need baddies. ;)
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I was thinking one person ea side to be in on it (like know the route to be taken) the rest is all ad-lib. Its not my thing so whatever you think works.
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People are sensitive.
And even if people are sensitive they need to learn the distinction between IC and OOC, or even better between the character and the player.
Sensitive people rule communities.
Sensitive people ruin communities.
Being sensitive is used as a defense for trampling on other people's creativity.
I think that if your character is going to try to rob another character, then just do it. It's not inconsiderate. You're playing a character. They're playing a character. In a game. By refusing to interact with your character who is trying to rob theirs, they are doing the absolute worst thing a roleplayer can do. It's even worse than godmoding because they are pretending that your character doesn't exist.
Why would you play this game if you don't want to interact with other players? It's an online game! Why would you play this game if you don't expect bad things to spontaneously happen to your character? It's a roleplaying game!
If you don't like it, then
LEAVE
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A
V
E
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so with that what happens when the would be robber is overpowered and captured and sentenced for atemped robbery, murder, .... Week, month ban from playing? part of playing and losing?
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I have to agree with Aniroho on this one. People have trouble separating IC and OOC, sometimes to the point of absurdity. I've been reemed out OOCly many a time sheerly because my character took a stance that opposed another character's. People are not constantly going to be polite in reality, and forcing characters to be so invents an environment of sterility that causes a boring sort of stagmenting. We need more villains, but more than that, we need more character types. Rude. Cowardly. Annoying. Silly. Weird. I'd like to see some folks have ideological arguments, or get into a fistfight in the bar because of some disagreement or other.
I wouldn't say people should just leave the game. Since the non RP server and RP server's merging there are bound to be some people who simply aren't on PS to role play. Just put a disclaimer in the description or something.
Oftentimes I've found the more complex characters, the "broody" or seemingly troubled characters, have a more meaty story to dig into. I want to see that return.
You have every right to request a person be respectful of you OOCly. That is a given. There is no right to demand a character be so ICly. If your character chooses to ignore such an individual, that would make sense. But too often "good guys" take to gossip and refer to any person who tries to stir up just a smattering of IC antagonism as a "troll." They demean the person's worth as a role player repeatedly and then wonder why, suddenly, there are no antagonists left to stand against. If you want to demean, live it through your character. Saying the individual player is just like their character is like saying an actor must be a douche because he played as one once. (Of note: a player who's acting out a character who is abrasive should be prepared to have some characters ICly walk away from or avoid them. So long as this is IC, there's nothing wrong with that; it's more a natural progression.) To clarify this isn't the same as outright ignoring someone attacking you. Flee, fight or call for help, but don't pretend they aren't there.
Ultimately, folks just need to learn to compromise. As someone who's played as good and bad and everything in between, this has always been the best way. Talk it out if something gets tangled or something is seriously disturbing you, but otherwise, just go with the flow. You'll be surprised to find that most of the folks playing as villains are entirely reasonable, and I've had incredibly few over five years who have refused to hear me out.
Feas: in that event the "villain" would have to deal with the consequences. It wouldn't be through banning; a ban implies the player has done something out of line with the rules, not the character, but in the past they have been imprisoned for some length of time.
Relevant: this text can be found in the game under the /show help tab, when clicking on ROLEPLAY:
(http://i.imgur.com/KRnpCMt.jpg?1)
I'll mirror what Jilerel said. If anyone has need of rogue-like characters for some event, give me a poke.
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so with that what happens when the would be robber is overpowered and captured and sentenced for atemped robbery, murder, .... Week, month ban from playing? part of playing and losing?
Excellent question. I'll make this whole thing incredibly easy to understand.
When your read a book, the characters in the book are just characters. They are not real people. What happens if in a story, a bad guy stabs an innocent person to death? Do we arrest the author, break her hands and throw away her favorite pen? No. That would make no sense because we would be punishing the author for something their character did. Said author would probably not care to write fiction under such circumstances.
This is where character/player separation comes into play. As players, we are WRITERS. We are writing a collaborative fictional story staring our characters. Our characters are not tokens that represent us (the writers), but rather they are actual characters like Neo from The Matrix or Homer from The Simpsons. In The Matrix, Neo is not a placeholder or token that represents the author, rather he's his own unique character.
Lastly, the story that our characters are participating in has nothing to do with our personal lives. It's completely unrelated. It's as if they are all in this fish bowl that's isolated from the real world. What happens in the fish bowl stays in the fish bowl. And what is outside of the fish bowl stays outside of the fish bowl.
