RCD

[Damola]

First off: Get well soon cdmoreland!

Hello,

I have been pointed to this thread by a GM. And I am quite a bit surprised by it. No one ever attempted to contact me in game about it. Now Cairn started a thread and nobody informed me about it with some PM. I think its not so much of a secret that cdmoreland and I are players to talk about regarding Den´s matters. And people did. Through another member of the RCD team who is not member of Family or Ad Lib guilds someone even held an event there. Even during my absence.

I opened the Den´s twice in August, one time with only three people and yesterday with quite a crowd. I pondered opening it more often, but often I just saw less than 20 players around.

I am not fixed to the idea of having the Den´s fixed to a guilds name. In the last months in my perception I have been the only one openening anyway. My real life has been quite full and I am happy to share organization and opening the Den´s with others. I have always been told by GMs that it would be possible to get more keys in case there are interested people. It can be an RCD team spread over mutiple guilds, I don´t care about guild association in this.

Just truth it, I gave keys out to some people, two even not in my guild. Yet, as for care for the Den´s as far as I am aware currently I am the only one opening it at all. I received some help here and there, but not right now, at least not on a regular base.

As for opening it completely? Once a theft stole a lot of stuff from the Den´s. Also not all items in the Den´s are locked. Sure we can have everything locked, even the decoration we change from time to time. And sure we can have the place monitored by GMs like any other public space. Sure we can have locked containers with a set of keys, with the currently stored items we´d definately need a set of 5-7 keys or one key for several containers tough. It would feel like a quite locked down place to me. Right now I find it more easy to just lock the door to have the place safe.

Additionally also during the redecoration efforts and the preparations for the delicacy contest back then the RCD received a full blown kitchen with alchemy stuff as well. This is cleary *only* for RP, *not* for leveling as per requirements of the Octarchy (dev & GM team). If the place is completely open someone will have to watch its usage at all times.

On any account I would have preffered if anyone of you who want the Den´s be unlocked to at least give cdmoreland or me a shout. Starting a thread behind my back and expecting me to find it myself is not what I consider as appreciation for the efforts I, the RCD team and the GMs put into the place. For me having a group handle the Den´s I have also seen as a way to offload some responsibility off the GMs. I feel responsible for the place and thats why I cared about it and its not opened all the time.

I intend to discuss with first with the GM who notified me about options to restructure the care for the Den´s, but by no means this ever has been a closed group effort.

So is there anyone who seriously wants to step up sharing the care for the place with me and what is left of the original RCD team? No one who requested having it open at all times in this thread ever contacted me about it. For me that isn´t a sign of care and commitment. Yes, I am seriously asking about people who want to devote *some* time to it. ICly. I am not even asking about a fixed time commitment, just a I will open it some times in a month and update the bar log about it would be fine for me. Also if you want it for an event, ask me or cdmoreland. The place is generally available for rent within the boundaries of its RP purpose. Even in my absence, if I can trust some other player taking care of the place for the duration of the event.

[Cairn]

Hey Damola

Thanks for the reply, good to hear from you. I started the thread because that seemed like the easiest thing to do. Not in an attack or what have you.

I think the best thing at this point is to open it up. We're aware of the theft from the den, but that can be dealt with easily by locking down what needs to be locked down or simply removing items and having others bring them in for the RP.

IF you would prefer to have a guild attached to take care of it, please don't hesitate to let me know.

Nor is this going behind your back whatsoever! We never once stated we didn't appreciate your efforts, or bashed you in this thread. We're appreciative of what you've done, truly.  It's rather a request to see it open, and I hope that you can see it as such.

Thanks.

Ultimately we want the players to have the last say. What was good for the game once may have changed now, and we ought to respect and be aware of that. We wish for everyone to have a good time, first and foremost!

[Rigwyn]

Sorry about that. I wasn't trying to get this taken away from you, Damola, and didn't realize that you were actively running this. It's still good to discuss and address though.

The problems that I see with this are:

1. Visually, the Den always looks closed. If you try to open the door several times and find that it's locked each time, eventually you will give up and ignore it. I think this lack of visual indication as to whether it's closed or open is sort of discouraging. We brought this issue up in the past, but it didn't get anywhere.

2. There is no (IC) way to knock and see if anyone answers. Yes, you can send someone a tell ( ie. /tell x knock knock ), but if you don't know who to send it to, then you are out of luck. This is less of a problem for players who are familiar with the RCD scene, and more of a problem for the new player.

