Author Topic: A Timer for the DR Exit  (Read 3584 times)

bloodedIrishman

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2010, 01:38:06 pm »
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but now you're missing the whole point of the thread, which is not at all to stop people from abusing suicide, but to (since rules won't be made) find a way to have players acknowledge the death of their characters as an important event opposite to a 2 minutes trip

The two are tied together.

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It's about how people do RP it, not about the mechanics (even if they were proposed as a solution)

Mechanics are the best way to influence role play. Changing mechanics is the solution.
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I personally couldn't care less about suicide abuse - I'd gladly use it OOC to have more time to RP, but characters popping up next to me 5 minutes right after having been killed IC freak me out.

Repeated suicide abuse is OOC for the vast majority of characters. This contributes to the 'no worries' attitude and non-settings compliance surrounding death. This is chief problem discussed in this thread. Subsequently this thread's purpose is to find a solution and make death an ordeal that affects role play.

You don't know what your talking about.

bloodedIrishman

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2010, 02:58:00 pm »
1) Suicide abuse and players not acknowledging death as an important event are tied together.

2) Difference of opinion.

3) I'm not re-explaining. If you don't get it you don't get it.

4) I dont give a crap who you are. Stay nice or dont. If I dont agree with you I will tell you.

Illysia

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2010, 05:01:43 pm »
I'll concede on the gibberish part. I still think it would be funny though. ;D But keep in mind that anytime a change is made people have adjustment issues. It was a pain and half when they expanded the DR but once you know where you are going, it's a quick as it was before the expansion.

Rules are all nice and good, but that was tried with the RP covenant and you see where that went. Technically the settings are the rules and they get ignored. It always comes back down to how do you enforce when someone always says "But hey!" Accommodations are easily planned for new players. I'd even go as far as a year long grace period.

As for bugs, that is trickier but just hunting in general... Umm, yeah... It's the same reason you don't just go lion hunting on the weekends. It's dangerous. Death is not only a real posibility when hunting, it really puts a dent in your day ;) . However, I will concede that alternatives to hunting are not quite good enough yet in terms of experience gaining and money. I do like Sarva's suggestion though. I didn't know if something that specific could be done though.

Aside from mechanics issues, the basic underlying problem is that RPs (players) often treat dying like a slap on the wrist. I thought Dakkru's curse was an inconvenience but not enough apparently to make people avoid yo-yoing in and out. I can see dying and coming back but it's the yo-yoing constantly that is making things difficult. Having somebody come back from the dead is weird.... "like OMG it's a dead guy!" not "Hey bob, nice to see you." This would be the case even if you knew the person.

Death is a very serious thing and if a person is constantly dying it makes it hard for others to RP consistently if they bother to follow settings.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 05:55:11 pm by neko kyouran »

novacadian

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2010, 05:25:32 pm »
No doubt others have run into MUDs that use life essence. Each death will take a large chuck of life essence. Cleric/Healers can give life essence when high enough level and each character slowly gains life essence during online time. Should you get caught in negative life essence then it is perma death.

You want the death experience and some respect from the players surrounding it? Introduce Life Essence and Perma Death. It may foster a lot more RP battling too! :)

- Nova, the no nonsense Dungeon Master

P.S. Dropping all inventory (including tria) on the ground prior to sending the dead character to the DR would be another option. Heck including them both is ok with me.  :devil:
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 05:34:28 pm by novacadian »

Illysia

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2010, 06:31:22 pm »
I like this idea actually. Never played a MUD but a fair way of implementing permadeath would work. If you are crazy enough to keep testing the limits of how low you can go then your character should die as you stopped using reason. People won't necessarily self regulate but the risk of major loss is always a game changer. ;)

Dropping inventory could present some rather tricky problems where guildhouse keys are concerned. Inventory dropping would have to exclude some items, but weapons, tria, and trinkets should be fair game. In mabinogi you can drop things if you die and if you choose to respawn in a city, you can retrieve your items from lost and found at a price.

Maybe it would work if when you die and come back you can get your stuff from a lost and found in the nearest city for a price. Or maybe upon dying, the death guardian will take some of your stuff for his own purposes but will let you buy them back at a cost or do a favor (quest) for him.