When we write, we decide what we think our characters would do in various situations, what they would say, or how the things happening to them might change them. To do this, you need to define who and what your character is, what their personality is like, and so on. When you have this figured out to a fairly reasonable degree, it becomes a lot easier to know how your character would react to things.
If confused about player character separation, then pick up a fictional book and read it cover to cover with this new perspective in mind.
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so with that what happens when the would be robber is overpowered and captured and sentenced for atemped robbery, murder, .... Week, month ban from playing? part of playing and losing?
If you're roleplaying a bad guy and you're caught in the act of braking the law by GMs Guard characters (GMs may sometimes play bad guy NPCs as well) you will pay ICly for breaking the law. This mean your character maybe put into jail for sometime or asked to pay a fine. Please note these are all IC actions, it's not an OOC punishment, in fact your character (even if enforced in prison for sometime) may still roleplay with someone coming to pay a visit, etc. In extreme cases where the crime is extremely serious the character will have to sustain an in game IC trial (like it has happened during the KNM roleplay).
You will not be banned from the game for roleplaying a bad guy unless you break the game policies.
Happy bad-guy roleplay :)
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Eonwind I have a question related with the imprisonment, your statement is true even if the RPing happens out of the cities without guards around?
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Sirial, it is quite possible that you might attack a guard that is looking for you or that the guards set a trap for you if you like to rob your victims in the same area. Gonger and the Bounty Hunters are ones to consider, also.
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Oh thank you!
My question was just to be sure about it.
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Eonwind, thank you. that is exactly what i was wondering. Where is the jail? Can we go there to see if anyone is in jail at any time to leer at them?
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Eonwind, thank you. that is exactly what i was wondering. Where is the jail? Can we go there to see if anyone is in jail at any time to leer at them?
The jail is in the courthouse complex, up the ramp and turn left.There are others, also, but have not known them to be used, like the one in the arena.
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The jail is in the courthouse complex, up the ramp and turn left.There are others, also, but have not known them to be used, like the one in the arena.
The jail near the Courthouse has been used for RP purposes, for example the questioning of one of the members of Kor Neka Mansa. It was great fun, and an appropriate setting.
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Stop already to want evil RPs and charismatic antagonists. Currently, evil RP can only be played in small private groups.
I propose some solutions, do whatever you want with these. I precise, to not offend anyone, that I don't have the prentention to say that my solutions are the best and should be applied.
First : Strict RP rules. No more people whining "omg that's not in the rules, so we can't do that", no more "omg you're godmodding", and a clear separation between IC and OOC. And enforcement of RP by sanctions.
I don't want to have to say [Hey, I'm a rogue, and I'm going to steal some of your valuables. Don't worry, it will have the consequences you want to have, and no definitives ones, except if you want it. It will also don't take much of your time, I guarantee it. Thanks !] every time I want to rob someone.
What rules ? Well, not refusing a RP scene. If you avoid it OOCly, you get sanctionned. Some exceptions such as PG18 scenes, and true death scenes, of course.
Also, whining OOCly. If it stayed IC, and in the rules, you don't have to complain OOC.
If you're interested in some strict RP rules, I could write some more that could fix a lot of problems with the current RP I guess.
Second : Separate RPers and Non-RPers. I'm getting tired of saying "Hello" and the man just runs away after having talked to the NPC in front of me.
Third : Being able to hide its name. When you speak your name is translated to a "code", this code can be used by GMs to know your nickname, but only them can know it.
It would help keeping anonymacy and help against OOC ranting in scene.
Volki said it.
Sensitive people rule communities.
Sensitive people ruin communities.
Being sensitive is used as a defense for trampling on other people's creativity.
I think that if your character is going to try to rob another character, then just do it. It's not inconsiderate. You're playing a character. They're playing a character. In a game. By refusing to interact with your character who is trying to rob theirs, they are doing the absolute worst thing a roleplayer can do. It's even worse than godmoding because they are pretending that your character doesn't exist.
Why would you play this game if you don't want to interact with other players? It's an online game! Why would you play this game if you don't expect bad things to spontaneously happen to your character? It's a roleplaying game!
If you don't like it, then
LEAVE
E
A
V
E
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"Second : Separate RPers and Non-RPers. I'm getting tired of saying "Hello" and the man just runs away after having talked to the NPC in front of me."
One should understand that a new player may not even know that you said anything to them as the dialogue from the NPC may have moved it out of the chat window.
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By separating, I should have had written. Imagine a little checkbox "RPer". When you check it, your nickname is in another color. When you uncheck it, another.
And bang, new way to see who to ignore or not in RP scene.
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By separating, I should have had written. Imagine a little checkbox "RPer". When you check it, your nickname is in another color. When you uncheck it, another.