Perhaps you folks just leave the door open now when it's open, I don't really know. When we used to run it years ago, it was always locked and entry was controlled by whoever ran it. ( I'm not really in favor of that idea either, but we had a lot of jerks around back then, so it was a reasonable though unfortunate compromise at the time.)

[Prreta]

The problem I see is that RP is spontaneous. If it starts to happen and you want to move it to a suitable place, you need that place open right then. not tomorrow at that time.

And it needs to not be stopped because someone else has to (reasonably) leave because they have work the next day. We are from all different time zones and we all know full well that scheduling is a nightmare.

Also if the place is always or frequently opened, then it will be frequented. Twice in one month is not frequent.

[Damola]

Sorry about that. I wasn't trying to get this taken away from you, Damola, and didn't realize that you were actively running this. It's still good to discuss and address though.

The problems that I see with this are:

1. Visually, the Den always looks closed. If you try to open the door several times and find that it's locked each time, eventually you will give up and ignore it. I think this lack of visual indication as to whether it's closed or open is sort of discouraging. We brought this issue up in the past, but it didn't get anywhere.

I think in the last months only Damola opened it, and she made it pretty obvious that she did. Shout in main and post in gossip as well. But I am open to other suggestions. I already received the idea of having a sign open/closed at the Den´s. Also with a note whom to contact for opening it.

So maybe you are just in a different TZ than me?

And just to avoid any misunderstandings: There have been people in RCD team in the past commiting time to the RCD and I appreciate their efforts deeply. Yet, as life outside of PS can have demands… a larger team for the RCD? Yay! I never posted in the forum about that I am open for more RCD team members, maybe that contributed the impression of a closed group, which it never was.

2. There is no (IC) way to knock and see if anyone answers. Yes, you can send someone a tell ( ie. /tell x knock knock ), but if you don't know who to send it to, then you are out of luck. This is less of a problem for players who are familiar with the RCD scene, and more of a problem for the new player.

As currently only Damola opens it, you can send her a tell. But yeah, I really welcome other players who commit to open it at least some times in a certain time span. Also from different TZs. I do not ask about a firm commitment on a certain time, cause I know its difficult to fit in full life beyond PS schedules.

Also when we open it, the door is just open. As for other suggestions, feel free to share constructive ideas.

Perhaps you folks just leave the door open now when it's open, I don't really know. When we used to run it years ago, it was always locked and entry was controlled by whoever ran it. ( I'm not really in favor of that idea either, but we had a lot of jerks around back then, so it was a reasonable though unfortunate compromise at the time.)

Yes, we just open it. But as Dannae did it, we also shout it out. In the last month I think only Damola opened it, and except for once where she RP´d opening it silently and finding out whether someone notices, she shouted it out every single time.

I am not sure whether unlocking the place 24/7 is the way to go. RCD is not the Kada El´s. But I am more than open to include people of different guilds into the team and I am also keen for suggestions on how cooperation between players of different TZs can work. But please also show willingness to learn how the place became what it is today and that it is a delicated balance between the RCD team and the Octarchy (read GM and developer wishes). I think any evolution of the place needs to take this balance into account.

I will discuss options with a GM, so please feel free to offer constructive ideas on how the place can be open more often for meaningful RP.

Some aspects of the current balance of the RCD are:

1) There is an accountable player the GMs trust and can contact about all matters regarding the RCD. Currently this is cdmoreland and me. I think in the last time it was mostly me.

2) The kitchen is only for RP purpose, not for leveling. This is a hard requirement that needs to be ensured for the Den´s. Its the condition on which we have been able to actually have the kitchen in the Den´s at all.

3) There is a ton of beverages and foods and other things stored in the RCD in quite some containers. Having 5 to 10 separate keys for those would be highly impractical. Maybe several locked containers can be used with one key?

4) Also sometimes there have been events and I already have ideas for a new event, just my life beyond PS is quite full. Also I sure hope for more events in the place and there are some rough ideas here and there. The RCD is not open for anything else except the event during those times.