Or maybe permanent stat loss would work (you would be able to build back up, but you would have to. :devil: ). Not major, but if you loose a level or three ;) in everything but intelligence every time you leave (and maybe start loosing in intelligence for yo-yoing) then maybe that would slow the amount of people dying. If nothing it might make people consider RPing recovering. And it might open up a new plot line for people as you could attempt assassinations and whatnot much more easily during these times.

Exceptions to this might be dakkru worshipers, possibly black flame worshipers, and those with a decent amount of dark way training.

Also, those with high factions with their god's might get a bit of "dying forgiveness" from their gods and would be one of the reasons for justifying worship. I believe it used to say in the atheist description that they weren't granted any succor from the gods when they died since they didn't worship. There would have to be consequence and partial exemption for that to be valid.

Geoni

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2010, 07:24:53 pm »
-I agree the suicide abuse should be punished (Perhaps in the method Sarva mentioned)
-The whole 24 hour waiting period for each player wouldn't really work with the new players. (perhaps they shouldn't get hit with any waiting period of sorts until they have played so many hours in game.)
-Dakkru's curse should be worse, I agree. I think that it should be increased to at least an hour, but we would probably need separate spawn points for those who sit to wait the curse off. Being under dakkru's curse should be harder on the characters: Scatterbrained(very low stats), can't run, can't summon, and can't cast magic.
-A neat idea would be that characters can be spawned in any place in Yliakum (I guess exclude underwater and in the howling well) I'm not super educated on how the spawn points work so like many of my ideas it probably won't work.  :(

I agree that after-death happenings should be harder than they are right now. Something should be done.


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Sarva

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2010, 08:46:51 pm »
Note new characters currently skip the DR for their first 15 hours in game.

Sen

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2010, 03:30:28 am »
No doubt others have run into MUDs that use life essence. Each death will take a large chuck of life essence. Cleric/Healers can give life essence when high enough level and each character slowly gains life essence during online time. Should you get caught in negative life essence then it is perma death.

Does this work well in the MUDs? This sounds like a very good idea for me (except perma death). Furthermore may of course only others cast a spell on you that give the life essence (or however we'll call it) back and not yourself.
It should also be a spell that can only rarely be casted, else would there be too many nice people who willingly give everyone their life essence back and everything is about like before ;) .

Sen
.....also a saddle that won't pinch the tail. One day!

Irgendwer

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2010, 07:00:46 am »
Well, people will use /die to get back to Hydlaa as long as it provides a shortcut. The easiest way to shut that loophole is by spawning them again on the same spot (well ... not nescessarily in the eagle chasm or the dlayo pit) or at least on the same map they originally died on.

On a side note: Instead of thinking about Suicide abuse, it may also be necessary to think about travel times. Really, going about 6 times back and forth between Oja and BD just to finish Lorythia's quest can hardly be called fun. A spell that would allow you to set one beacon (at a time) and teleport to that beacon from any location might be a very handy thing.

khoridor

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2010, 08:20:41 am »
Yet another thread about punishing everybody because of some abusers, and also because some people want to force their understanding of death on others.

1) Let the DR expand. It is supposed to be long to get out; it will be.

2) If you want to RP your 22th "death" as a traumatic experience, by all means go on, but don't expect everybody to do so.
People break their skull, disappear, and come back some time later. That's the PS universe. One can either build his RPs accordingly, or pretend that coming back would be unexpected, in which case a player should agree to stay out of game for long enough a time.

RPers who expand implemented features to simulate what they think PS will be should take their own responsibilities. Other players do not want cheap tricks added to mechanics that would make their game annoying.

Hrothbert

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2010, 09:27:37 am »
I'll concede on the gibberish part. I still think it would be funny though.

Now I had suggested the gibberish in another thread as a cumulative effect, e.g. .01 second added for every trip, that way for the earlier players they would never notice this as it would be too short of time and basically waiting to load would eat that up, but for the players that abuse the current death system they would quickly notice after their 400th time taking their shortcut they find that they can't talk to an NPC to sell their wares or finish a quest. The suggestion came from the settings for the DR which state that multiple trips and multiplied time spent there gradually wears away at a persons sanity, therefore when returning to Yliakum one would have an adjustment time to get their sanity back.

Though enforcing this might have some people very angry I thought that it might be a more unique way of dealing with resurrection. But if it were enforced I see no difference in that than the current filters which automatically convert things like 'c ya' to 'see you later'.