And bang, new way to see who to ignore or not in RP scene.
I played my first year on EZPC, the non-roleplay server, and even after coming over to Laanx and creating Waesed, it took awhile to get into RP. Keep trying, as Herihi did with me, and you might get somewhere.
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Nice and interesting topic that is close to my hart!
... and also one that I have been struggling with my whole PS live! ... I have been thinking about how I should play my role in PS for years now. It is hard to play a bad guy is a butterfly-we-all-hug-eachother world.
As chief of the Prophets of Chaos I have been 'involved' with hundreds of robberies over the years... Also been part of the great guild wars, have been camping on PvP spots many times (sometimes out of frustration that RP-ing a bad char if simply harder ;-) ).
One of the reasons we lost a lot of players was to split bad RP- 'bad chars' from good RP 'Good chars' hence the appearance and death of the ez.. server and basically the death of "Bad chars" from PS ...
...from this period onwards i am living with a split personality....
Bad RP-ers aren't bad purse and can learn too. First of all for me personally when I started, I did not type quickly, I had a crappy old computer and by the time I had a reply ready I had to read through again 3 beautifully constructed sentences which made my badly constructed sentence obsolete. So I figured a robber would fit me as it was less typing... :devil:
I love PvP and I think when you do a robbery if sucks to do it RP-wise only what's the point of having skills beats me otherwise... so I stopped doing it. RP-ing you are a very strong and quick while your PS skills are not if bad RP in my opinion. Would you expect from a robber to behave and talk politely and wait with patience till its opponent starts talking two sentences a second? This simply does not make sense. If I hold my sharp axes aggressively to someone's throat in a quick and swift way this player, if it has normal senses, would not talk so much and be scared to death and drop anything it has. This is unfortunately not happening most of the time.
"Good guys" do not easily accept defeat and try to RP there way out that's simply playing badly a "Good char"! How can you choose to ignore RP on an RP server? That's just nonsense. If you are about to be robbed there is nothing you can do about it as mostly these are surprise attacks out of the blue. You cannot just run though a blockade either ... "Good chars" should play along or (and here is my motto:)
"Good Chars" do bad RP too like Volki said...
One thing I would love to see in PS is everyone's skills so you cannot RP around it. If you meet IRL a robber you'd be pissing in a corner without any word and do what he instructs you to do. PS is more than just RP you are bound to your skills
... perhaps it is time I put my potions in the closet for a while and concentrate more on the bad part of my personality I almost forgot ;-)
Sliss
(btw.... the other personality has become my alter ego Striker although he is strictly not good either, naturally, he pretends to be good for you...)
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Robberies and fights can be great RP-wise, if all parties are on the same page. Camping and waiting for noobs to run by so you can kill them, on the other hand, can be viewed as if it isn't even roleplay - especially if nobody even emotes. Personally, I prefer to spend my time in PS roleplaying instead of grinding out stats, but there's definitely room to incorporate PvP for those who like it.
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I find this to be a very interesting topic, especially as my character is rather grey in some areas.
This is a complex issue, with several sides, and which may never have a satisfactory answer for all - it is physically impossible to get that kind of outcome.
Some of the ideas here, such as making the sewers and outside the cities bad guy friendly could be a very good idea, if implemented properly. Making it harder for new players to get about, explore and experience Yliakum would be a very bad idea. If this idea is to be used, we have to consider how it would effect new players, the ones who rejuvenate the game. I know that if I had had to interact with other players too quickly, or too violently, before I even had a chance to get the know the game, I would have probably quit, too put off by something I didn't quite get yet. Just letting someone know before hand, or even just picking your victims well should help in that regard.
On the other hand I can sympathise with not wanting to have to ask and break the story to play out your character.
Something that could happen would be to have areas were villainy is common and for players to WARNED ABOUT IT before hand, somehow, say signs or in the tutorial etc - digression of devs team. And also to incorporate a previous idea, something in the colour of a name that lets people know if you have been a member for very long or not - so that you can tell when you are about to jump somebody who has know idea of what they are doing. The idea of a check system that lets others know if you want to rp is quite unwieldy, i think, as when I had my first interaction with another player, I didn't know if I wanted to or not and it is only through the interaction itself that I discovered I wanted to. Having that check in place could stop players from interacting with someone who is new, and was unsure, so they just ticked a box. Then, because they don't know if they like the whole game AND the other players - we could be losing people for something arbitrary. There is also the hassle of changing the check box which could be very frustrating. Say you forget and go somewhere expecting an rp and you get ignored for it - problems abound.
What ever may happen, we can't expect to make everyone happy - but we have to try.