5) Also important: I think due to the past RP the RCD is shaped into a certain way. It may not be open for just about anything. At least not as long as Damola is in the RCD team in a central role. I think I would rather let go of the place than to have Damola deal with it becoming a completely different thing altogether. Damola tried to shape it into an open and peaceful place, a place to hide away in from concerns of the daily life in Yliakum. She also started offering foods and drinks for free for those in need and tried to bring in more Kran as well with limited success. Due to Kabitar´s influence and the delicate deliveries of several chars, the menu cards by Mishka the place also is not just about being a bar, but also a place where one can eat delicate foods. Thus for an ideal opening there would at least be a bartender and a cook, while of course the place can also be opened with just a bartender. So while the new hospital is not an arena, the RCD is just not about any RP and anything, but about a certain setting. Of course I am willing to take into account ideas for the purpose of the RCD and also description of current RCD team members and past players who drove the place. But I am not okay with having the place be just totally arbitrary and random. If there is a group of players who want to have a totally different place, than the current RCD team, I think it may be wise to have more than one RCD with different teams .

Thats just some initial thoughts on this from my and Damola´s point of view. There may be more aspects also from other RCD team members or past runners of the place.

And there are your ideas. What are they? What are your, preferably constructive and creative (instead of destructive) ideas on evolving the RCD? Of course this goes to all of you.

And now its really sleeping time for me.

[Rigwyn]

I think an Open sign or illuminated windows ( ie candle/lantern inside windows ) would be a neat idea, but only if it could be turned on or off manually via user action. ( ie. a switch/lever that is activated with a door key perhaps). There would likely be times where you want the den to be closed and appear to be closed while you have private/secret meetings inside and other times when it is open and definitely looks open too. At least with a feature like this, those who walk by could tell by looking at it that it's open.

As for more staff, I think it really takes a rare type of player. This means sitting inside and working a shift. I don't think most players would care to do that or have enough spare time to commit to it.

As for knocking, maybe having a button on the outside of the den that automatically makes "knock knock" (or something like that ) appear in main for those who are inside the den might help?

I don't think there are a lot of good answers.

[Ascomanni]

I think the use of the public forum was to generate a public discussion on the matter in, oh say, a forum style where all people interested, including you, could contribute to the discussion. It also seems to have worked as many people have shown interest.

[cdmoreland]

While it is true that I haven't opened the Den for some time I did have it open several days during the week and no one was there after the first couple of weeks. I shouted in Main and Gossip.

Waesed and Ellis may not excite rp but no one else has stepped forward to help. I did ask for help in the forum and got no response. I even asked when people want it open and I can do that but, again, no response.

[Damola]

While it is true that I haven't opened the Den for some time I did have it open several days during the week and no one was there after the first couple of weeks. I shouted in Main and Gossip.

Waesed and Ellis may not excite rp but no one else has stepped forward to help. I did ask for help in the forum and got no response. I even asked when people want it open and I can do that but, again, no response.

While I didn´t use the forum to ask for help, Damola always was open and I, Kabitar and Sulaika, I gave her a key despite she not being with Family guild, even actively looked for players in the game to help with the Den´s.

I think that is an important thing to talk about, also as Rigwyn noted about a rare kind of players willing to spend several hours to open the Den´s with unclear outcome of how many guests will attend. But on the other hand I think this is what makes the Den´s so special as well. There is someone opening it and holding a certain space during the time. In an NPC tavern as long as no GM watches, you can basically do anything. You could attack each other and be hostile to each other in any snse you wish. But at least for Damola I can say that if you tried this, she would certainly step up. On the other hand Damola based a lot on trust. She trusted the guests to be willing to contribute to the space she created and never actively asked for a guard. She would have accepted one, but not if the guard stands tall and with full weapon and armor watching the guests all the time.

In my full life I find it difficult to commit to a certain time each week, cause my time commitments outside of PS do not adhere to that. Yet, I think its important for members of the RCD team to show some committment. I always documented almost every public opening in the Bar Log. For me, if the team is large enough even just a tiny commitment to open it once or twice every month would be enough. If there are enough team members, also from different time zones the Den´s I think would be open often enough.

Also I think that it is sometimes closed also contributes to the experience and the value of the place. I do think simply opening it 24/7 without any rules whatsoever would at least destroy a part of what the Den´s currently is. It would change the purpose of the place.

One challenge with a large team may be: As long as the setting is that there are one or two accountable players who GMs trust and can talk to, those trusted players themselves need to trust all the other RCD team members. I currently trust every one of the RCD team members, but thing is, aside from Damola, none of that members are currently active with the Den´s. Likely for good RL reasons, maybe for other reasons. I am willing to ask some of those players about it, as I even have mail addresses for some of them.