It was just a thought so that is my two cents you all are having a great discussion on this anyways.


novacadian

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2010, 11:28:32 am »
Does this work well in the MUDs? ... Furthermore may of course only others cast a spell on you that give the life essence (or however we'll call it) back and not yourself. It should also be a spell that can only rarely be casted, else would there be too many nice people who willingly give everyone their life essence back and everything is about like before ;) .

It is my belief that it worked/works well. There were many counter balances to it. The death experience itself was a fairly long experience for a MUD. In it the different gods of that world would talk to you and the character would be in a ghostly form and could not use any commands like tells; so as to ask for equipment retrieval etc.. It was a cooling down period for the loss of equipment, sometimes stats and experience points.  Death was not something to be taken lightly.

The healer/cleric would be giving their own Life Essence; so it was not a small thing to ask or receive from another character. If done it would often only be enough so that the character could avoid perma death for one more time in the future. Obviously with that system there was no advantage of casting Life Essense Spell upon ones self.

Once through the mini-experience of DR the ghostly form of the character would be returned to their Guild if they were a member of one; or else the closest temple/church in the area in which they died. They could then pray at a time of their choice to take bodily form again. Before then the ghost could move about the mud and talk, etc.; yet could not do any physical interacting with the objects; both living and inanimate.

My expectation of the DR on PS was that it would be a randomly generated area each death; so that the maze of escape would be unique each time and that there would be no other characters to interact with and help you from DR. Each death in DR (yeah my character fell twice while there) would randomize the experience again. If that were the case my character would still likely be there!

Another balance which may smooth out things in PS is to offer high level healers a Raise Dead Spell. The dead character could remain at the place of death; appearing above their corpse in a similarly ghostly form as mentioned above ; until they do the equivalent of praying or walking into the light. In PS that would send them to DR with their corpse which would merge the two into bodily form again.

Should a Healer be brought to the corpse before that happens then they could try to perform a raise dead on the character to save them from the maze of DR. My recommendation would be to put some level of uncertainty of success as is the case in most D&D like rule sets. The possibility of Raise Dead would exist until the server was rebooted or the player of the dead character logged off. Either situation would find them in DR at next login. As a ghostly form could move about PS it would add some great RP of having the ghost seek out a Healer to be able to raise them from the dead.

Just some thoughts to toss around.

- Nova

Illysia

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2010, 04:01:19 pm »
@khoridor: Regardless of how often people mention it, this thread is about RP not mechanics abuse. You miss the basic point if you think of it as just forcing opinions on someone else. The current, common way of RPing death lacks consistency, if you can't see the need for consistency then you are missing basic points of "persistent world", "settings" and role playing with others instead of just writing your own story. Without everybody being on the same page, you can't tell a consistent story. Choppy, incoherent stories are usually not good ones. The point is to find a way to get everybody on the same page in regards to the settings. If players have trouble with the settings then one has to wonder why they are playing this game. The only RP games that are completely are open ended are chat rooms.  ;) Every RP setting/group has guidelines, it eases people interacting with each other.


@Hrothbert: Enforcing always makes people angry. It's human nature to resist limiting forces, however, something needs to be done to keep things settings compliant. Settings is the only thing keeping people RPing about the same world. This makes it very important to keep everybody on the same page. Sometimes more intrusive measures are needed to grab people's attention. ;D

@Novacadian: It would have to be a bit different in PS as ghosts in that sense don't exist. At least not from dead people. Your body is transferred into the DR upon death and transferred out upon resurrection. It is suppose to be maze like, extensive and have randomly appearing exit points but that is long in the future. However, having to raise people in temples would be a good idea. It would provide a centralized spawn point for the followers of that faith and maybe add on places connected with masters of Crystal Way (that's the one that's suppose to have the ability to raise the dead)

kaerli2

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2010, 05:49:41 pm »
While we're dealing with death: guess what? PvP is so bloody filled with entropy that people should stop insisting on using it to settle matters.  Here's a hint: the only reason you think RPdueling sucks is because you don't know what you're doing.  Hint: read Duraza's thread on the matter :D

Sarras Volcae

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Re: A Timer for the DR Exit
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2010, 01:32:24 am »
NO!!!