to all those in support of open PKing (my first last and only opinion)

[Jakob]

Or give the lawkeepers the power to attack anyone that has been reported for a crime.  If they are defeated by the lawkeepers, instead of spawning in the DR, they spawn in the prison for their term.  If they can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt (or bribe a corrupt player enough Tria) then the person who accused them will be given twice the time.

[Ragnar-GD]

Originally posted by Kaseijin

just one thing...if you implement pking ...and criminal for sake of harsh reality of common honest people, you have to fully implament government and police and jail (remember PS world is structured one not an anarchy) for sake of the harsh reality of a criminal.
if you going to do the crime be prepared to do the time

Ok, Kaseijin, then let\'s try a \"Gedankenexperiment\", to see if your method counters the effect of Player Killing:

1. A newbie enters the game.
2. A griefer waits at some special location, and kills the character (or any other newbie-character) over and over.
3. The newbie thinks \"what a !\", then \"who helps me?\", then wants to leave PS, to never come back again.
4. But, ho!, lucky day: A Gamemaster comes around, and then:
5. Makes the character of the griefer loose a hand, and go to jail for three realtime-hours.

Everything fine?

Ok, the griefer then does this:
1. He intentionally drops his \"imprisoned\" character immediately
2. logs of the game
3. drops his internet-connection
4. logs into the internet again, so to gain a new IP from his provider
5. gets a new e-Mail account at a freemail-provider
6. logs in with a new fake name
7. makes a new character
8. hides with this new character at the same place again
9. has fun with newbies again.

Now, how do you stop this griefer from haunting Planeshift? Hacking off the hand of his character didn\'t help that much... if my Gedankenexperiement is right...

[Azerelus]

Of course the logical way to go is to make it to where a Newbie is unattackable until Level X. By that level the newbie should know his/her character and the game well enough to engage in a fair fight. It would be a two way street of course, no new character could attack another player until they reach Level X. Which means they will have to spend a great deal of time killing rats, running quests and leveling their character before they can grieve, pk, etc.

In the instance that you speak, sure the griever could log off, reboot his/her system, get a new IP addy, but if they have to level up to 5, 10 or 20 before they can attack they will be less likely to go through all of that effort. I would assume that what ever Level is decided upon would require a few days of playing, more time/effort to play a new character than it would be to sit/work through any punishment phase for a criminal activity.

[Jakob]

Also, the Plaza could be made a non-Pk zone (which would incidentaly take care of the challenging problem) and a sign could be put up on the way out of the city that the roads to other cities are lawless places full of thieves and bandits, so they should go prepared.

[Kaseijin]

Originally posted by Ragnar-GD
Ok, the griefer then does this:
1. He intentionally drops his \"imprisoned\" character immediately
2. logs of the game
3. drops his internet-connection
4. logs into the internet again, so to gain a new IP from his provider
5. gets a new e-Mail account at a freemail-provider
6. logs in with a new fake name
7. makes a new character
8. hides with this new character at the same place again
9. has fun with newbies again.

Now, how do you stop this griefer from haunting Planeshift? Hacking off the hand of his character didn\'t help that much... if my Gedankenexperiement is right...

anyone willing to do all this(it takes at least 15 mins) for one measly kill is an idiot... i mean he would would spend more time out of game registering then in game...plus his new character would be weak so he couldn\'t pick on anybody....and if he was to spend three-four hours building up his character he wouldn\'t be so quick to throw it away just to kill a newbie. I deem you objection unsatisfactory.
and i didn\'t mention cutting off hands...that\'s going to far.

[Ragnar-GD]

Originally posted by Kaseijin
anyone willing to do all this(it takes at least 15 mins) for one measly kill is an idiot... i mean he would would spend more time out of game registering then in game...plus his new character would be weak so he couldn\'t pick on anybody....and if he was to spend three-four hours building up his character he wouldn\'t be so quick to throw it away just to kill a newbie. I deem you objection unsatisfactory.

Well, such idiots *do* exist. My \"Gedankenexperiment\" is only experimental on how such people would behave to be able to do this in PlaneShift. I\'m not making the description of such people up for myself, I\'m citing from staff at EverQuest that gets paid to deal with such idiots (you can get such descriptions at the Terra Nova Blog of Richard Bartle).
So, it is out of the question that such people exist, and they exist in bigger numbers than you wish for, and that they *can* do and *regularily* do such things, and it is also clear that it is easier in Planeshift then in EverQuest, as EverQuest has much more anti-griefer mechanisms then PlaneShift even intends to implement.

So what I\'m trying to find out, is, what can the devs of PS actually do, to get to the level of protection of EverQuest at least, without the ressources of commercial funding.
The idiots that have been banned from EverQuest (or any other game) are still running around, and guess what I expect when they recognize a game that does not even cost money, and cannot effectively ban?

I\'m not expecting you to have an answer on this, as it really is a non-trivial question - but not taking into consideration these idiots is really calling for trouble.

[Ragnar-GD]

Originally posted by Azerelus
Of course the logical way to go is to make it to where a Newbie is unattackable until Level X. By that level the newbie should {be able to} engage in a fair fight. It would be a two way street of course, no new character could attack another player until they reach Level X. Which means they will have to spend a great deal of time {...} before they can grieve, pk, etc.

The intention of a griefer is, by definition, to make you feel bad. Killing your character CAN be a way, but if they can do it without, they will do so happily.