Giving more keys can always work, but asking a key back for a team member who is not active anymore is not so much of a fun task, if you ask me. But maybe at some point there needs to be some rule for some minimal commitment in order to hold a key. Well informally there always was. And I also told it to members to the RCD team I gave a key to that the distributing keys is not for the sake of distributing keys, but to have other players open the Den´s independently of myself or cdmoreland while we both can trust that those players will take care of the place and hold the space that differentiates the Den´s from a random NPC place. Cause actually in the Den´s you have a barkeeper and often also a cook you actually can talk to and you won´t get an automated response or no response at all. And you have this barkeeper around and the player on keyboard with only a little afk minute to go to the toilet or so once in a while for the whole time of the public opening.

So how can it work to make the team larger in a way that actually leads to more opening times with a real player char around at the bar? And how can this work with some minimal long term commitment so that it can actually be a team. Of course RL always goes first, but if the team members change every week it will not be a consistent RP experience either.

So I hope I could clarify on some aspects that as long as I play PS made the RCD a special place to me. Back when Dannae opened it, she was also marvellous at holding this special space players with chars visiting the Den´s could feel so comfortable with. But in the end was far as I noticed also for her it was a single player project as I only saw Dannae opening it.

An 24/7 open RCD with no player in it holding this space would not be the same. Maybe there are good ideas such kind of RCD can also work, but also in that case I think that it needs to be more than just a random place without anyone feeling any care or responsibility for it. So I think even in that case it needs this as Rigwyn said rare kind of players dedicating time and energy to it, and then its important to take into account those players who do the actual work and give those players some good say as well as to how the place looks like.

Also I am keen to read about any suggestions on how to cross the timezone gap. Sometimes it worked that Damola gave her shift to another player to extend RCD opening time, but granted the current RCD team members that I brought into the team are mostly in my time zone. I am willing to engange in some out of game RP time-gapped with PM or preferably mail with interested people. Maybe it can work if the RCD team will have someone responsible for each majorly differentiating time zone with players who want to open the Den´s. So that I and cdmoreland can know to have an accountable player to talk to in case of issues.

[Damola]

To clarify even further: I think public openings in the Den´s are somewhat like mini events. They are events in the sense that one or two players, could even be three, commit to holding a certain space for several hours. But there are also more spontaneous than bigger events cause they do not require much preparation.

Actually I want to see more of these mini events that can work with a smaller amount of commitment than the big ones. I think one reason that big events are so rare, that some players may not see, is that they are a lot of work! I have seen this with the Delicacy Contest and Pie Eating Contest event marathon. Kabitar and I spend hours in preparing these.

Thats why I appreciate the regular market openings as a mini event as well, although I didn´t attend to one with Damola yet. I really like to tough.

Some ideas for the Den´s for mini events with a certain topic I have:

- A nice Xiosia thanksgiving party. Its just about every char brings some of the harvest. Some cooks attend and then we RP it all spontaneously. Thats the one I want to go about next. And I am willing to hold the space for that event even alone with just Damola. It can also be a semi-regular event.

- Some dancing lessons from a dance teacher. Anyone wants to step up? It can very easy to prepare. Agree on some time. Think of some dance or steps to teach. Invite. And then just do the RP. I asked Dannae about it once.

- Other events can be a cook wanting to try to cook a new dish and seeking for feedback about it or an artist wanting to perform some new songs for an audience.

If I trust the player who proposes things like that, I may even also just hand out a key temporarily just for this event and allow for the player to hold the space even when I am absent. Right now I only have I think one key left, but with a good reasoning I think I can get more keys. And I could also ask a key back in a friendly way from some long term inactive RCD team members. Ideally the core RCD team would be big enough to always have a bar keeper around at those events tough .

[Cairn]

Thank you again for your wonderful ideas, Damola!

Here's my two cents on the piece:

I really like the idea of the RCD as a 'mini events center' of sorts, where when it's open it's always special to the players somehow. That raises a host of questions, though, which you've already brought up:
-Do we have enough players to do these events? (Sounds like between Damola and cdmoreland, perhaps not)
-Are these players in different time zones?
-Are there keys for people who can get involved?

That's cent #1

It also raises the question of: Is this really what we want to use the RCD for, now? It may have been good at one point, when the guild members and the people who ran it were more active and scattered through different time zones to accommodate, but now it may not be realistic.
-Should the overall purpose of the RCD be as a 'mini events center'?
-Should the RCD become re-purposed as a player-ran bar of sorts instead, with the possibility of both spontaneous AND pre-planned events?
-Should we purpose the RCD for something different?

I'd like to here your thoughts, friends.


P.S.
If the RCD was repurposed as a player-ran bar/events center, it would provide a lot of opportunities. It could be left open 24/7 style to accommodate all players in different timezones, and then also players like Damola or others can be given keys to plan events, and then lock the RCD down for a few hours to plan/redecorate as necessary. Then, different players can unlock it and reopen it for public access as soon as the event is over or Damola can leave it unlocked, etc. when all of the decorations have been safely stored.

Thoughts?

[Demagul Riwe]

Currently, with the default status for the RCD being closed, any time one of these "mini-events" is hosted there it almost always has to be quite controlled in a way. Like when it's open, it's only open for a very specific purpose. I like the idea of having it open by default, but can be closed up when necessary for redecorating. That way these "mini-events" will come naturally and spontaneously. Of course, prior planning would be nice so people actually know about them, but with it open, who knows what RP could arise!

[Ascomanni]

It seems to me that Damola has put in a tremendous amount of effort in establishing the RCD as a safe zone for her RP that caters to a very specific field. Now what I am arguing is not that this does not have a place in PS, far from it. What I question is if the RCD is the appropriate setting for this.

The RCD is at the heart of Hydlaa which is in turn at the very center of the world. Everything revolves around that spot. It seems logical to me that such real estate would be better suited to a very broad and all encompassing RP set. This location should be at its core a hot spot for finding and generating RPs and finding other players across all TZ’s. To do this, it being open, with the exception of the special occasions all ready mentioned, is a necessity. If fact it being closed should be so rare that when it is, it should draw excitement and speculation IC as to why.

Now perhaps this new identity for the RCD is why there have been poorer turn outs and why people have been less than excited to work the place. Also having a larger staff but only allowing them to work when the same people that currently open it are on perpetuates the current problem. The setting and employees should be as diverse as those that frequent the place and allow the identity to grow organically. This will increase agency for the players visiting and those that elect to take a stake in the Den itself.

As I said before, I do think there is a demand for this non-confrontational brand of RP. I would go a step further and suggest that perhaps a designated area where there is a strict G-PG level is enforced. The current state or RP that is trending (At least as I have observed in my TZ) is often pressing the PG-PG-13 limits and flirts into R. It is not uncommon to see something that may even skip R and flirt with explicit material.

This is neither suitable nor palatable for some and they should not have to make a choice to be exposed to it or quit which is, I fear, is happening and undermines the potential for a younger more energetic player base. Many PS players are of the age that they are have/have kids. PS, in my mind, should be a fun place where everyone, including parents and child, should be able to have fun together without fear.

One area that may be suitable for a more general audience setting might be the tutorial area and allow it to be self sufficient. A G-PG restriction in the tutorial area should produce the happier, more friendly side of PS to great those looking to enter our community and may be beneficial in this regards as well. Maybe the equipment there does not require a book to craft but can only reach a lower quality, say q 150 so players that choose not to venture out in the less restrictive content area can still experience the game without have to go for the basic quests. A lower quality on this equipment would be designed to prevent abuse from those seeking to exploit this area and its equipment.

I know much of this is half formed at best, but in summation, it comes down to location in my mind. Much like all roads leading to Rome, all roads and paths lead to the RCD (or at least past). We should as a community should be mindful of this and try to keep the most central locations for the core of the game, the highest trafficked areas for the greatest common denominator amongst the majority of players.

[Damola]

For now I exercise myself in non-reaction and let others express their oppinions, but there is one point I want to clarify, since it appears to me as a gross misunderstanding:

Now perhaps this new identity for the RCD is why there have been poorer turn outs and why people have been less than excited to work the place. Also having a larger staff but only allowing them to work when the same people that currently open it are on perpetuates the current problem. […]

I *never* required that I am on when some other member of the team opens the place. Actually I even just wrote with some trust, I may even temporarily give a key to some player who just wants to hold a one-time event there, and is not a member of the team.

[Rigwyn]

With regard to the OP, there is still the Stonehead tavern and the one in scaly-wingy reptitile town. Both are wide open for players to use at will. At least, I don't think Illyisa et al are haunting the stonehead anymore. I could be wrong.