Originally posted by Azerelus
In the instance that you speak, sure the griever could log off, reboot his/her system, get a new IP addy, but if they have to level up to 5, 10 or 20 before they can attack they will be less likely to go through all of that effort. I would assume that what ever Level is decided upon would require a few days of playing, more time/effort to play a new character than it would be to sit/work through any punishment phase for a criminal activity.

Yes, a level-barrier is a good design-barrier, the effect you describe (too long time before they can wreak havoc, so they get bored before, and leave to play elsewhere) is a valid and effective method.

But what is with Players who NEVER want this to happen to them? Should they not be playing Planeshift, because from level X on it could happen to them anywhere but on the plaza?

I\'m just pushing it...

[Ragnar-GD]

Originally posted by Jakob
Also, the Plaza could be made a non-Pk zone (which would incidentaly take care of the challenging problem) and a sign could be put up on the way out of the city that the roads to other cities are lawless places full of thieves and bandits, so they should go prepared.

The idea of \"giving approval for PvP\" indirectly by entering a \"clearly labeled danger zone\" is good, as can be shown by the successful implementation i.e. in age of camelot. It is fun, and noone gets pi**ed when his character is attacked, and dies.

But the idea of \"griefing\" is not the same as \"PvP\". Giefers will NOT by any means give you a fair chance, any warning, or anything.
A \"fair\" PvP can mean your character gots a strike from behind, and is dead. Ok, that is the same. But then, a fair Player will say \"Sorry\", and look out for another interesting fight.
A Griefer will, instead, wait for you at your respawn-point, and kill you six times in a row, and taunt you meanwhile, laugh at you, whatever.

So, the question is not:
\"What can we do to enable fair PvP without too much of a hassle?\"

as there are many good answers on that, but:

\"What can we do to quickly identify the idiots, and how to keep them permanently out of the game?\"

(Don\'t take me wrong: I\'m pro PvP! Anyone who likes to duel, single or in team, should be able to, without filling in two sides of approval-forms... having my characters slaughtered in i.e. deathmatches doesn\'t bother me, as long as the others give me a chance to respawn and get some fair shotgun... but this simly is not my subject here... ;-)

[WizardsRule]

Think about it. A sign saying\" O kill all you like over here but not over there.\" It sounds ridiculous.  Where is the logic?

[Ragnar-GD]

Originally posted by WizardsRule
Think about it. A sign saying\" O kill all you like over here but not over there.\" It sounds ridiculous.  Where is the logic?

\"Clearly labeled\" is not meaning signposts - DAoC just has zones where you can sure to be in PvP area. Did you actually play Dark Age of Camelot? I can\'t say if there is a free trial, but if, you may have a try (only to look for inspiration, and then come back to PS, of course... ;-)
I do not play it, I just visited it for trying out, for a month (like I did with almost all 3D-MMORPGs), and that\'s quite some time ago now.

[Mystiqq]

First post...

Anyways, im more of Ultima player myself and ive spent enough time in Ultima Online to know that there should be viable way to be \"bad\". Though i never was a \"red\" or a murderer, but lot of times i was getting killed by such. It added whole new \"risk vs reward\" when going out to \"explore\". This is definetely a must.

Why not use UO style \"guarded zones\"/guards?

IMO i liked the Ultima Online system, but training skills such as lumberjacking (etc) wasnt fun, except on some customized servers. I hope PS will make skill training fun and not just boring/repeatitive \"multitasking\".

Cheers!

[Shadowrak]

pking should not be total kill everyone there should be a reason for doing so.

You should get a list of people that have killed you and you should be a allowed to kill them.

you should also be allowed to kill people who steal from you if you notice who it was or people who commit other such crimes against you.

You should also definatly be allowed to loot their body.

[WizardsRule]

I say we should have the same rules as .hack//sign and that is no rules

[Mystiqq]

pking should not be total kill everyone there should be a reason for doing so.

Its like robbing banks, they do it because of the money. Naturally PKing is to kill and loot. Personally im not going to play a online rpg that is all \"happy happy joy joy\" and rainbows and flowers...

You should get a list of people that have killed you and you should be a allowed to kill them.

Im referring to UO system here. Killing someone turns you into a murderer (red, pk or whatever) which means you are free \"meat\" to anyone. That means that anyone can attack you/kill you without them turning into a criminal/murderer them selfs.

Also \"guards\" will attack/kill any murderers within \"guard zone\" just by yelling \"guards!\" if you see one that is...

To turn back into a non-murderer (blue) you had to wait sometime (time * kills) without killing anyone. Some sort of a \"murder counter\".

I cant remember if UO had any system where \"NPC reds\" wouldnt attack them but i think there should be \"hostile cities\" where only red can run around without getting attacked. Im referring to cities without guards but cities where only reds are able to freely \"explore\".

you should also be allowed to kill people who steal from you if you notice who it was or people who commit other such crimes against you.

Of course, like in UO, failed attempt to steal from someone will mark them as criminal (grey) and by yelling guards they will get killed. That is IF they are within guard zone.
I remember that being criminal also means that you are pretty much \"free meat\" at least towards the one the crime was done to.

You should also definatly be allowed to loot their body.

Yep.

Though i hated (in UO) people that steal your loot from your monster that you killed. Though there was some system that \"flagged\" anyone as criminal if they looted stuff from creature you killed, which i think is the way it should be. Though even that isnt completely problem free...

The game should be as free as possible. Both ways (evil or good) should be viable paths, both with its pro\'s and con\'s.

[Burning Monkey]

Well if we copied the WoW system, where there are servers where players can kill each other but more servers where you cant.
Simple as that.
Any1 who wants to kill can join a PvP server at his own risk.